posted on November 9, 2000 03:17:46 AM new
Last month I had a customer notify me that a package sent by mail did not arrive. I told the customer that he could fill out an insurance claim form and get a full refund. The customer refused to fill out a claim. Instead, he filed a fraud complaint with Paypal.
Paypal asked for proof of shipment. I could not provide this because there is no documentation. (It was a $12.99 item.) However, the item was insured by U-Pic.
Paypal has now locked my account. I'll have to pay for this item out of my own pocket even though it was insured. At the time of the complaint, Paypal required users to first file an insurance claim, but that requirement has since disappeared from their terms of use.
Paypal is holding several hundred dollars of mine in a locked account over a $12 dispute. What's even more shocking is that any payments coming into the account are automatically flagged as completed. That means that I can't refuse the payments, and the senders can't cancel them and get their money back either. I know from one customer's report that Paypal is going ahead and charging the money to customers' credit cards, without my even accepting the payments. Then the money goes into my locked account. In this way, several hundred dollars have accumulated, mostly late pays from auctions that ended weeks ago.
I sent the complainer a refund via Paypal, but somehow the transaction was never recorded. Perhaps I can't send money from a locked account. So I wrote to Paypal support and told them to go ahead and refund. I've heard nothing back and my account is still locked.
Paypal has not abided by its own terms of use. I suppose Paypal figures that if they change the terms of use every day, then they can do whatever they want. Now Paypal is accepting money in my name and preventing me from accessing it. My customers are getting charged without my having an option to refuse payment.
This goes beyond following the terms of use. I believe what Paypal is doing is illegal. I will be filing a formal complaint against Paypal for online fraud as soon as I can find the link. If this is not resolved quickly, I will take the matter to small claims court. I live in the same county as Paypal so there should be no jurisdictional problems.
People, this can happen to you! All it takes is one $10 item lost in the mail. You will be forced to send out packages to customers for weeks with no money coming in. Beware of Paypal!!
posted on November 9, 2000 03:46:03 AM new
Twinsoft -
Cite the phrase from the TOS (if you can figure out which one was in force at the time of the transaction) where it says the buyer and seller MUST make several atttempts at solving the problem.
And from YOUR end, you can start a lost mail trace. If they refuse to sign it, it's pretty convincing that they are not cooperative.
Get a lawyer to send them a letter on their letterhead, ordering them to live up to their public statements and cease and desist this frivolous banning access to hundreds of dollars over a $12 dispute (what happened to the locking of only the disputed amount?).
And, since you are local, call the local TV station that has a "problem colver" or "consumer action" reporter. They can usually shake things loose real fast.
posted on November 9, 2000 04:19:27 AM new
Thanks for those suggestions. I told Paypal several times that the customer wouldn't fill out an insurance claim form. At the time this began, Paypal's ToU specifically stated that the customer must fill out an insurance claim form if the item was insured. Paypal has not responded to my comment. However, now that requirement has disappeared from the ToU page.
After reviewing threads in the "Partners" forum here at AW, I find that I can't send money from a locked account. So my own attempt to refund the money to the customer was unsuccessful. When I told Paypal that I had sent money to the complainer, they didn't even point this out to me. They only told me, "You didn't refund the money." Not what I'd call a helpful response.
The phrase "we make money on the float" keeps going through my mind. I wonder how many thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars are now being held in locked accounts simply because someone complained the item didn't arrive. It seems Paypal has no incentive to fix this problem. After all, they make more money off the locked account.
I understand that buyers and Paypal should be protected. (Although in this case I believe the customer was scamming.) And the amount of the money they are holding won't bankrupt me. But this seems like such a blatant case of money-grabbing that I'm just plain PO'ed. I really think Paypal needs a good spanking.
posted on November 9, 2000 04:19:36 AM new
Maybe PayPalDamon can help with this one.
This is, at the core, a customer service issue. I'm wondering what the "non-delivery" situation really is and what the U-Pic insurance involves. Did you use delivery confirmation? It is largely a waste of money to insure items up to about $15. What steps were taken along the way.
TOS doesn't prevent customers from acting stupid. They usually don't read or follow TOS anyway.
posted on November 9, 2000 04:25:11 AM new
If the item was insured by U-Pic, would it do any good to photocopy or scan that page from your manifest? That would be good enough proof for U-Pic, no?
Adding:
Does PayPal specify what they consider acceptable proof that an item was sent? Does this mean that all items shipped that are paid via PayPal must be sent with DC? Is a PO receipt good enough?...
