posted on September 20, 2001 10:37:37 AM new
Just a thought. We know there are 1000's of Mexican illegals in this country. What if we offered them amnisty if they joined the armed forces? That way we would feel they honestly wanted to be a part of America. Why should they stay here and reap the benefits while our children go to war? It would also help their families because they would be getting military pay and benefits.
posted on September 20, 2001 11:03:33 AM new
I think that's a really bad idea.
The first thing I think of is when Irish immigration coincided with the Civil War. It was the practice then that those Americans who were drafted could hire someone to go in their place. What ended up happening was that immigrants weren't even hardly off the boat before they were approached by brokers. Human nature being what it is, the immigrants were told they had no choice, they had to enlist in the army as a condition of immigration (rather than being offered this option.) You ended up with people who hadn't even had the chance to attain citizenship yet dead on the battlefields.
Your whole idea smacks of the rich preying on the poor. Let's keep on pretending we don't do that already instead of expanding and codifying it.
posted on September 20, 2001 11:05:55 AM new
You already have a problem with underqualified soldiers running multimillion dollar weapons.
I have nothing against Mexican people but the fact is most of them come here for menial jobs. They often have lived in areas where they did not have an opportunity to get a very good education and they are often not really skilled in English. I don't think your recruiters would welcome a huge influx of people needing a great deal of training.
I'd like to also point out that historically nations have not done very well when they came to depend on foreigners for their armed forces.
posted on September 20, 2001 11:31:47 AM new
Mexican illegals are not lawfully here. The URL referenced says they are lawful residents.
Different branches of services have different requirements, but most are similar to those of the Marines. The candidates must be between the ages of 17 and 29, *U.S. citizens or registered aliens*, and be physically fit.
Applicants must also take the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) to assess applicants' vocational aptitudes and academic abilities.
posted on September 20, 2001 11:41:42 AM new
No, I'm not joking!
I'm not talking about "bringing" Mexicans here from Mexico. I'm talking about the one's who have been here for years. They want to live here, earn money here, send their kids to our schools, and have babies here so they will be citizens.
Sure most are uneducated, but that doesn't mean they're stupid. I think that's unfair to them. They have brains like everyone else and have the ability to learn like everyone else given the opportunity.
Don't you think this would give them some pride? To be an important part of American, instead of being looked down on, and standing on corners looking for jobs. And, as I said it would help their families financialy.
If they thought they may have to fight in a war just like our kids it might separate the men from the boy's, and the boy's will be busting their butts to get back accross the border in direction of Mexico.
posted on September 20, 2001 11:50:33 AM new
Okay...you're not joking. The US services doesn't take just anyone. They have enlistment requirements. One requirement being they must be U.S. citizens or registered aliens.
posted on September 20, 2001 12:04:48 PM new
Ah, how quickly our veneers get stripped away and our ugliness is exposed. And this after only.. what, 9 days? It's almost gonna be worth it all, to see.
posted on September 20, 2001 12:06:00 PM new
LindaK, I should have said veterans. My grandfather was naturalized during WWI.
"Veterans who have served honorably in any of the periods of armed conflict with hostile foreign forces
An applicant who has served honorably during any of the following periods of conflict may apply for naturalization based on military service:
World War I - 4/16/17 to 11/11/18
World War II - 9/1/39 to 12/31/46
Korean Conflict - 6/25/50 to 7/1/55
Vietnam Conflict - 2/28/61 to 10/15/78
Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm - 8/29/90 to 4/11/91
Any other period that the President, by Executive Order, has designated as a period in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or were engaged in military operations involving armed conflict with hostile foreign forces"
posted on September 20, 2001 12:13:58 PM new
LindaK - just a short month ago Bush and Fox were talking about giving these illegals amnesty just for being here for many years.
If they are serious, and want freedom and economic benefits, they should fight for it like everyone else here.
One reason Bush wants to make illegals citizens is for their vote. Voting is a right and one way we have earned that right is fighting in wars to protect it.
Everyone should have pride in themselves and be proud of the country they live in. One way to show that is defending that country.
posted on September 20, 2001 12:22:37 PM new
snowyegrets - Help me out here, please. You speak about veterans. I understand that part. Obviously I'm missing something in my reading.
You use the example of your grandfather, and offer another URL that again speaks to the issue of "lawful". What am I not understanding? Was your grandfather here illegally? I don't get that in your post.
I'm speaking only to any illegal serving in our armed forces.
posted on September 20, 2001 12:51:01 PM new
I will ask the same question I asked on another thread -
If as the Declaration of Independence states all men are created equal - and endowed with certain inalienable rights - then how are we better than the tyrants that document denouces if we fail to recognize these universal rights on the basis of citizenship?
If someone wants to come here to live a decent life and have economic freedom how can we seperate such property rights from political rights? Is not economic freedom the very expression of political freedom the revolution was fought over? Property rights are the most practical expression of political freedom - not some secondary question that is of less importance.
posted on September 20, 2001 01:12:31 PM new
gravid - I'd love to answer your question, but I think my mis-understand mode is in high gear today. I will try, but please excuse me if I'm taking what you're saying in the wrong way.
Are you saying you believe illegals should be able to serve in our armed forces? all men equal In those days, they didn't consider slaves equal.
...to live a decent life and have economic freedom how can we seperate such property rights from political rights? I'm really not clear on separating property rights from political rights. I believe anyone who enters our country legally, is entitled to the above.
posted on September 20, 2001 01:20:45 PM new
"donny and your point is?
You don't think Mexicans have brains and with education they wouldn't be intelligent enough to join our armed forces."
Oh, intelligence really isn't the point, is it? You're not suggesting that they join the army because we value their intelligence, it's that they're disposable people. Cannon fodder.
