posted on September 19, 2003 06:58:10 PM
Puerto Rico was a US Territory last I looked is your problem that the $$$ is leaving the US which it is not when going to PR or the fact that the people are there are brown?
As to paying more you do. Where do you think the dollars come from in the jobless recovery. You are getting reamed on a daily basis by Target, KMart, Fort, Chrystler, Nike and many others. The 3rd world workers do not benefit as a result of globalization the wealthy do.
How else can the Dick Grasso's of the world get their 140 Million Dollar bonuses.
Republican, the other white meat!
posted on September 19, 2003 07:02:47 PM
Fenix, you must mistake me for someone who cares about Mexico and their problems... I only care about the illegal alien problem that is in this country.
Not only could we, we should force them to raise wages... I hardly doubt the average Mexican would object from getting $200/month to over $200/week.... The US company that pulled out of the US might mind...
posted on September 19, 2003 07:04:38 PM
davebraun
You took it all wrong! I'm saying the money these people make is made legally, therefore what they do with it is their business. If they want to send it home, fine. Hope that's clearer for you.
BTW, my son is part Puerto Rican so don't throw the race card at me.
posted on September 19, 2003 07:10:43 PM
One of the reasons that American companies move their factories to other countries is because the average consumer keeps demanding lower and lower prices.
posted on September 19, 2003 07:26:05 PM
why dont we talk about the wealth brought into this country by the immigrants??
who is buying all these houses with cash,yes 100% cash for a house in sugarland,texas where some enron execs live??those house go for 300k-500k.
who do you think drive up the real estate value of california and hawaii,give some credit to the japanese.
yes,down in the heart of texas we have many mexicans who work and send money home,they work very hard for their money,what they do with their money is not our business,just like i dont ask you what you do with your ebay money.
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on September 19, 2003 07:36:37 PM
okay,i agree,they should apply to come legally.
but how many illegal immigrants are we talking about??
here in houston,i bet we have more than any of you,sometimes i will come across some asking if i would exchange their pesos into dollars??
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on September 19, 2003 08:23:26 PM
Twelve - how do you propose this enforcing a mandatory pay increase. You say that we can - how?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on September 19, 2003 10:17:24 PM
Keep in mind everyone, the law REQUIRES employers to keep copies of alien employees' green cards and social security cards. What the law DOESN'T require is for those employers to verify that the cards they are accepting are REAL. I have seen some pretty bogus cards accepted by employers, because they needed to fill a job, had and applicant, and knew that any old card will suffice and get them off the hook with the INS when they come calling. Lots of the indocumentados around here are hired by building contractors. Several builders I know prefer to hire aliens because, they say, those guys always show up, always want extra time, and work hard. Hereabouts, they can't find enough semi skilled help otherwise. For the record, they tell me they pay what they pay to whomever they hire, alien or otherwise, so saving money is not the issue for them, it's hiring good help. Keep in mind also, that those folks who are sending money home are still paying rent, buying cars, gas, clothes, food etc. Not all of that money is leaving the US economy. Some even buy property, and yes, it's perfectly legal for an indocumentado to buy property in the US. The maquiladoras along the border in Mexico, which are all owned and managed by US and other foreign businesses, operate in deplorable conditions in flagrant violation of Mexico's environmental laws. They get away with it because they CAN, due to the heady infusion of cash they bring to the pockets of local government. The average maquila worker earns about 5 dollars a day for a 10 hour shift. These are the places where most of the electrical parts for your "American" cars are made, as well as countless other products. Name a US company, and chances are it has at least one maquiladora up and running along the border. The huge influx of people from Southern Mexico seeking work at these plants has placed an almost unbearable strain on the infrastructure of Mexican border cities like Ciudad Juarez, Nuevo Laredo, Nogales and others. Hillsides are covered with the cardboard and old tire shack barrios of these folks who work in the plants. An inordinate number of the workers are young, single mothers.
It's real easy to say things like "Mexico should take care of it's own problems", well, tit for tat, maybe the US should do the same, including helping it's companies STAY here, and finding ways to work with the Mexican and other governments to encourage US companies operating there to pay a fair wage. Mexico used to have trade tariffs in place against US farm goods. Since NAFTA, those tariffs have been mostly lifted, putting millions of small Mexican farmers out of business. Lots of them have come here, looking for work, as there are only so many jobs in the maquiladoras, and who wouldn't rather make 5 bucks an hour as opposed to 5 bucks a day.
Also, please keep in mind that MOST Mexicans don't WANT to come to the US for work, and most, in fact, DON'T.
edited because there was for some reason about a foot and a half of space at the bottom of my post.
___________________________________
In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken
[ edited by profe51 on Sep 19, 2003 10:22 PM ]
By Sylvia Moreno
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 18, 2003; Page B05
Almost 900 workers traveling in buses from across the country will converge on Washington on Oct. 1, inspired by the Freedom Rides of the 1960s civil rights movement but focused on advocating for immigrants' rights, organizers announced yesterday.