[ edited by debbielennon on Nov 9, 2000 04:39 AM ]
posted on November 9, 2000 04:48:36 AM new
As I wrote above, there was no proof the item was shipped. Filling out 100 delivery confirmation slips per week and getting them all hand-stamped at the post office is not practical for the $10-$20 items I sell.
U-Pic insurance is very easy. I just send them a copy of my monthly records and pay a bulk fee of $.40 cents per package. If an item is lost, they provide a claim form. Once the form is submitted a refund can be issued. I automatically insure even inexpensive items because too many seem to get lost in the mail. It seems to me this is sufficient precaution for both seller and buyer.
As far as terms of use, yes I'm upset because by any accounting this should have been taken care of through insurance. That was plainly stated by Paypal but once again they have changed their rules. Paypal doesn't abide by their own ToU and changes those terms from day to day. This is unprofessional, a discourtesy to customers, and I expect what Paypal is doing is illegal. I want to emphasize that I can not refuse payments, nor can customers cancel their payments once made to Paypal. (And as Heather pointed out in another thread, if my customers initiate a chargeback, then their accounts will be locked too.)
posted on November 9, 2000 04:59:34 AM new
Debbie, U-Pic is very simple. There is no manifest. I just send them a copy of my records and a check for the amount due. There's no "proof." U-Pic is a godsend because I just submit a list of aucton numbers and a check. I haven't tried yet, but I have no reason to believe there would be a problem getting a refund for a lost item.
Again, I feel that by all sccounts, the insurance should be enough to settle the matter. This is (or was) also according to Paypal's rules. The customer refused to fill out the insurance claim. I suspect if anyone is scamming, it is the customer. Paypal's solution is to hold hundreds of dollars of mine indefinitely, while obligating me to complete my eBay transactions.
posted on November 9, 2000 05:00:33 AM new
ONE - in 5 plus years I have NEVER had a customer refuse to fill out a claim form, BUT I use either UPS or USPS. Sounds more like your problem is with U-PIC not PayPal.
I know about but, don't use U-Pic, but apparently there is some problem for customers regarding filling out their form.
THAT is one of the reason I use USPS or UPS insurance - there is PROOF of shipment with their insurance.
LOOK at it from PayPal's position, you have no proof of shipment -
When the Christmas season starts I normally put "signature required" on all UPS, and start putting delivery confirmation on USPS....there are some less than honest buyers who claim items didn't arrive when actually they did.
posted on November 9, 2000 05:36:51 AM new
jwpc - just curious. Do you charge your eBay buyers for the Delivery Confirmation receipt or just include it at your expense? Thanks
posted on November 9, 2000 05:53:02 AM new
Twinsoft:
I thought you closed your paypal account on October 12th, "On the plus side, my Paypal account is empty and the account is closed" and also opened a different checking account, "Just today I closed my checking account and opened a new one. Paypal is quickly becoming just a bad memory" and were having good results with PayDirect.
What made you decide to go back to PayPal again after your previous experience of them freezing your account?
posted on November 9, 2000 06:30:15 AM new
twinsoft-
Contact magazine_guy for the name of the lawyer who's looking into a class action suit against PayPal. It can't hurt to add your name to the list. This is ridiculous.
Your customer is being a jerk. As I understand it, the customer doesn't even have to fill out a claim form for U-PIC. All they have to do is send you an e-mail stating they did not receive the package.
Candi from U-PIC, if you're around, please confirm this!
posted on November 9, 2000 12:45:39 PM new
I did close my Paypal account. But a few payments kept trickling in. The payments in the account now are mostly late pays from auctions that ended over a month ago. At that time, the invoice I sent to customers offered Paypal as an acceptable method of payment.
The problem is definitely not with U-Pic. They are great. The only one playing games here is Paypal.
This problem can happen to anyone using Paypal. They ignore their own terms of use and lock your entire account over an inexpensive package that is lost in the mail. Then they continue accepting payments in your name and charge your customers' credit cards immediately, so you have no option but to ship the packages. They will drag this on indefinitely. I told them a week ago to just take the money from my account and pay the customer. It's not worth hasslig over a $12 amount. But my account is still frozen. And Paypal is still making money off the float. How many millions of dollars of customers' money is Paypal tieing up like this?
posted on November 9, 2000 02:33:29 PM new
twinsoft... Why didn't you just refund the buyer's money and file a claim with U-Pic? Vargas says (above) that the buyer does not have to fill out a claim form. If that's true, it seems the problem is not the buyer, or paypal, but you.
posted on November 9, 2000 03:00:13 PM new
I attempted last week to refund the money by transferring from my account to the buyer's account. (Remember, according to Paypal's rules, the buyer should have been required to fill out an insurance claim first.) I didn't get any error message from Paypal but the payment didn't go through. I notified Paypal I had made payment. They didn't even have the courtesy to explain that I couldn't send money from a locked account. They only replied (in a one-sentence email) "you didn't send the money."
