blueyes29
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posted on June 2, 2003 11:44:35 AM new
This is a toughie! I've got an old stone (looks like granite) Land Certificate. It was purchased at a closing sale of a newspaper. It measures about 12x10 inches. At the top if the name "George W. Shaw" Agricultural Engineer...Consulting Agriculturist and Land Expert. This is, I think, a "master" for a "Complete Agricultural Survey" for the Valley Garden Farms in Fresno County, California. There's a space for Subdivision and Farm No. Any information is greatly appreciated...Any ideas as to what category I'd list this in? Is it worth zillions or worthless...or something in between? Thanks!
[img]http://imagehost.auctionwatch.com/preview/bl/blueyes29/Land2.jpg[img]
[ edited by blueyes29 on Jun 2, 2003 11:47 AM ]
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max40
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posted on June 2, 2003 12:16:02 PM new
IMHO it's a lithography stone. They were used to print off of before the advent of modern printing methods.
As for value, Idunno. If it was a master for Coca Cola, beer or any identifyable brand, it would have a value. A local surveyor is pretty obscure.
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
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auctionace
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posted on June 2, 2003 12:38:47 PM new
It's a very unique item. I just spent 15 minutes on ebay and Google and could come up with nothing like it. My gut feeling is that the item is meant to be a trophy or similar instead of the standard framed certificate. My gut feeling is that it has very little value other than possibly to oddity collectors of old certificates. That would be the best shot at listing it, in a category of old certificates. Should be worth 30 cents to list and you may get some leads from helpful ebayers on the Q&A setup.
Good luck!
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Dejapooh
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posted on June 2, 2003 02:54:34 PM new
It can not be a lithography stone. To produce prints the stone would have to have the print as mirror image. Since the image is straight, it can not be.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. B. Franklin
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zircon4
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posted on June 2, 2003 03:02:42 PM new
George W. Shaw must have been quite an expert. It seems that this land certificate is written in stone.  No room for error there.
Cheers,
Adrian
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Damariscotta
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posted on June 2, 2003 03:50:18 PM new
I believe this is a lithography stone used in the offset lithography process. In this process, the image is transferred first to a "blanket", then to the paper. This is why the image on the stone is not reversed, since it reverses twice during the process, winding up ok. (I am doing this from memory, so may have a technical error or omission here.)
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blueyes29
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posted on June 2, 2003 03:50:26 PM new
I think if the "Valley Garden Farms" still exist (any Californians reading this post?), this would be a really neat decorating thingy. Actually, I was hoping there were only two of these known to exist and mine was the highly-sought-after and previously unknown third one! 
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max40
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posted on June 2, 2003 03:54:39 PM new
That most likely is the ONLY one ever to exist.
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
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auctionace
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posted on June 2, 2003 03:58:45 PM new
I think if the "Valley Garden Farms" still exist (any Californians reading this post?), this would be a really neat decorating thingy. Actually, I was hoping there were only two of these known to exist and mine was the highly-sought-after and previously unknown third one!
There are zero Google search results for "Valley Garden Farms" so it probably no longer exists.
Was there any dates on the item?
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neonmania
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posted on June 2, 2003 05:18:23 PM new
::They were used to print off of before the advent of modern printing methods. ::
Don't think so - if this were the case it would have to be reverse image.
All I can think of is a decoative plot marker, kind of a corner stone for your land : )
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Roadsmith
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posted on June 2, 2003 05:59:30 PM new
Clever of George Shaw to erase the Ten Commandments and re-use the stone.
I think there's a collectibles category for "Agriculture," isn't there? I'd list it there and also in "Ephemera." I'd definitely list it.
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ohmslucy
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posted on June 2, 2003 06:00:55 PM new
Hi,
Actually, Shaw was quite prominent in Fresno history. One of the main streets is Shaw Avenue.
That's a really neat piece! Would be fairly snazzzzz on my front porch. How big is it? Does it weigh a ton?
Anyway, here's a link to Fresno County. There's a Contact Us button that brings up an email form. Who knows? You might get the info you need.
http://www.co.fresno.ca.us/portal/SiteMap.asp
Edited to add, if it's a printing stone, it's likely from the Fresno Bee. Another possible place to get some history.