The event, billed as the Immigrant Workers Freedom Ride, includes 18 buses that will depart from 10 cities beginning Saturday. The participants will meet in Washington on the evening of Oct. 1 for a series of rallies, a march through downtown and a visit to Congress before leaving Oct. 3 for New Jersey. The ride will culminate at a mass rally Oct. 4 in Flushing Meadows Park in Queens, N.Y.
Along the various cross-country routes, buses will stop in 103 cities to participate in gatherings and meet with political and religious leaders. A stop in Tucson will include a ceremony to commemorate illegal immigrants who died in the desert as they tried to enter the United States to find work.
Organizers said the focus of the event is to gain support from Congress and the public for legislation giving legal status to millions of illegal immigrants who work, pay taxes and contribute to the economic growth of the country.
"We don't believe we are a burden to this country," said Rafael Ernesto Gonzalez, an office cleaner in downtown Washington who immigrated here four years ago from El Salvador and is a member of the Service Employees International Union Local 82.
Gonzalez, among hundreds of thousands of Salvadorans, is living and working in the United States legally under the immigration designation of Temporary Protected Status, which expires in March 2005. But he cannot visit his country legally nor have his family reunited with him.
"It's four years that I've seen my family," he said. "We have feelings, and we get melancholy. We should not be seen as a threat to this country, but as contributors. Our immigration status should be changed."
The national coordinator of the ride compared the fight for immigrants' rights to the struggle for equal rights by the civil rights movement.
"All people are equal . . . and no one should live in the shadows of this society," said Maria Elena Durazo, the national coordinator of the ride and vice president of the Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees International Union Local 11 in Los Angeles.
posted on September 20, 2003 06:36:20 AM
question on prof's posting-
why are there so many single young mexican mothers??
mexico is a catholic state,do men desert their women easily??
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
How are illegal immigrants paying taxes? That part of the article I don't understand. Help!
While I agree that legal immigrants should have the same workers' rights as the rest of us, I can't feel the same about the illegals. Not in this economy. Every two weeks I get to look at the exorbitant amount of taxes taken from my paycheck and then every April 15th, I get to write the IRS a check for even more. All for the privilege of living in a country where my rights are whittled away little-by-little day-by-day. I get angry when I hear of a family coming illegally across the border so she can have her child here where though the grace of our welfare system that child can get health care. My own children had no health care when they were small. We prayed everyday that they would stay healthy.
If this economy was booming and we were all fat and happy, I'm sure my feelings would be different. But, I am becoming more and more disillusioned every day. Every day I am tired of hearing about the number of people without jobs, the number of people that are ill and dying because they have no access to health care.
With the economy in the state it's in, what's to happen to us if we continue an open door policy? Until we make a change in Washington, I don't think we can afford it.
posted on September 20, 2003 07:08:02 AMwhy are there so many single young mexican mothers?? mexico is a catholic state,do men desert their women easily??
Mexico is increasingly less Catholic for one thing. The church has lost it's traditional hold, especially as the Mexican middle class has grown. I guess it's just part of the worldwide trend in single motherhood. An article I read in a Mexican newspaper, I don't remember if it was La Jornada or another, said that teenage pregnancy accounts for 27 percent of all the pregnancy in Mexico.
Cheryl:
How are illegal immigrants paying taxes? That part of the article I don't understand.Help!
There is a stereotype that all illegal aliens are being paid in cash in some secretive way. That may be the case with day workers, who are picked up by contractors at a location each day and taken to work. There are lots however who receive paychecks just like everybody else in this country. Chances are twelve's office cleaners were check-paid employees. These workers are having payroll taxes and social security withheld from their pay just like anyone else, and for the most part, they won't ever recieve any benefit from it. In addition, don't forget about all the other sales related taxes they are paying each day, also just like the rest of us.
twelve:
Profe, by taking care of things here in the US, we need to make it unattractive to move...
that's exactly right, or maybe more attractive to STAY..
___________________________________
In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken
Forgive me for sounding stupid on this subject but, don't you need an SS card in order to pay into the SS fund? If so, wouldn't they have to be using forged documents in order to get a SS card? At work, I have to ask for two forms of ID. One is generally a SS card, the other a Driver's License or State ID. We have one person who is working on a Visa. I have a copy of that Visa in her file as well as her Driver's License which clearly shows she is not a US citizen. Living up north I guess I'm not as familiar with this problem.
What seems to be forgotten here is the fact that they are here ILLEGALLY. They are breaking the LAW. A law which punishes us for not obeying it. If I am subjected to the laws of this country, then so should they be. Isn't that the right thing?
posted on September 20, 2003 08:57:46 AM
Cheryl, what mostly happens is that they find a good SS and then several people use that same SS number...
At my last job we fired and reported 3 indiviuals when an investigation of the SS turned out to be very questionable... the temporary agency we hired them from got an INS raid and they lost over 40 people... sad part was that nothing happend to them...
For my business, I need fluent english speakers, so I have not had anyone not born in the US apply yet nor have I hired anyone not born here yet...
Because of the power outage in Montgomery County Maryland, my internet connection will be sporatic...just returned after looking for a gas station with power in order to get gas for the generator.
Profe answered the question about taxes...
