posted on December 29, 2000 02:26:18 PM new
Some time back I posted a thread regarding an auction on which I'd mistakenly bid that only accepted Paypal or Billpoint for payment, neither of which I wanted to use. I ended up using Billpoint in that situation (and vowing to myself to read the payment terms more carefully in the future! )
I just won another auction where the "method of payment" was listed as only Billpoint. Because I'm WISER now I emailed before I bid and asked the seller if he would accept a personal check or a money order. He replied and stated that would be fine, so I bid, and won a couple of auctions. The total amount is about $60.
The seller had 0 feedback when I bid and has since then collected 1 positive. I decided to take a chance on him because the auction page stated that he was located in my home city, which I figured would give me some options if the deal started to go south.
I just received his EOA saying he prefers payment by Paypal, with Billpoint as a second choice. He then goes on to say that if I want to pay by check, I should email him my bank routing number, my account number, the check number, and my driver's license number. It sounds like he wants to do some "electronic check" deal. What I want to do (and what I thought I'd gotten the OK for!) is send him a check.
I don't think I'm comfortable with the "electronic check" deal, particularly because of his low feedback # and the fact that he hasn't given me his name or his address, and I don't like dealing with ANONYMOUS sellers!
I do realize that what he's asking for (excepting my driver's license number) is printed right on the check that I would send him.
I'm trying to figure out how to respond to his EOA.
Does anyone here have any input for me on how this "electronic check" deal works (how is it someone can access funds in my checking account with only this information, and without my signature??) -- what should be my concerns, what's my recourse if I'm overcharged?
posted on December 29, 2000 02:33:46 PM new
You asked the seller if he would accept a personal check or a money order. Send a money order and there is no reason for the bank information.
posted on December 29, 2000 02:38:53 PM new
Hi toolhound -- I probably will email back a request to send a "snail mail" payment. I'd be OK with sending a check, but I have no address for him. Still curious how this "electronic check" thing works.
posted on December 29, 2000 02:40:08 PM new
Don't give out informations such as this under any circumstance. It is an invitation to get burned. Work out some other mode of payment.
***********************************
I'm an optimist, but I don't think it helps much
posted on December 29, 2000 02:41:28 PM new
I am with Toolhound...Money Order.
It is now illegal for a merchant to ask for a printed Drivers License No. on a check, and this person wants ALL THAT INFO over the Internet???? phew!!!!!!!
********************
posted on December 29, 2000 02:46:01 PM new
Send him a copy of the email where he OKayed a check, and tell him that you will mail a check in the old fashioned way.
posted on December 29, 2000 02:48:56 PM new
Now that I look back at his email reply, he only stated that he would accept a check. He didn't say he would accept a money order. I guess my brain just filled that part in, figuring anyone who would accept a personal check would of course accept a USPS money order.
I send checks to sellers all the time without worrying about it -- does this open up the possibility for some kind of fraud? I still don't understand how having the acct and routing #s makes it possible for someone to access funds in my checking account.
Shoshanah - I didn't know that it was illegal for a merchant to ask for a driver's license #. (When I'm in a store, I never pay by check.) Is this a Federal law?
posted on December 29, 2000 02:54:25 PM newtriplesnack
You stated that you and the seller are in the same city.
Why not arrange a meet with him at a public place and this will give you a chance to look the goods over and pay him cash.
posted on December 29, 2000 03:03:02 PM new
Hi digitalman -- I've suggested meeting in person to complete the transaction to a few local eBay sellers in the past, and the offer's always been declined. I'm reluctant to suggest it anymore (and of course don't feel it's my right to demand an in-person transaction) but it would be nice if it were possible in this situation. If I'm not able to work this out in some snail mail fashion I will probably suggest it and see what the response is.
Mostly I figured 'coz we were in the same city it would be easier to address the situation if I was ripped off -- local police department, local phone number if I needed to pull contact info and call him, etc.
posted on December 29, 2000 03:04:58 PM new
Well I wouldnt send any of that info but the fact is giveing him your checking number and routeing number means nothing this is on each and every check you write so there is no reason to even ask for it.
He dont need this stuff to do some e-check thing you would have to give this info to billpoint to send him an e-check not the seller.
Giveing your liecence number would not do much for him at all even if he could get information about you with it all the info he could get is readily avalable from ebay on you already includeing phone number.
If you want to pay with check I would just send him a e-check or just pay with credit card do it through Billpoint its more secure and it will cost the seller not you the service is free for buyers.
None of the things he asked for is nessary but you could send him the check with your liecnce # not much use to him and the fact that you live in the same area he could cash the check right at your bank with out fear of it bounceing since they wouldnt cash it at all if there wasnt enough money to do so.
posted on December 29, 2000 03:32:50 PM new
This dude is hassling you for some other reason than what is on the surface.
Either he doesn't intend to deliver or some
such.
Of course, he could just be stupid.
posted on December 29, 2000 03:41:00 PM new
Since you live in the same city, pull his info and call him. I agree with others, do not send this type of info.
posted on December 29, 2000 03:45:45 PM new
Since you already asked, and got the OK, I would email a reminder to him and ask for his snail mail info. I would then send him a money order. Money orders are better than checks AND he sounds fishy to me.
posted on December 29, 2000 05:35:41 PM newillegal for a merchant to ask for a driver's license #. (When I'm in a store, I never pay by check.) Is this a Federal law?
