posted on August 17, 2000 06:57:39 PM new
Ya, sounds simple, but who's going to pay the double shipping cost? It's already hard enough to compete with U.S. based sellers, I lose shipping $ on every last item shipped.
Also, many of the PO's up here are still using the old CN23 forms [for over 2 kg parcels] where there is not a receipt. I imagine some PO's still have hundreds of them left.
The only way you can get a receipt is to insure the item. I seldom insure anything, and simply refund the buyer if something gets lost or damaged.
I've saved thousands of $ by not paying for insurance & my shipping rates are more inviting to the bidders.
posted on August 17, 2000 07:06:07 PM new
Question? I know UPS is TERRIBLE going into Canada because they own their own customs brokerage. But are they bad for going out of Canada ? Do they do the same thing going INTO the US?
posted on August 17, 2000 07:11:35 PM new
UPS sucks, I will never use them again.
Last time I checked anything over $200 going to the U.S. was also charged an outrageous International Brokerage fee.
Canada Post has DC going into the U.S. as of July 1st, but again, the cost is pretty hefty & I doubt many bidders will want to pay for that service. I only use it on VERY expensive items.
posted on August 17, 2000 09:03:02 PM new
Reddeer, why wouldn't Canadians use PayPal? So what if you can't prove you shipped something? Have fraudulent reports of non-delivery been that much of a problem for you?
I've sent out between 4000-5000 packages and I would guess only 10 or so have been reported to me as never showing up. And I could probably only prove that I shipped about 5% of the packages that I sent out. I sell paper items that usually only cost 55c to $1.25 to send. I just slap some stamps on them and drop them in the mail with absolutely no proof that I mailed them. Delivery confirmation is out since it's not available for first class mail. I'd have to ship by Priority Mail for $3.20 to use DC which costs an additional 35c. So, my customers would be paying $3.55 for shipping that previously cost them 55c to ship. So, obviously that's out. Even if it was available for first class, I wouldn't use it as I have no desire to fill out all those forms to protect myself for that 1 package out of 400 that doesn't make it to its destination. I probably will make sure that I have proof for my more valuable packages.
I'm sure Canadians will use PayPal as it will probably get them more bids.
posted on August 17, 2000 11:01:12 PM new
Bkmunroe ...... It seems like more of a headache than what it's worth to me. Is the buyer verified, can I verify I shipped the item, blah-blah-blah.
No, I haven't had a whole lot of problems over the past 3 yrs on eBay, but the ones I have had problems with were sometimes BIG $$$ items.
Does PayPal increase bids with small $ items, yes, I'm sure it does. Would it increase bids on my auctions for $100 and over items, not enough for the added headaches IMO.
Since PayPal came out I've sold approx 400 items on eBay, with only 2 people asking me if I could take PayPal. One bid, and one didn't. Oh well.
As it stands now, I don't have to worry about some go between service deciding whether I am verified, or if I shipped the goods. I like the ability of handling my own affairs.
On higher $ items I'm willing to eat the $5 BidPay fee & it removes the PITA crap that I would have to go through with PayPal.
I still have strong doubts that the "average" eBayer that is only a buyer will jump through any hoops to get verified.
The whole process of offering PayPal seems pointless to me.
I suppose if I sold bulk amounts of low $ items I might think differently, but I don't.
I suppose it's the same reason why some folks sell Internationally, and some don't?
posted on August 18, 2000 05:05:15 AM newExactly, reddeer. It just ain't cost-effective for some of us.
I also think you're wise not to trust on dumb luck for keeping you from getting scammed by a bidder claiming non-delivery. The chances of my getting audited are pretty slim, but you know what? I still keep my business expense receipts and other tax documentation for 5 years. Guess I'm just overcautious, eh, bkmunroe?
posted on August 18, 2000 06:51:06 AM newHcQ ....... Yup, that's pretty much how I see it too.
Let's just do a quick review of what it involves for me to have protection as a seller.
Damon states:
Seller Protection Guarantee
X.com also wants to protect our sellers against fraud. As you know, we have never imposed charge backs due to fraud on sellers. This is our Seller Protection Guarantee. We plan to continue this policy.
