posted on October 6, 2001 09:29:40 PM new sadie999, I do understand. You don't believe in God and want your rights as an atheist preserved. As far as the gradeschool incident cited above goes, you're in the minority. (Two people -- out of the entire student body -- complained.) Would you be content with minority rule in general? Or would you accept the fundamental principal that guides our democracy -- i.e.: majority rules? You have EVERY right to believe/not believe in God and/or pumpkins. I support your rights wholeheartedly. But I also support the rights of those who have a positive statement to make in support of their country, and if they link their country's well-being to a nod from "God", so what?
posted on October 6, 2001 09:41:36 PM new
Well, Ken, if you want to meet me on the lowest ladder rung, I'll agree with you. I could probably fashion a highly plausible conspiracy theory for the entire chain of events that have led us to today. Yes, I see a persistent attempt to erode our civil liberties in the name of security, and yes, I see that almost no one is standing up (shall we hail Barbara Lee?) in defiance of our dash to war and Lord knows what else.
I'm an Average American. I want my car to start in the morning and I want the grocery store shelves stocked when I get there. What do you say to me? What is it you'd have me do to avert the road our politicians have embarked upon?
posted on October 6, 2001 09:43:21 PM new
Majority rules. But not at the expense of individual rights. Once upon a time, the majority thought that blacks weren't equal to whites. There are areas in this country where the majority still feels that way. Should racism be aloud in those areas because majority rules?
Hey, you want to put God in the public schools? Fine. May I have my property taxes back please - the portion (i.e. the majority) that goes to education? Then you can put "Pink Pigs bless America" on the buildings for all I care.
posted on October 6, 2001 09:49:51 PM new
I guess what Sadie is saying is that if she has to quietly tell her children what she believes in the privacy of her home and tell her children don't argue with them at school because I will lose my job and you will get bad grades and they will beat you up after school if say you think it is all superstition. That doesn't feel quite as much like freedom as being able to plaster your view across the side of the building.
I remember being taken out in the hall and beaten with a cricket bat because I would not join my 6th grade teacher in a group prayer.
I did not mind praying - I just did not want to pray WITH them about stupid things I did not believe like praying for their dead pets in heaven. The kids used the prayer to suck up to the teacher by saying all the right things.
I can only imaigine how I would have been treated if I had said I did not believe in God. I was already a Damn Yankee.
posted on October 6, 2001 09:54:26 PM newSorry, I'm still mad about the firemen there being forced to remove big flags from their trucks so as not to offend anybody after the terrorist attack.
That happened in Berkeley, which we all know has a reputation for activism. Flags were removed so as not to provoke protesters, then the flags were reinstated with an apology. Please don't lump all Californians together, even though we all wear Birkenstocks and smoke copious amounts of "bud."
Do they still recite the Pledge of Allegiance in schools ["one nation, under God..."]? Is the song "God Bless America" a forbidden song? Are teachers now sued if they say "God bless you" when a student sneezes?
My kids began kindergarten this year at four, and immediately came home reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. Jesus, schools don't waste much time before starting the brainwashing. My kids don't even know what "allegiance" means, or most of the other words.
And yes, today one of my kids came home singing "God Bless America." I'd think, considering America's failing educational system, that schools would try for something better than filling kids' heads with meaningless gibberish and propaganda. Anybody remember reading, writing and arithmetic?
"God Bless America" has no place in a public school. Please spare my kids from religious zealotry and political dogma. Our schools are creating a nation of crack-heads. The fact that they may be God-fearing crack-heads doesn't impress me much.
posted on October 6, 2001 09:55:13 PM new
hahaha, Sadie, I'm *not* unsympatyhetic to your point of view! It truly doesn't matter to me if the kids at that gradeschool put "God Bless America" on their marquee or the next day's luncheon menu. The *point* was, they'd found something to do as a body. THAT's the value-portion of that message -- NOT its content -- and that's why I stated above that I thought the ACLU was being short-sighted in its response. We're all of us -- atheists, sinners, believers, redeemers -- struggling to cope with what happened last month. I've tried to stand far enough outside the box of my personal beliefs to see the *true* intent of the flag-waving, school-band-marching, 5%discount at the liquor store, for what it really is. We're all scared, Sadie, and we all fall back on what we think will "see us through"... for some that's a marquee invoking God, for others it's a civil disagreement on a chatboard...
posted on October 6, 2001 10:02:26 PM new
I understand then.
She has the right to believe what she wants.
And you have the right to publicly state what you believe.
posted on October 6, 2001 10:03:38 PM new gravid, I *do* understand the dilemma -- just not sure that depriving many of their view in order to shelter a few from it is the right way to go. Perhaps an HONEST "adult" dialogue about the use of "God" in a school would be far more benficial (and meaningful) than a writ from the ACLU? And when I say "adult", I mean let the KIDS have the greatest say...
twinsoft, I can only hope that gaffan will come along shortly and engage you...
posted on October 6, 2001 10:12:14 PM new
"a perfect axample of kids -- little citizens -- wanting something, wanting to make a statement about something, and having The Adults (disguised as the ACLU) tell them, "Nope, ya can't have that! You don't know what you're asking for." "
and:
"It truly doesn't matter to me if the kids at that gradeschool put "God Bless America" on their marquee or the next day's luncheon menu. The *point* was, they'd found something to do as a body."