"You don't think they and their families would benefit financially from military pay and benefits?"
Well, how much dead people will benefit is a question, isn't it?
"You don't think they want to be citizens?"
Sure. But being put out on the lines so that we can save our own more precious children probably isn't what they have in mind.
"You don't think they would have pride in serving a country they want to be citizens in?"
Would you? You want to be a citizen, don't you? When are you joining up?
"You don't think they would gain respect instead of being looked down on because they do menial jobs."
Gee, are you one of those who look down on people because they do menial jobs? I thought that was me, in a past thread. That was an accusation thrown around with bunches of self-righteousness at the time, I wouldn't claim it if I were you, just some friendly advice. Unless, of course, the climate has changed, which I sure wouldn't say isn't the case.
"You don't think we want them here as citizens to share our wealth and glory."
No, we don't seem to want them here to share our wealth and glory. It seems like we do everything possible to keep them out, have precious little sympathy when they die in our desert after drinking their own urine, and when they do make it in we begrudge them what near slave-labour they're able to find. However, it sounds like we'd take them with open arms if we could shove them in front of the enemy so our own could keep on enjoying those good old American values.
"You don't think they would benefit at all?"
Laugh! Sure, let's all benefit, right now. Where do we sign up!
posted on September 20, 2001 01:21:38 PM new
LOL LindaK - don't feel bad I read it a couple of times and each time resulted in a different interuptation.
Anyway my original thought was instead of giving a blanket amnesty just for living here illegally for many years, they could gain amnesty and citizenship by serving in the military. With benefits to them and to our country.
posted on September 20, 2001 01:37:41 PM new
chococake - Okay....I understood that statement. Whew!!
I don't agree with the 'blanket amnesty' idea. I know they need the work, and we need the work done. I'm aware that they are very poor and don't begruded them work in our country at all. I just think they should be here legally. Maybe like the 'worker program' I've read about. But blanket amnesty....no.
posted on September 20, 2001 02:02:49 PM new
donny I don't know what it is with you always trying to twist my words.
I've seen first hand how illegals are treated. Once an organization I was in got a too late call that the medical clinic that was known too treat illegals was going to be raided by the INS. The phones were busy there and we couldn't warn them. We jumped in our cars but got there too late. We were trying to lock the doors as the big black cars rolled up, but didn't have time. So we barrcaded the doors with our bodies, some of us were knocked to the ground. Yes they were after the men, but they totally terrorized the woman and children. Sick crying babies with hysterical mothers trying to shield them. I wasn't a proud American that day.
I was secretary for the counties Head Start Program. I went door to door with an interprepter trying to get parents to enroll their little ones, and to see if there was any other help that they needed but were afraid to ask for because of their status.
posted on September 20, 2001 02:03:03 PM newTres Chocolat...One of the problems might be that, although many emigrants have been in the States for years and years, many still do not speak nor understand English.
That could lead to...difficulty.. when an order is given by a superior who does not have time to find a translator. Of course, they do have the intelligence and the brain, but so many have chosen to not learn the language.
(as a side note, I feel that any one wanting to make their life in this country should attend English classes...it should be mendatory).
posted on September 20, 2001 02:15:05 PM new
Hi Shosh good to see you!
Yes, I understand the lack of education, and English. But, look how many Americans join just to get the education that is offered never thinking they might have to fight a war.
I know it would be hard and time consuming to offer the education, because it would be like starting them in 1st grade. But, like krs said the plan for this war is 10 years.
I don't know I just think some might like to take advantage of the education and knowing their families were being taken care of at the same time. I wish we could ask them how they would feel about this.
posted on September 20, 2001 03:03:21 PM newTres Chocolat...I really hope that this war will be over way, WAY before the 10 years are up...Statistically, I already have one foot in the grave: I really want to die FREE..
closetAs to the Aghani, Pakistani People, it is already happening, in a different way: they are being recruited by this Government to become translators...
In these times of great crisis, EVERYONE is a potential suspect. Look at that AMERICAN as apple pie guy who was selling our AMERICAN INFO to RUSSIA for all those years!....Hopefully, the CIA, FBI and whatever other Intelligence centers will be able to keep a sharp eye on EVERYONE...
posted on September 20, 2001 03:32:12 PM new
Cassiecloset (I believe) was referring to illegals. The translators the FBI are looking for are required to be US citizens too.
They must be U.S. citizens, or if they have dual citizenship, they must be willing to renounce citizenship of the other country. They also must undergo lie detector and drug tests and consent to an extensive background investigation.
posted on September 20, 2001 03:34:29 PM new
cassiescloset - yes I think they should be given that "choice" also.
Also, in regard to immigration (as long as we're on the subject) concerning woman. I wish there was more protection for them from their own husbands. When I counseled at the Battered Womans Shelter I had so many woman from other countries, but especially the Middle East and Mexico, some legal some not, but all with immigration issues.
They were physically and mentally abused, and because some were dependent on their husbands green card status were threatened by them to be returned home without their children. Or the children were kidnapped by the husband, and taken back home. Some of these woman were left here to fend for themselves without any resourses or family, but couldn't go home because the husbands family would kill them. Of course it's not just people of color look at that Russian man in Sacramento who killed his wife, son, and other family members? That brought it all back to me about the woman I worked with. It's also hard to help because of the different customs and religions. It's interfering until like one of them ended up in the hospitol because her husband beat her with a hammer.
Sorry, guess I'm more depressed than I thought I was.
posted on September 20, 2001 03:46:29 PM new
{{{{chococake}}}} It's a hard time for most everyone. Hang in there. Try and find something to be thankful for. Sometimes focusing on too many negative things can be overwhelming.