However, in order for us to absorb this major source of risk and expense, we need our sellers to play by a few simple rules. Here they are:
First, starting on August 23, 2000, sellers must be Verified in order to qualify for the Seller Protection Guarantee. There is no other way for us to protect ourselves, buyers, and other PayPal users if we cannot verify the identity of sellers. This is fundamental to the integrity of our payments system. Please see below for details on how to verify your account and why we consider this process necessary.
Not a huge problem, but not something I get overly excited about doing.
Second, please retain reasonable proof-of-shipping. Preferably, this proof would come from a shipping service that includes date of shipment, description of merchandise, and shipping address.
At least 50%-60% of my items are shipped Small Packet Air, so that rules proof-of shipping out
Third, please accept payment from only one PayPal account per purchase - do not accept multiple payments for a single item. (Payments to Business and Premier Accounts do not count against a buyer's $2,000 credit card limit, so you should always be able to sell high-dollar goods while accepting
payment from one account.
I'm limited in the amount of funds I can recieve unless I use a Buisness or Premier account
Fourth, please do not ship to countries that have a statistically high rate of fraud. For now these countries are Indonesia and Kazakhstan. We will notify you if other countries are added to the list.
I'll probably have to check the PayPal site daily for updates on what & where I can ship to?
In addition, we are working on Seller Protection Tools that will tell sellers whether buyers are Verified and whether the buyers' requested shipping address matches their credit card billing address. Once
these tools are launched (in about a month), we will be adding a fifth rule:
BidPay has done this since day 1, and I refuse to ship items unless I know in advance the shipping address matches the billing address
Only ship Unverified buyers' purchases to their credit card billing address. If the buyer is Verified, you may ship to any address. We will notify you before this rule goes into effect.
I still maintain that the average eBay buyer will not jump through this verification process to simply use a CC online
As long as you abide by these rules, X.com guarantees that you will always be protected against charge backs due to fraud.
In other words, I won't be "guaranteed" much of anything.
Sorry, too many weak links in this chain for me to get too excited about using PayPal on my auctions.
I also see a lot of unverified buyers getting PO'd when I refuse their $500 purchase via PayPal & them slamming me with a negative feedback because I refused their payment.
posted on August 18, 2000 07:08:34 AM new
Why do I have to keep asking the same question and no one answers?
HAS THERE BEEN A SINGLE CHARGE BACK YET MADE ON PAYPAL FOR AN ITEM THAT WAS SHIPPED?
Whiners have posted hundreds of "what if" messages for a problem that hasnt yet happened.
Let's talk simple math. You ship out 100 items using bidpay? At $5 per, you have had to charge an extra $500 to your customers. How many bids have you lost?
You accept CC directly? It costs you about 3% and you STILL have to worry about charge backs.
You use Paypal? It costs you nothing. And since Canada is first starting out, you can get a lot of $5 referrals and so can your customers. You get more bids and more money.
I estimate that PP has saved me $1000 in CC fees this year, had paid me several hundred dollars in referrals and I have not had one charge back. Unlike my CC account which charged me over $1000 and I had to fight three CBs.
If you dont want to use PP, then don't. But stop whining about problems that havent even happened.
posted on August 18, 2000 07:32:10 AM new
Oh, gee, sorry Yisgood. I didn't realize this board was for Pro PayPal only posts?
How many bids have I lost, well by the looks of my auctions in the past 6 months, not too damn many, but thanks for asking.
The reality is that most of my customers "prefer" to send Postal or Bank MO's, I seldom require it, but that's what they send so I'm assuming they feel safer [Postal Fraud Protection via USPS] in sending them?
At $5 per, you have had to charge an extra $500 to your customers. How many bids have you lost?
Not many. The reality is that for International customers MO's in U.S. funds cost a fistfull of $ more than $5. BidPay is dirt cheap in comparison to what their banks charge them.
Unlike yourself I prefer to plan in advance for possible problems & how I can best avoid them. I've been on eBay close to 3 yrs with over 700 transactions under my belt & not a single neg. So far, my way of doing things, seems to be working very well.
Another thing you Americans might consider is this.
