posted on October 6, 2001 06:53:12 PM
I'll tell you right up front that I'm not a big fan of the ACLU, and consider its unofficial nickname -- Another Criminal Left Unpunished -- to be both humorous and semi-true.
Its latest legal salvo was fired at a grade school -- a GRADE SCHOOL! -- which had the audacity to express its patriotism on the school's marquee: God Bless America
Seems the ACLU found this sentiment offensive, because there might be a first-grader out there who *doesn't* want God to bless America. I found its OBJECTION to the message extremely offensive, AND short-sighted, and a host of other things requiring expletives AW doesn't allow.
While I *do* enjoy the liberties I've been granted and guaranteed by The Constitution of The United States and The Bill of Rights, I've not benefitted one time -- not one time -- from the activities of the ACLU. Have you? Really?
posted on October 6, 2001 07:04:01 PM
The concept of "God" is amorphous and all encompassing enough that I really don't think the mention of it should offend anybody. It's not espousing a particular religion, and even if somebody is an atheist they can take it to mean "may fate and the cosmos look upon America with favor."
Now if it had said "Christ bless America"....
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the ACLU either. I think it's important that even the most despicable criminal receives the full protection of the law, but I think the ACLU tends to take many cases more for the publicity than for the benefit of the person they are defending.
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on October 6, 2001 07:13:49 PM
The ACLU didn't just sniff out some elementary school somewhere to pick on. If they found out about and agreed to deal with this situation, obviously someone close to the situation [like a parent] complained to them. I definitely don't agree with this, or with a lot of what the ACLU does, but clearly they were asked to stick their nose into this one.
posted on October 6, 2001 07:19:45 PM
Yes, jamesoblivion, they were asked by no less than TWO people "to stick their nose into this one". Is *that* what motivates the ACLU? Lone voices of discontent? Enlighten me, please...
True. Sorry, I'm still mad about the firemen there being forced to remove big flags from their trucks so as not to offend anybody after the terrorist attack. Still you are right, and I apologize. I've got lots of friends and even some family in California. Jess
posted on October 6, 2001 07:53:32 PMIs *that* what motivates the ACLU? Lone voices of discontent?
Well, this case is clearly a bad example, but "lone voices of discontent" who are having their civil rights shat on are usually the ones who need someone in their corner.
posted on October 6, 2001 07:57:34 PM
Absolutely incredible....
The ACLU contends that the words broadcast "a hurtful, divisive message."
ACLU attorney Crosby said Friday that "this is a time when we need to promote unity among Americans of all faiths. Many schools are flying flags to instill a sense of unity in a time of trouble."
"By displaying a religious message, the Breen Elementary School is dividing its young students along religious lines," Crosby added. "School officials are hurting and isolating their schoolchildren of minority faiths when they should be supporting them and the values of pluralism and tolerance."
Excuse me? As I said before, "God" is a pretty universal concept, not the expression of a particular religious belief. The Constitution prohibits a state from establishing a particular faith, but I can't believe anybody would make a fuss over something like this. Prayer in school, perhaps. Posting the 10 Commandments on the all, maybe. But simply putting a sign up that says "God Bless America"???
Do they still recite the Pledge of Allegiance in schools ["one nation, under God..."]? Is the song "God Bless America" a forbidden song? Are teachers now sued if they say "God bless you" when a student sneezes?
Sheeeeesh...
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[typos]
[ edited by godzillatemple on Oct 6, 2001 07:58 PM ]
posted on October 6, 2001 08:00:14 PM
Actually, Jess, you're right to suspicion Californians -- the Fire Chief of (I think) Fremont, CA, has threatened to fire (odd term to use in this job category) every one of the Firefighters who recently, on their own time (but dressed in Firefighter gear), "passed the boot" in traffic on Fremont's busiest streets to raise money for the New York Firefighters and their families. It's *this* kind of whacko thinking I'm talking about... form versus substance... people "in charge" who can't see the forest for the trees, so to speak. The ACLU, in charge of itself, spills over into my life and yours all the time, and I, for one, am sick of it...
Edited to add: jamesoblivion, cite me one example of the contention you raised:
"... but "lone voices of discontent" who are having their civil rights shat on are usually the ones who need someone in their corner."
posted on October 6, 2001 08:14:04 PM
"even if somebody is an atheist they
can take it to mean "may fate and the cosmos look upon America with favor."
That's funny - you have managed to make a statement trivializing the beliefs of both the religious and UN-religeous as of no consequense in any case before the rights of the stste.
The religeous who look on God as a very real and aware personality will be offended that you reduce Him to a vague order of nature or probability, and the unbeliever will be offended that you force them to affirm some form of superstitious causuality.
Which is exactly why the state has no business in the belief business at all.
Even though as you pointed out they have never learned to leave it behind 100%.
That's OK if they won't because reality has a way of asserting itself over and over.
The German's under Hitler went into battle with big belt buckles that loudly proclaimed "God With Us" You see how much good it did them? Just as much good as that sign on the school will help the US. It sways what little children think - not God.
posted on October 6, 2001 08:20:41 PM
An example of what? Someone having their civil rights violated? Surely you don't require anecdotal evidence to know that there are individuals who have had their civil rights violated.
posted on October 6, 2001 08:21:09 PMgravid, what "little children" think and believe ultimately shapes this country. I'm all for them believing in The United States -- it's their home, and their destiny, afterall...
posted on October 6, 2001 08:31:03 PM jamesoblivion, I *would* like a specific example of the ACLU's direct (positive?) impact upon the case of a specific individual whose civil rights had been violated IF IT'S YOUR OWN. I grew up in a household where Constitutional Law was taught to put food on our plates, and I've got every caselaw book, every Supreme Court decision ever published. This thread was a direct request for information as to how the ACLU has helped you (you, the individual reading this post) personally.
posted on October 6, 2001 08:35:27 PM
plsmith - Just in case James does not want to answer you here is your ONE case. The ACLU - who sometimes offend me also - last year joined with locals to put down a law in Medina Washington which required people to get a license and undergo a background check and pay a fee for --
"every person who shall seek charitable contributions, seek signatures on a petition, seek to disseminate information, seek to expound beliefs, seek new members on behalf of any political, religious or charitable organization(s) or distribute written by going from house to house, or from place to place, or by standing in a doorway, or in any other place not used by such person as permanent place of business, or by approaching individuals."