Actually, I think the Fed law is that nobody can require your SSN for identification, and I think there are limits on that prohibition as well. In many states, your DL is identical to your SSN unless you request otherwise.
posted on December 29, 2000 07:14:16 PM new
I had a guy in Hungary who wanted my Checking account number to send me a payment. I teased him for a while but I wonder how many people are that stupid.
Apparntly there is some kind of scam going generally with overseas money transfers. Are you sure the guy is really in the US??
And in California they always ask for your drivers license number and it is the law that they can ask for nothing else, only that.
posted on December 29, 2000 08:03:35 PM new
Well I emailed and told him that I don't send financial information by email for security reasons, and that he would need to send me his address so I could send him a snail mail payment. His EOA didn't give me a total amount, and did not include a shipping quote, so I asked him for these also.
I guess if it turns out he will not provide me with an address I will offer to meet in person to make a cash transaction. And if he declines this, I will probably pass on the auction altogether.
I think it's reasonable to assume when I asked if he would take a check and he said yes, we were talking about an actual, physical check, and not just sending my financial info to him via email. (I still don't understand how this works!) And it seems to me it would be foolish to provide my checking info (or credit card number, which he also mentioned as an option in addition to Paypal or Billpoint) to an anonymous person who refuses to give me his name and address.
HartCottageQuilts - SS # makes sense. In my state driver's license # and SS # are different.
unknown - Well according to the auction page he's in the US, in my city, but since he hasn't provided me with an address yet, I suppose that it's possible that's not true. He has about 60 items up for auction right now, an odd assortment of different CDs, LPs and VHS tapes - not exactly the high-ticket sort of stuff you'd expect if someone was out to scam people, so I'm inclined to think he's on the level - maybe he is just a newbie seller who hasn't quite figured out the best way to do this yet? I'm hoping?
Thanks for your comments folks, I'll let you know how this turns out.
posted on December 29, 2000 08:15:27 PM new
Yeah well MAYBE... and then again, maybe NOT.
Lots of people figure that no one is going to bother to prosecute for small amounts. Most people figure it's more trouble than it's worth. So it'd be easy to "set up shop" with a bunch of bogus items, make a killing and run. 60 ten dollar items adds up to $600 and if they'll rob a gas station for $50 bucks why wouldn't someone save the risk of being shot and just do petty crime on ebay instead? Odds are better.
Besides, it seems fairly sophisticated to ask for all of that in your first few transactions... I'd tell him to bite it. He said he'd take a check so it's that or nothing. I'll be surprised if you get your item no matter how you pay after all that. Hope it all works out for you!
<<<He has about 60 items up for auction right now, an odd assortment of different CDs, LPs and VHS tapes - not exactly the high-ticket sort of stuff you'd expect if someone was out to scam people, so I'm inclined to think he's on the level - maybe he is just a newbie seller who hasn't quite figured out the best way to do this yet? I'm hoping? >>>
posted on December 29, 2000 08:16:11 PM newTriplesnack...
I am not as good as some with ins-and-outs of Political stuff...But I do know that when I had my new checks printed, I gave the re-order slip to the regular Teller...she asked if I still wanted both my phone number and D.L # printed, as it is no longer required, because of a privacy act.
There is a difference between "no longer required" and "illegal", so I may have erred there...But it is definitely no longer required.
As to the SS# NOT BEING REQUIRED, that is not totally correct. Any one applying for a job has to provide a SS# and, if a foreigner, a proof of Permanent Residency Status, such as the Alien Registration Card, formerly known as the "Green Card".
Many employers close their eyes to the SS# requirement, unless they deal with someone with a foreign accent.
********************
posted on December 29, 2000 11:37:35 PM new
Go to the bank and get a certified check .. respond to him that you are sending a certified bank check. Then you cover all of your bases.
Just a thought
Bonnie
posted on December 30, 2000 12:03:02 AM new
I don't want to beat this thread to death, but I wouldn't give any personal information to anyone who does not have a legal right to it. Identity theft is the fastest growing crime in the world. With your DL and SSN someone could go to the DMV and get a new license (claim they lost their wallet or purse) and get dozens of credit cards in your name in a matter of days. It happens every day.
Just my 2¢.
Neil
Rewind City http://www.rewindcity.com
posted on December 30, 2000 12:06:55 AM new
Just tell him you don't have a drivers license. It got revoked because you ran over the last jerk that tried to scam you.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on December 30, 2000 06:33:50 AM newAs to the SS# NOT BEING REQUIRED, that is not totally correct. Any one applying for a job has to provide a SS# and, if a foreigner, a proof of Permanent Residency Status, such as the Alien Registration Card, formerly known as the "Green Card". Many employers close their eyes to the SS# requirement, unless they deal with someone with a foreign accent.
shoshanah, I never said that Fed or state law itself never required an SSN for any purpose, merely that I thought there might be limits on requiring its use for identification.