Delivery Confirmation, does not prove the item was received by the high bidder.
DC is pretty much a joke when it comes right down to it.
What happens when an item is scanned at it's destination [sometimes they aren't even scanned] & the item goes MIA "before" the customer picks up their mail?
According to PayPal the seller has completed their end of the deal & if they can prove they shipped it & verify it was scanned at said destination the buyer is left to fend for themselves.
PayPal makes it sound like they're guaranteeing this, that, & everything.
The only thing they guarantee is that by handling your $, they're going to be making $.
I honestly wish I could use their services, but with the hassle involved [at this point in time] I'll have to pass.
Interesting to see that Damon was up late at night posting to all the "other" threads on the various boards, but decided not to post on this thread, eh?
posted on August 18, 2000 07:36:48 AM new
yisgood -
Are you still going to be as thrilled with everything PayPal does when it starts enforcing this provision of its TOU (from Section 1 "Eligibility":
"If you use the Service for the purpose of conducting e-commerce on a regular basis, you agree to register for, or upgrade to, a Premier or Business Account."
It's still cheaper than a merchant account, but hardly "always free."
posted on August 18, 2000 07:53:44 AM new
Redeer:
>>Oh, gee, sorry Yisgood. I didn't realize this board was for Pro PayPal only posts? <<
The problwm with all these boards is that there is almost no "discussion." Everybody talks and no one listens. I was anti-PP when they first changed their TOS. But after watching Damon soliciting opinions and changing the TOS to reflect things we asked for, I changed my mind. Everyone else is just locked into their own little world and it's "here's my opinion, don't confuse me with the facts."
>>How many bids have I lost, well by the looks of my auctions in the past 6 months, not too damn many, but thanks for asking. <<
I thought you were in Canada where PP hasnt reached yet? Then why should you have lost bids yet? You might sing a different tune when PP hits Canada and buyers wont want to pay for MO. I closed ten auctions on Tue and 8 paid me with PP.
>>The reality is that most of my customers "prefer" to send Postal or Bank MO's, I seldom require it, but that's what they send so I'm assuming they feel safer [Postal Fraud Protection via USPS] in sending them? <<
Again, are you in Canada? Then buyers dont have much of a choice, yet.
>>Unlike yourself I prefer to plan in advance for possible problems & how I can best avoid them. I've been on eBay close to 3 yrs with over 700 transactions under my belt & not a single neg. So far, my way of doing things, seems to be working very well. <<
I plan in advance for possible problems as well. I have never had a customer cheat me. I have never had a successful charge back (three attempts with direct CC). But I have never even had an attempt with PP. And despite all the whiners on the boards here, no one has yet answered my question: Has there been a single charge back for an item that was sent? Over 2 million users and not one CB reported. So why is it unsafe?
>>Another thing you Americans might consider is this. Delivery Confirmation, does not prove the item was received by the high bidder. DC is pretty much a joke when it comes right down to it. What happens when an item is scanned at it's destination [sometimes they aren't even scanned] & the item goes MIA "before" the customer picks up their mail? According to PayPal the seller has completed their end of the deal & if they can prove they shipped it & verify it was scanned at said destination the buyer is left to fend for themselves. <<
That is the way it should be. Doing business always has a risk. It is NOT Paypal's problem. It has always been up to the buyer to carefully choose a seller with good ratings, to decide whether or not insurance should be taken, etc. Just because PP came along, it doesnt mean the buyer should suddenly be 100% protected against anything that could go wrong.
>>PayPal makes it sound like they're guaranteeing this, that, & everything. <<
PP is giving the best warranty in the industry. It is better than the one I get from the CC I pay to use. It is better than the one Billpoint gives. If you want 100% guarantee, open a store and accept cash only.
>>The only thing they guarantee is that by handling your $, they're going to be making $.<<
And you are going to be making $. What's wrong with that? Billpoint charges for the same service. So does a merchant bank. And their warranty is worse.