I think that illegal immigrants are being used as scapegoats for problems that we are having with the economy while at the same time employers are taking advantage of their status. Your anger should be directed elsewhere.
posted on September 20, 2003 09:40:56 AM
Cheryl, as far as immigrants making money here and sending it home... it's a trade off. The same thing is done by Americans in other countries. When my father was in Saudi Arabia being paid by the Saudis his entire paycheck was deposited in a US account. That money was used by them to purchase land and a home when they returned to the states. While they were there, they lived on my step mothers US government pay. That was the norm among my fathers coworkers and is done by contract workers all over the world.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Men Are Like Grapes. If You Stomp on Them and Keep Them in the Dark Long Enough, They Might Turn Into Something That You Would Take to Dinner
posted on September 20, 2003 10:39:38 AM
how many illegals do you run into every day??
or you just want to pick on someone smaller than you are??
dont tell me you never get spammed by emails offering you viagra or grow your xxx leaps and bounds!!!!
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on September 20, 2003 10:46:14 AM
Cheryl, twelve is right about the good SS numbers being used...and it is entirely possible to buy a fake SS card with the number of your choice on it...around here they go for about 125 bucks and are good enough that the employers don't look twice. As long as they have a photocopy of the SS card and also of the green card, also available, they don't get in any trouble when their employees are arrested. I would say that this glitch in the law might be one place the gov't. might want to start if it is really interested in controlling illegal immigration. I doubt, however, that it actually is, and that may be the biggest stumbling block of all.
Of course you are right about the law, and the obligation that everyone inside the US' borders has to obeying it. I'm only addressing what IS, not what SHOULD BE. Laws are flagrantly violated by Americans every day. Is it right? Of course not, but that's how it IS.
___________________________________
In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken
posted on September 20, 2003 11:19:13 AM
I have to weigh in on this debate. For most of my life I was dead set against illegal immigrants because they took jobs away from legal Americans. But the truth is that the jobs they take are the worst jobs out there that legal Americans almost always refuse to take unless they are paid much more money. If every illegal alien were chased from the nation the price of many items and services would rise with huge increases. Fruits and vegetables would raise dramatically in price. Office rents would rise as janatorial services would rise dramatically. Car washes would greatly rise in price, etc. etc. It's just not wages, but most legal Americans would demand health care services and that would have to be factored in to most price increases.
It would be a huge mistake to hase the illegals out. If the nation would accept the huge inreases in goods and services and pay the replacement workers a decent wage and benefits then it would be great but that will probably never happen.
-------------- sig file ----------- President John F. Kennedy said, "There are three things which are real: God, human folly and laughter. The first two are beyond our comprehension, so we must do what we can with the third."
posted on September 20, 2003 11:50:07 AM
Great! Then we're in agreement. Wages need to be raised to an acceptable level and some form of basic health care should be established.
What wage should we pay a worker cutting lettuce in Salinas all day? It's got to be more than they're getting now. If we'll all accept paying $3 for a head of lettuce instead of $1.25 it would work. But wait, NAFTA mean the lettuce can still come across the border from Mexico at $1.25 a head of lettuce anyway.
-------------- sig file ----------- President John F. Kennedy said, "There are three things which are real: God, human folly and laughter. The first two are beyond our comprehension, so we must do what we can with the third."
posted on September 20, 2003 02:25:17 PM
Just so everyone knows, my anger IS NOT aimed at the illegal immigrants. It is aimed at those American companies who move into foreign countries and who DO NOT pay the workers there a decent living wage!!!!!
posted on September 20, 2003 02:40:44 PM
"Do you wonder why Legal US citizens want higer wages? It is not cheap to live here no matter where you are..."
Do you wonder why the minimum wage is maintained at the level it currently is? Do you oppose healthcare for every American worker as part of their benefits pay package.
Do you know anyone that has ever picked fruit for a living? Worked in a sweatshop? Or that can exist on the current minimum wage.
Have you ever not bought an item because the workers who produced it are or were exploited.
Do you support the AFL-CIO or Teamsters Union or do you believe that management has the best interest of the worker as their primary concern?
Can you find anything in Target/Walmart/Costco/Kmart/Best Buy or any other major chain that is Made in the USA. What? Do you use this product.
How many parts of the product you believe to be made in America are actually made in America?
It's very easy to blame the victim of the same system that victimizes you for the system. They are a symtom not the cause.
Republican, the other white meat!
posted on September 20, 2003 03:31:07 PM
Exactly, money is much more important than the workers that make the products. It's all about money and nothing about caring for the welfare of people. A few people do care and they are tolerated by the others.
-------------- sig file ----------- President John F. Kennedy said, "There are three things which are real: God, human folly and laughter. The first two are beyond our comprehension, so we must do what we can with the third."
posted on September 21, 2003 08:38:36 AM
shopwhining - how many illegals do you run into every day??
I think that depends on where you live. Those who live in the boardering states with Mexico see it everyday...many times a day. Those in the North are most likely only to read about it and not be as concerned.
Maybe reading some of the newspapers from the states which share a boarder might put things more in prespective for you. Read the problems their state economies are facing while they deal with this issue. In Brownsville, TX, and many, many other towns one can watch the illegals crossing the Rio Grande in groups, in broad daylight and no one is stopping them.