The city fathers just went ahead and shot the first ammendment dead without any qualms at all.
posted on October 6, 2001 08:35:57 PM
I apologize for not making use of your thread as you directed. Foolishly, I thought from past precedent that all kinds of comments related to the thread subject are admissable in threads. Clearly not, so I'm sorry for hijacking your thread in this unacceptable direction. Carry on.
posted on October 6, 2001 08:44:48 PMgravid, I'm opposed to red tape, too...
jamesoblivion, don't bail. My point, my question, is: how has the ACLU benefitted you personally? I'm not out to fight with anyone here... I've just got a huge (personal) "disconnect" between what the ACLU is perceived to stand for and what it actually accomplishes. I appreciate your input, James. Keep talkin' ...
posted on October 6, 2001 08:48:02 PM
Nonsense James, withdraw that apology. This person has no more right to dictate the course or individual postings of or to a thread than the man in the moon has. She can, if she finds the result of her inquiry unsatisfactory, request that the thread be closed but that request would be considered in light of any ongoing value to the community and closed or left open at the discretion of the reviewing party.
posted on October 6, 2001 08:48:17 PM
It seems silly at first glance to take on an elementary school because of "God Bless America." But where do you draw the line?
The best thing would have been if the administrators in the public school would have had the sensitivity to not put that up in the first place.
The whole God Bless America thing may make some of us non-believers feel like the believers don't think we care about out country. I want nothing more than for this country to be a place of peace and opportunity for all. But saying, "God bless America," would make me a hypocrite because I don't believe in God.
The Boy Scouts threw out two atheists, didn't they? Private organization, blah, blah, but still, enough people think it's ok that they did it. I find it scary.
I'm offended by the fact that God is mentioned on our money. That churches get tax breaks. That they've been singing God Bless America at Mets games instead of the National Anthem. That our Pledge of Allegiance mentions God. But when you're a minority, you learn to live with the things that offend you or you walk through life angry all the time.
Bash them if you will, disagree with them, agree with them. I have my differences with the ACLU also. But I'm glad they exist because they help keep the crazies to the right of the line in check.
posted on October 6, 2001 08:50:12 PM
"gravid, what "little children" think and believe ultimately shapes this country. I'm all for
them believing in The United States -- it's their home, and their destiny, after all..."
Agreed. Now how do they learn that? Because their teachers will require them to
repeat it until they by God believe it or we will punish them?
During the second world war they threw Jehovah's Witnesses out of school because
they would not pledge allegiance to the flag.
Over in Germany they were throwing them out of school because they would not hail
Hitler.
The ACLU joined in the case against the school board somewhere in West Virginia I
believe it was, and one of the Supreme Court Justices had the wisdom to write for the
majority opinion that if we coerce belief in little school children we have become no
better than that which we are fighting to destroy.
Children learn better by example and are very quick to detect hypocrisy.
posted on October 6, 2001 09:01:12 PMgravid, I agree, children can spot a liar a mile off. They can also effect true, full-blown "adult" sentiment when it behooves them. The case outlined in the Sacramento Bee was -- to me -- a perfect axample of kids -- little citizens -- wanting something, wanting to make a statement about something, and having The Adults (disguised as the ACLU) tell them, "Nope, ya can't have that! You don't know what you're asking for."
Let's put it this way. What if you were the minority (i.e. believers), and the atheist majority put, "There ain't no freakin' God," on an elementary school? And the ACLU stepped in and said that was wrong because it made those that believed in God feel alienated.
Who would they be protecting then?
posted on October 6, 2001 09:07:22 PM
Agreed - People are rarely consistant. And one of the worst things you can have is someone who wants to help you so much they start picking your fights for you. I had a cousin who was always "there for me" all the way through High School to protect me whether I wanted protecting or not. I'm still pissed at him 30 years later.
People rarely give kids credit they deserve.
posted on October 6, 2001 09:11:07 PM
Ah, Ken, leave it to you to find an example that redeems the ACLU...
As I stated above, I'm not a big fan of theirs, but I *am* marginally aware of the "good" they do to protect the rights of those who sometimes wind up classified as being on "the fringe" of society.
How did the gradeschool marquee story strike you? Doesn't it seem rather a silly thing to pursue in light of the other (far more grave/serious) matters they're following? Or is there no line at all when it comes to civil liberties?
posted on October 6, 2001 09:26:44 PM
No, I don't think it's a silly endeavor. As is commonly said in the gun rights activism circles 'if you give up one right you'll soon give another' when a person is of an opinion that the right to own semi-automatic weapons, for example only, is really not necessary to a sporting pursuit.
I don't think that there has been another time in this century that so threatened individual freedoms as this time. It's multifaceted danger, not only the most recently published work that is in response to the attack of Sept. 11. This administration is seen as a savoir of Christian hopes with the faith based proposals and the renewall of the long time court battles pertaining to abortion and prayer in school. If the ACLU seems oversensitive in that area perhaps it's because they know too well that and inch lost may be a foot fallen backward.