>>Interesting to see that Damon was up late at night posting to all the "other" threads on the various boards, but decided not to post on this thread, eh? <<
Maybe because he's tired of talking to people who dont listen but just keep posting the same tired complaints.
vargas:
>>yisgood - Are you still going to be as thrilled with everything PayPal does when it starts enforcing this provision of its TOU (from Section 1 "Eligibility":
"If you use the Service for the purpose of conducting e-commerce on a regular basis, you agree to register for, or upgrade to, a Premier or Business Account."
It's still cheaper than a merchant account, but hardly "always free." <<
Someone already asked Damon this a while ago and his answer was that PP will not force anyone to sign up for a business account. If that day ever comes, I'll probably still do it because 1.9% is still a lot less than my merchant bank was charging me. And of course I will encourage my customers to use Payplace, Paydirect, Ecount, Achex and any of the other free services out there.
posted on August 18, 2000 08:27:33 AM newYou can pretty much forget about any Canadian sellers joining up. Your proof of shipping requirement rules out every Small Packet parcel leaving Canada.
How do sellers in Canada function when selling via credit cards? What do they do if they have a merchant account or use CCNow?
From what I'm reading it sounds like thousands of buyer pay by credit card and then claim the item never arrived. How do the sellers that have been accepting credit cards function?
posted on August 18, 2000 09:54:07 AM new
<< Again, are you in Canada? Then buyers dont have much of a choice, yet.>>
Am I in Canada??? Yes, wasn't that obvious?
As far as buyers having "choices" , of course they have "choices". I accept Personal Checks on probably 90% of my auctions, yet the majority of my high bidders send MO's, most of them USPS MO's. The only reason I can think of is that they must feel "safer" paying an International seller with them? It sure as hell isn't as easy, or as cheap as sending a personal check.
As a seller who "attempts" to make every buyers purchase easy & trouble free I'm all for these online payment services.
So far, as much as I hate to admit it, eBay's Billpoint seems to be the most inviting from a "buyers" perspective. Not only does Billpoint offer a $1 refund for Visa, but they promote the service on pretty much every page on eBay. [it might stink, but it's FREE advertsing for sellers that use the service]
Not only that, but from a "buyers" perspective, which service would you feel more comfortable in dealing with, a service that the site you deal on offers, or one that has zero ties with eBay?
I'm honestly trying to look at this from ALL angles. Yes I want to protect myself from PayPal's & Billpoint's loop holes, but at the same time I want to give my buyers the most convenient form of payment options as possible.
PayPal & Billpoint will both be extending their services to Canada in the very near future, I'm just "window" shopping at the moment.
posted on August 18, 2000 10:12:45 AM newNot only that, but from a "buyers" perspective, which service would you feel more comfortable in dealing with, a service that the site you deal on offers, or one that has zero ties with eBay?
As a 'newbie' BillPoint would have the edge on eBay with me. As I looked around and saw how many sellers accepted PayPal compared to BillPoint (BIG BIG difference there) and when I learned that PayPal was accepted on Yahoo, Amazon, and every other online auction service I'd be using PayPal. When it comes down to it, PayPal is advertised much more on eBay than BillPoint is, just pick a random movie, cd, game, do a search and see how many accept PayPal vs BillPoint. It isn't even close. As one news story put it, eBay's own pay service is running a distant second to PayPal.
I did not answer this post because I was not subscribed to it. I was also working from home because policy change always brings some more discussions that need to be addressed at a level much higher than mine.
International traditionally requires different policies, most of which are being ironed out. I will address the delivery confirmation concerns, but I think most of us know that 99% of transactions go through without a hitch and probably won't require DC. It is the "what if" that generates the most concern, when the "what if's" tend to be the smallest percentage of problems.
"99% of transactions go through without a hitch and probably won't require DC."
I suppose using that philosophy, I should just ship the item out to the high bidder the same day they respond to my end of auction email with their name & addy? Afterall, 99% of the time the funds would eventually show up.
uaru
"When it comes down to it, PayPal is advertised much more on eBay than BillPoint is, just pick a random movie, cd, game, do a search and see how many accept PayPal vs BillPoint"
But you see, I don't sell movies, cd's, games, etc. I sell antiques & collectibles.
Different buyers, different attitudes, and different amounts of $$$ changing hands.