A week ago I replied to one of the customer support emails and told them to go ahead and transfer the money, since I can't. I've heard nothing back and my account is still locked. Paypal's site is down at the moment so I can't check, but I have received no reply to my email of a week ago.
I do not think it is wise to send a refund to the customer outside of Paypal. I want to make sure Paypal has a record of the refund so there can be no excuse for more wrangling.
I don't know where Vargas is getting his information. U-pic provides a written form which must be signed by the claimant. It's quite simple. I fill it in. All they must do is sign their name.
"(i)f that's true, it seems the problem is not the buyer, or paypal, but you."
No, that's not true. Maybe it depends how you define "problem." The problem, as I see it, and the potential problem for anyone accepting Paypal payments, is that a customer can write to Paypal and say the package was lost in the mail. Then Paypal will continue accepting payments and charging customers, so sellers must ship packages while being unable to access the payments. Think of shipping out a month's worth of packages while Paypal sits smugly on your account over a $10 dispute. Then Paypal will drag their feet as much as possible. That's exactly what happened here. Forget about what's published on their terms of use page. That's written in sand.
posted on November 10, 2000 07:40:02 PM new
Send a personal check to customer..copy it and also inform them you are taking a copy of all emails (including the one where he refused to fill forms out) to U-Pic and USPS and file paperwork for suspicion of MAIL FRAUD. Then tell them you are getting in touch with their local/or your local police station (whichever it should be) and file a police report. Then call your local legal services (their should be a low cost legal service near you that will help you write a properly formatted letter) and have them write a letter to PayPal demanding proper action of opening up your account at least to everything except this transaction. Send it along with copies of Police report/post office filings/letter/and copy of refund check to customer and tell them it beter be done by such a date or legal action will take place. AND FOLLOW THROUGH! The yellow-bellied two-faced-liars need a swift kick in the groin.
Also anyone who still takes PayPal should write a notarized letter and take it too the bank that no withdrawals should come from any non-in-person transactions. Specifically state that PAYPal/X.com (because I have seen both listed with the deposit into my act) may not withdrawal funds from any acct they may only deposit. I did and they took it and made note of it. Have the bank sign and date it and make a copy of it and keep the original. Id like to see them try to pull funds from my acct like I have heard them doing from others.
posted on November 10, 2000 08:00:54 PM new
I'm getting my information directly from a
U-PIC claim form.
This is what U-PIC requires (after you've filed a tracer with the carrier and after you've received any payment from any insurance provided by the carrier, such as UPS automatic coverage of first $100)
These are direct quotes from the claim form:
"B. Complete one U-PIC CLAIM FORM per claim.
C. Staple to this form the following pieces of information:
(1) A copy of both the carrier's tracer form and the carrier's form with the 'LDI number'
orother identifying claim number.
(2) A copy of the settlement check
(3) A copy of the original invoice to the consignee.
(4) If using USPS a letter stating the loss from the consignee is required before the claim can be processed.
(5) If claim is for damage, please state if repairs are possible, the cost of repair and any salvage value if not repairable.
(6) A copy of monthly insurance report reflecting insured value
(7) A copy of carrier's receipt/waybill unless shipped UPS or Federal Express
(8) Freight charges are only recoverable if the freight value is declared in the insured value.
The claim form U-PIC provided to me does NOT have anything for the customer to fill out nor any line for the customer to sign.
There's a place for only ONE signature -- mine.
edited to add: For an explanation of U-PIC's claims procedure, provided by Candi from U-PIC, see the third entry in the following thread:
posted on November 10, 2000 08:42:55 PM new
Hi,
I have been reading the messages and I too send out about 150 packages per week.
I DO USE delivery conf and I can give you some time saving tips and you will see it does not take any extra time.
First, the post office does not require you to fill out the address part - NO KIDDING!!! They might try to strong arm you into it, but if you ask them to call and check into it, they will confirm that you are right, you do not have to fill it out at all....
This is because it is for your record only! It is not insurance, but a proof of delivery. Which is exactly what you have when you tear off one end..both numbers are the same.
So, I just usually put on the deliv conf slip the persons name & zip....takes a second...you could put the name or just the auction number if you so choose.
posted on November 12, 2000 08:31:06 PM new
I'm glad I read you message. This has never happened to me yet, cross my fingers! I was worried something like that might happen, so every evening I clear out me account maybe leave a dollar in there. You never know. Good luck