Let me know what you find out.
Lucy
[ edited by ohmslucy on Jun 2, 2003 06:02 PM ]
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ohmslucy
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posted on June 2, 2003 06:09:08 PM new
You know, maybe it was used to print blank certificates which were then filled in by hand and given to the owner of the land Shaw surveyed. Maybe proof the survey had been done?
Just a thought...
Lucy
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blueyes29
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posted on June 2, 2003 06:27:05 PM new
Hi Lucy...I'm inclined to think you're correct as the space for the Subdivision, Farm Number, Date and Signature are all blank...so it makes sense that this was a master and then copies made from it and filled in accordingly. My guess is that it weighs about 10 pounds...it measures 12 x 10 inches. I'll go on the link to Fresno and see what I can find out about Good Ol' George. Was going to wait until later to put this on but what the hay...since I'm getting so "into" it, will put it on Thursday and take advantage of the 1 cent gallery! Will probably list under Agricultural Ephemera (if that's a legit category)...Thanks to all for the info...as usual, MOST helpful!
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sparkz
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posted on June 2, 2003 06:44:36 PM new
Ohmslucy is correct. One of the main streets in Fresno is named after this person. It may be worth a call to the Fresno County Clerk - Recorder to see if anyone there can give you any history on it. They may have documents on file that were produced by this. When you list it, make sure you have the word "Fresno" in the title. Make it easy for the local Valley historians to find.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
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neonmania
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posted on June 2, 2003 06:48:04 PM new
I doubt that this is a printing stone for two reasons...
1) The printing does not appear to be raised which would be neccesary in order for ink to adhear to only the intended text and not the entire piece.
2) Even if the text were raised - it would have to be reversed. In order to create a readable product from an impression print, the original ... in this case the stone... would have to be a reverse image like your average rubber stamp and old lead type.
OK - make it three....
I worked in printing for many years and have never heard of a "printing stone" Prior to modern litho and offset there was letterpress which commonly used lead type. I've seen carved stone pieces for artistic impresion prints but never text based.
This piece looks like the printing was screened onto the stone. I could see this being used as a decorative land maker, somehing possible placed into a walkway or gate entrance.
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blueyes29
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posted on June 2, 2003 07:27:34 PM new
Thanks, neonmania, for the professional info...The text/letters ARE raised...but I understand what you're saying about the reversal...So, who knows? Maybe, as someone else suggested, a master was made from this, then copies were made from the master. Whichever...today I think it's probably just a unique and interesting "thingy". Appreciate your help!
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Damariscotta
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posted on June 3, 2003 03:39:42 AM new
Lithography works on the principle that oil and water resist each other. The design is drawn on stone with litho crayon (or other means). When printing, the stone is wet, then inked.
As I mentioned above, in offset lithography the design would appear on the stone as it does on the paper, since it reverses twice, winding up back where it started.
These stones do not show up frequently, probably because they could be re-surfaced and used with new designs, unlike woodcut blocks, etc. Or because people wouldn't bother to keep outdated stuff this heavy.
Sorry if this is brief and incomplete, but you could probably get a book on printmaking from your local library for a clearer description of this printing process.
Edited to clean up and add:
I just googled this up:
http://www.ippaper.com/gettips_pp_l_history.html
[ edited by Damariscotta on Jun 3, 2003 03:57 AM ]
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CBlev65252
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posted on June 3, 2003 04:36:24 AM new
blueyes29
Well, no matter what it is, it's interesting and fun. I'd find a place to hang it on a wall. Would make an interesting conversation piece.
Cheryl
My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.
--Dalai Llama
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blueyes29
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posted on June 4, 2003 02:08:59 PM new
Thanks all for the great info! I've got this ready to launch Thursday with (as suggested) relevant words included in the title. Should be interesting to see how much interest, if any, there is. Appreciate all the "expert" information! Thanks!
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miscreant
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posted on June 4, 2003 03:54:35 PM new
Try looking up a surveyor's stone marker. If it was a benchmark it would have a cross to mark a spot or intersection. A related item is a crown stone. Sometimes these are set in concrete to mark individual parcels but this one was never used.
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