Of course an SSN is required for employment - not for identification, but for, well, Social Security and IRS deduction purposes (just as when you open an interest-bearing bank account or obtain a mortgage). It can be used as part of your I-9 documentation, but only in combination with proof of ID. You don't actually have to provide your SSN until you've started the job. (And an employer deciding to "close their eyes to the SS# requirement" is probably paying its employees under the table notwithstanding their nationality - saving itself the employer contribution to SSI.)
Anyway, I finally researched the issue. According to SSI itself, you're not REQUIRED to provide your SSN to a private business except as noted above. (Surprisingly, you're not required to provide an SSN to many government agencies unless Fed law specifically requires it.) However, if you refuse to provide your SSN, the business isn't REQUIRED to, well, do business with you.
posted on December 30, 2000 10:29:16 AM new
As far as the information he has requested, he is probably not planning on drafting your account electronically. He is probably wanting to use a paper draft. He asks for the information on your check, then he actually prints a paper check on your account. I offer this method as an option to buyers because it avoids lost and delayed mail. He is asking for the DL for identification in case the check bounces, so I feel this is also legit. As far as SS #, I didn't see you post that he requested that so I'm not sure where that even came from. The problem is, he is not doing it properly as he is not telling you what he is doing and is not giving you the amount. In effect, he is not asking you to authorize this...and without doing so, it would be considered forgery.
In other words, I don't agree with the high level of skeptisism by most of the posters in this thread. It may just be that this is actually a new seller and doesn't realize he is going about it the wrong way. But I feel you have done the right thing in asking to snail mail a check.
posted on December 30, 2000 11:30:07 AM new
Well no response yet from the seller.
bnutt - Excellent idea about the certified bank check. Thanks!
sparkz -
auctionee - Thanks for this explanation! I am not familiar with this "paper draft" method of payment at all. I guess the way it works is they print out their own check, and the bank clears it just because the seller says "triplesnack says it's OK" -- the bank just takes their word for it, and cashes it without my signature? Kinda disturbing. I suppose if challenged then the seller would need to provide some kind of proof that I'd OK'd it, like a copy of my email? Still doesn't seem like a very secure system.
The EOA from the seller did seem to be very sloppy, not including a lot of the information that a buyer normally expects to get. Their email in total:
We prefer payment by PayPal, please go to PayPal and initiate payment... or Billpoint as second choice.
We can also accept Credit Cards (VISA, MasterCard and Discover), please send by e-mail. You may also pay by Check or Savings Account. E-mail the Bank Routing Number, your Account number, the check number and your Driver's License number.
No, they didn't ask for SS#, and as I say my DL # is not my SS#.
Since they OK payment by credit card without going through a third-party service, they presumably have (or have access to) a merchant account, which indicates a "professional" business of some sort (if it's not a scam). I want to believe they are just newbies still working out the kinks but these are some pretty sophisticated payment options for a newbie. Hmm.
[ edited by triplesnack on Dec 30, 2000 11:34 AM ]
posted on January 1, 2001 05:56:18 PM new
If your seller still refuses to give you the address to send payment to, I might be inclined to contact safeharbor about walking away from the auction. It does not seem like an honest situation to me.
Also, as an employer I am required to have on hand the Social Security numbers of my employees so I can pay the FICA, state and city taxes. Also, they are needed to pay unemployment taxes in PA, too.
As a former video rental store owner I asked for Social Security numbers from people signing up. If they did not want to give it to me I would require 2 additional proofs of ID. If they did not have them then I would refuse to do business with them.
What most people do not realize is that by giving your name and birthdate to anyone you are able to have a SS#. It just takes a little bit of research.
posted on January 1, 2001 06:17:37 PM new
I have a question that may be addressed in the lower part of this thread (the thought came to my head half-way down) so I am sorry if this is a repeat.
Could a person be physically be located in another country (or another part of the USA) but have it appear to be located somewhere else, on the auction site? Say if I lived in Finland could I do an auction that would give a person the impression I lived in Tennesse? And in the meanwhile gather information to scam people?
posted on January 1, 2001 06:24:04 PM new
Sure, you could list your auction on ebay.com (USA) and list your location as Tennesse and use a Yahoo e-mail address.
posted on January 1, 2001 06:49:05 PM new
Thank you digitalman
First of all, to make myself perfectly clear I am verified with eBay, but thought I need to mention new users have to register with a non-free email service. Yahoo wouldn't cut it -more ways than one.....
But let's say a person lives in Finland registered with a internet provider service that is world wide or one that is located in Finland (who in USA would know?). When he/she lists auctions could the person say they are located in the Tennessee/USA to gather info?
I have had valued Canadian buyers purchase through a USA bank so why couldn't sellers? Either to rip people off or for selling their items.
I suppose a person could get away with it until they are caught. But how much damage could they do in the meantime?
posted on January 1, 2001 08:43:27 PM newtriplesnack: I would probably send him info on AChex, and send him an "e-check" that way. It's quick to set up, pretty secure for all parties, and faster than snail mail. Just another thought.. but I would NOT send him the info he asked for. Just me being paranoid.