As far as Billpoints advertising, surely you jest? eBay has been pushing their little baby with everything they've got. There isn't a page on eBay where the BIG honking BILLPOINT banners aren't flying high & mighty. Not to mention the way they weaseled it into the Search fields.
Now, just stop & imagine what eBay will do when the PayPal $5 verification spam crap starts up again?
Nah, I think for the most part my customers would be more open to using Billpoint over PayPal, if the choice was offered.
posted on August 18, 2000 01:40:40 PM new"Nah, I think for the most part my customers would be more open to using Billpoint over PayPal, if the choice was offered."
If that's the case then by all means I'd offer BillPoint. I've experienced a different situation which is fortunate for me because of the difference in fees.
posted on August 18, 2000 02:22:57 PM new
HI reddeer,b]Damon[/b]
"99% of transactions go through without a hitch and probably won't require DC."
I suppose using that philosophy, I should just ship the item out to the high bidder the same day they respond to my end of auction email with their name & addy? Afterall, 99% of the time the funds would eventually show up.
I was conversing about your shipments here--the 99% issue. I use ebay as well and I have never had an issue, be it buying or selling.From the feedback I have from both buyers and sellers, this appears to be the case as well.
Payments ALWAYS hit an account. Transactions are never lost and everything is ultimately traceable.
posted on August 20, 2000 11:00:30 AM new
<B>Reddeer says</B>: "Now, just stop & imagine what eBay will do when the PayPal $5 verification spam crap starts up again?"
What are you talking about? PayPal never stopped offering sign-up bonuses.
<B>Yisgood</B>: Please email me. I have a queston for you.
posted on August 21, 2000 10:12:56 AM new
HI SG52,
I was only pointing out that most transactions between Ebay members occur without a hitch. The responsibility end of this comes between the buyer and seller working to make sure there is no issue.
posted on August 21, 2000 03:55:37 PM newI was only pointing out that most transactions between Ebay members occur without a hitch. The responsibility end of this comes between the buyer and seller working to make sure there is no issue.
A re-reading seems to support an interpretation that "99% of transactions work fine, don't worry about the other 1%".
I repeat, 100% of people telling you not to worry about an insignificant 1% are themselves unwilling to be responsible for what goes wrong 1% of the time.
Can you explain The responsibility end of this comes between the buyer and seller working to make sure that there is no issue in the context of a buyer obtained chargeback for non-receipt?
It's tautologically clear, if buyer and seller resolve the issue, there is no issue. This discussion is of issues, not non-issues. This discussion is of the 1%, not the 99%.
posted on August 21, 2000 04:01:21 PM new
HI SG52,
I must digress for a second...
I think we would have had a great time debating in a forum. Thanks for keeping me on my toes
I was only stating that most of the concerns that come to light are issues that either do not arise on a regular basis and that a lot of fear surrounds the 1%, versus the 99%.
I am not asking anyone to ignore anything, only that the greatest ability to not have something happen is to resolve it originally between the two parties, without third-party intervention. If it is resolved, you are correct in stating that it is no longer an issue.
posted on August 21, 2000 04:15:40 PM newI use ebay as well and I have never had an issue, be it buying or selling.From the feedback I have from both buyers and sellers, this appears to be the case as well.
ROTFLMAO at this one, damon.
Just how many transactions have you been personally involved in as a seller? Never a deadbeat, never a slowpay, never a bidder repeatedly claiming payment is forthcoming, never a bidder insisting he never rec'd item when you KNOW you shipped, never any hysterical emails from lunatics? Never a bounced check? Never a case of bidder's remorse very, very thinly disguised as "not as represented" (yeah, I told you it was a hat and you thought you were bidding on a shovel)? Everything has always gone exactly according to plan? Wow.
If that's so, please - fill me - and the other sellers posting to AW - in on which deity you make regular sacrifices to, because although 95% of MY sales go smoothly, that 5% is a serious pain in the backside and I'd love to get on the right page with the appropriate Powers That Be.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Aug 21, 2000 04:17 PM ]
Nearly 1/3 of my transactions have been as a seller and not a buyer. I don't have nearly the volume you do, but I always found that good communications solved any potential problems.
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