You keep on putting forth, Plsmith, that this was the grade-school children's idea. I don't see that in the article at all.
And even if the article presented this as child-generated, I wouldn't believe it. Since when do grade school children come up with an idea like this without prompting from adults?
This looks like just another maneuver to push something in, and an opportunistic attempt at that, given the rah-rahedness going around.
These plays by anyone and everyone to promote an agenda under the guise of "patriotism" have gotten old quickly.
posted on October 6, 2001 10:18:42 PM new
I will give up for the night.
There is something deep in the heart of men that seeks to control others.
The miricle is that this country ever started with the iron grip of state religion not on it's neck. After 2 centuries almost every faction is still not satisfied with a free voice but seeks to silence the opposition.
Religion I observe is still mostly about hatred instead of love. That is why we see religeous wars all over the globe. They pay lip service to love but their actions speak of hate.
I can honestly say I have never struck anyone or denied them a kindness because of what religion they were. Just weird I guess.
posted on October 6, 2001 10:27:52 PM new
Don't go tarbaby on me now, gravid. Would it surprise you to learn at this juncture that I'm not a Christian? Nor a Muslim, nor Jewish? I cleave to a splintered sect of Hinduism -- lotsa Gods and Godesses! -- and yet somehow I'm not offended when schoolkids want "God" to bless America. Gee whiz, they might not mean MY God! How idiotic. That's the TRUE irony of religion -- we all mean the same thing no matter what name(s) we chant...
donny, since when do adults come up with an idea that doesn't benefit them directly? I'm sorry, but your see-something-foul-in-every-action bauve* just makes me wonder about you and the (paranoid) life you lead...
*way of being
edited for ubb
[ edited by plsmith on Oct 6, 2001 10:30 PM ]
posted on October 7, 2001 12:08:22 AM newMay I have my property taxes back please - the portion (i.e. the majority) that goes to education?
I want mine back too because education without God is unusable by us. In two generations in only mine and my husband's immediate families, that's 13 kids who could not attend schools we support with our tax dollars.
BTW, the middle school here has the same thing on their marquee. Haven't seen the elementary or the high school.
posted on October 7, 2001 12:20:59 AM new
And my sister wants her property taxes back too because she doesn't have any kids, and I want the portion of my taxes that go to build roads that I'll never use back, etc. etc. etc. It doesn't work that way.
Wonder away, Plsmith. Regardless, attempting to paint this as a child-movement thwarted by the grinchlike ACLU seems a bit silly. If your viewpoint has merit, make a real case for it, why portray it as a matter of a bunch of big-eyed teary tots whose candy has been stolen?
posted on October 7, 2001 06:52:57 AM new
Okay, not all my taxes back.
I don't have kids and I've never actually been upset about paying property taxes. Well, except in FL where I watched them quadruple over 10 years while the school system went from like 44th to 47th.
And, I believe that if you pay property taxes and you send your kids to a religious school that costs you money, maybe you should get some kind of a break. Same for home-schoolers.
My point is that in this country, the freedom that gives everyone the right to believe in god in anyway they please is part of the separation of church and state philosophy. So, let's keep them separate.
You know, if I were a christian, I'd be really worried about "faith based" garbage. Using common sense here, everytime the govt gives you money for something, it gives you rules. You really want govt intervention in your religion? Dangerous stuff.
You either believe in the Constitution and individual rights or you don't.
I stopped donating to the ACLU when they defended Nazis and skinheads. BUT, if they asked for a donation from me for a specific case, and I agreed with it, I'd donate in a heartbeat. And the fact that they defend Nazis and skinheads doesn't make them a bad organization in my mind - I just don't want MY money going there. So, they really just have to change their accounting system a bit, and I'd be a contributor again.
I believe tax dollars should be spent on what they are targeted for. Why does god have to be taught in public schoools? Aren't Christian parents doing their jobs at home?
Hear, hear, I thought you were dead. I haven't encountered you since the thread in which you suggested that the US should dump radioactive and medical waste on the people of Afganistan rather than costly bombs.
That made me wonder about you... and for the first time in my life I experienced reading the thoughts of someone on the lowest ladder rung. Here's the link,
read all about it.
hahaha, plsmith you represented the idea as a suggestion of a vietnam vet. But my response to you, as you said to another poster here is "phoeey".
So, you have tried to insult nearly every poster on this thread...in one way or another.
But maybe we should give you the benefit of the doubt. I just double checked and found that you recently started a thread on the benefits of flying naked. Now, you attack the ACLU. Could it be that you are just a joker?
