posted on July 11, 2001 02:50:58 PM new
BittyBug, I'm not sure what you disagree with. Does it summarize to your belief that mothers do introduce their boys to sex while I reject that belief?
posted on July 11, 2001 03:14:57 PM new
My disagreement is that you took one incident and your opinions (which you have thus far failed to support with any data, then titled it "Child molestion: the real thing"
Child Molestation is a real thing, emcompassing much more than what you provided a link to. It is adult males and adult females sexually exploiting children, of their own and of others. It is all real, no matter what you have decreed.
posted on July 11, 2001 03:56:24 PM new
roofguy, I'm still wondering where you're going with this.
You quote - "My concern regards adult men molesting children."
Is this your point? You seem to be somewhat evasive about this. If there's more green people that molest children than blue, so what?
I've asked you 3 times now, with no answer.......Are you concerned because you are a parent? Have you had something like this happen in you own life? Is your point to bring the statistics to light?.....?????
posted on July 11, 2001 04:18:55 PM newIf there's more green people that molest children than blue, so what?
No, that's not the point.
One cannot detect potential child molesters by looking at them.
One can put up a good defense by being on the alert for certain behaviors, particularly when these behaviors are exhibited by men who have achieved positions which grant access to 12-14 year old boys.
The most important such behavior is establishing a child-friend like relationship with the young boy, again, especially when coupled with suggested opportunities for one on one encounters.
I'd say that such an observation is cause for immediate alarm and action to remove the boy from the circumstance. Depending on the circumstances, it might be indicated to discuss the concern with other parents, and seek counselling to determine what, if anything, has occurred.
IF this had happened in the cited case a while before it did, much of tragedy would have been averted.
posted on July 11, 2001 04:45:45 PM new"My concern regards adult men molesting children"
Sorry, I thought you were talking about child molestion period.
Didn't know you were only concerned with one form. So, I guess we can just stay ignorant about the other forms or perhaps there are no other forms. At least not that you would classify as molestion.
posted on July 11, 2001 04:50:51 PM new
sulyn1950, if you have information regarding child molestation, go ahead and post it; include analysis as you see appropriate.
posted on July 11, 2001 04:59:56 PM new
Sorry, I have no real 1st hand knowledge on the subject. I have read the links provided and can't help but notice that they don't seem to have much to do with your views. I would go so far as to say, they actually make some of your arguments invalid. Then, I was arriving at that conclusion based on all forms not just the one your interested in. So I am afraid I really can't add anything constructive to this thread so I won't try.
I will also leave you alone about it.
I hope you get an answer that makes you feel better.
posted on July 11, 2001 05:15:44 PM new
Roofguy, allow me to recommend a movie. Dolores Claiborne. It takes a while to get to it, but there's an unforgettable scene that takes place on the ferry. It may be acting, but watch the girl's face. The play of emotions--fear, revulsion, and finally a shocked detachment--speak to your repeated assertions that some victims of sexual abuse enjoy being abused. Promoting the notion that the sickos who service their private pathologies at the expense of the health and sanity of children are also providing a few of these children pleasure simply supports a NAMBLA-type view of this dreadful crime. Is that your intention?
Children who are beaten don't revel at the descent of the belt. They cringe, then steel themselves for the blows. And they grow up, many of them, to beat their own children and others weaker than they are. And so with sexual violation.
Last, anecdotally, half--that's 50%--of the abuse cases (including incest) I know of personally involve female pedophiles. Far from conferring immunity, I'd speculate that motherhood may provide a form of motive for those predisposed, and endless opportunity.
posted on July 11, 2001 06:05:09 PM new
skylarraye, I've reviewed your references.
The first regards sexually violent children, and what they say about their own past. There is indeed a reference to a bad mother:
On holidays -- even Christmas -- his mother would ``lock me in my room, neglect me of food, beat me and rape me.
The second is an essay (agreed, not ulike my own). It basically claims that women can think, and then act pretty much in the same patterns as men do.
The third decries the difficulty in getting people (like me) to take female molestation seriously. It includes an anecdote regarding a judge who dismissed charges against a mother because "women don't do things like this", and an anonymous prison warden who explained 2nd hand that there was only one women convicted of child molestation in the entire prison system. The warden found that to be a consequence of conservative political pressure.
---------
A reaction.
All of these citations confirm a hard fact: very few women are in prison as child molesters.
In the cited case of the raping mother, there was no report of prosecution.
In any case, I agree, females can be child molesters, and the consequences can be brutal. I remain a bit skeptical about that raping mother on Christmas.
For whatever reason, they just don't end up in prison in significant numbers. However, they DO occasionally go to prison, which almost certainly indicates one or more victim.
Calibrate your defenses as you see appropriate. Factor in the effect of conservative politics.
posted on July 11, 2001 06:09:19 PM new
After reading all of this I have to ask why you are convinced that if an child has a sexual experience with an adult it means they will not be able to form normal relationships later. From what I read and see a lot of kids have some sexual experimentation when they are 12 to 14 years old. At exactly what point is the relationship harmfull? Not illegal because that varies all over the place. A 13 year old with a 15 yrear old? With a 17 year old?
A 19 year old?
Of course I am not talking about 5 and 6 year olds and such that are abused I can see that would be terrifying, and scaring.
I am starting to wonder how much harm is from the experience and how much harm is from the hysterical reaction of the relatives rejecting the child as tainted as in " My God my little boy/girl is dirty and ruined for life.
I never had the experience of being approuched sexually until I was in my late teens, but I would like have explained better why that would change ones feelings later for another person unless there is an enormous guilt trip laid on them. What about when a couple 13 year olds get together and experiment with sex? Does that not have any effect on their progression toward other later relationships? Or is it just that in that case there is nobody to "blame"?
The more that is said here the less sense it is making to me. Of course a lack of personal experience is a factor.
posted on July 11, 2001 06:18:13 PM newDoes it summarize to your belief that mothers do introduce their boys to sex while I reject that belief?
I posted those links in regards to this statement, however, I am now seeing the operative word do perhaps should have been can. Still, I'm not clear on if the inference was all mothers or some mothers, as you have just stated that you do believe it is possible for mothers to be guilty of sexual abuse.
As for defense, I have none, because I agree that females are capable of this crime, and I have no hard data on hand as to the number of females (nationwide or worldwide) in prison due to perpetrating sexual abuse.
posted on July 11, 2001 06:19:48 PM newWhat about when a couple 13 year olds get together and experiment with sex? Does that not have any effect on their progression toward other later relationships?
Crucially different: it seldom results in a male molestation cycle, with the male fixated on the experience, and seeking to continue it as an adult.
I surely agree with you gravid on the hysteria in cases not involving an orgasm by the victim. Often enough, if no huge fuss is made, the victim will soon forget. However, in orgasmic cases, severe damage has been done. The victim cannot forget. The victim has participated.
posted on July 11, 2001 06:32:39 PM new
Kraftdinner,
I agree. This thread has become wholly unsavory, and the pretense that shrouded its launching seems to be evaporating as roofguy gets specific.
Roofguy, I change my mind. Skip the movie and find a professional to talk to. Soon. Privately. Whatever ails you needs more than a chatboard can provide, IMO.
posted on July 11, 2001 06:43:53 PM new
Thanks roofguy for explaining instead of just flaming me when I did not expect that to be a popular idea.
OK - Here is another possibly contriversial question. I have never made a study of this as some of you claim to have done to some degree.
How about other cultures and times?
There is a pretty wide view in the world of even what murder is. That is something that I am more familiar with.
Is there any culture out there that does not share the same ideas about what constitutes abuse?
I have a reason for asking this because I knew a fellow who traveled in China a decade or more ago and he saw some political posters showing officials fondling toddler's genitals. He asked the guide if that was put up by people trying to discredit the politicians and he said no it was what the peasants do - so it was to make the leaders seem like a common sort of person that could relate to the working man. He said they make a big show of eating a big laborer's dish full of garlic also so they are not viewed as having dainty airs in food. We both thought it VERY foreign.
posted on July 11, 2001 06:48:45 PM new
Ah - I see you are making people very uncomfortable by being specific.
And this means there is now something wrong with him? But let me guess that you are too well breed and dainty to be specific about what he needs help for?
I guess we should not want specific facts on the legal charges?
Seems to me that that was the style of indictments in the past for witchcraft also.
