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 bunnicula
 
posted on April 1, 2004 07:05:29 AM new
There's something seriously wrong with you!
******

Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there --Clare Booth Luce
 
 Helenjw
 
posted on April 1, 2004 07:47:38 AM new

Photos of Fallujah Car Attack - Gettyimages

 
 Helenjw
 
posted on April 1, 2004 08:08:34 AM new

Thursday, April 01, 2004

9 Americans Killed in and around Fallujah; Bodies Desecrated
Juan Cole

The amount of violence against Americans on Wednesday was remarkable, with 5 US soldiers killed by a roadside bomb and four civilian security men killed in Fallujah. But what was really striking was the quality of the violence.

An angry crowd dragged the bodies of the dead security men from their gutted vehicle and spent energy and time to inflict various indignities on the corpses, beating them, tying some of them up under a bridge over the Euphrates, and then dragging them behind cars.

Although we are calling them security, the four American civilians killed were very likely ex-US military, most probably from special operations units like the Navy Seals. The special ops units have been losing men to the private security firms, who pay between $100,000 a year and $200,000 a year, rather more than do the US armed services. And, it seems to me likely that the people in Fallujah knew that they had hold of US military men.

What would drive the crowd to this barbaric behavior? It is not that they are pro-Saddam any more, or that they hate "freedom." They are using a theater of the macabre to protest their occupation and humiliation by foreign armies. They were engaging in a role reversal, with the American cadavers in the position of the "helpless" and the "humiliated," and with themselves playing the role of the powerful monster that inscribes its will on these bodies.

This degree of hatred for the new order among ordinary people is very bad news. It helps explain why so few of the Sunni Arab guerrillas have been caught, since the locals hide and help them. It also seems a little unlikely that further US military action can do anything practical to put down this insurgency; most actions it could take would simply inflame the public against them all the more.

It seems likely to me that the guerrilla violence will continue for years, since it has a firm class base in the Sunni Arab rentiers who had benefitted from Sunni dominance in the Baath, and to whom the best jobs, infrastructure and most power had been thrown. They are not going to be quietly reduced to a small powerless and much less wealthy minority.

The only hope is political. The Sunni Arabs have to be convinced that they are not playing a zero-sum game. A zero-sum game is one where there is only one pie, and it always stays the same size. In a zero-sum game, if your rivals get a bigger piece of the pie, then your piece will inevitably shrink.

But politics does not have to be a zero-sum game. The Iraqi economy has the potential to expand greatly. So the pie won't stay the same size, and Shiites could get richer without robbing the Sunni Arabs. Likewise, in a parliamentary system, the Sunni Arabs could make coalitions with Kurds and moderate Shiites in such a way as to be a key player and to retain a great deal of political power and to forestall the radical Shiites from taking over. A minority can leverage its power by being a swing vote.

Unless the Sunni Arabs are drawn into parliamentary politics and convinced that the new game is not a zero-sum game, the bombs will continue to go off.

AFP adds:

' In Baaquba, north of Baghdad, four policemen and six civilians were wounded in a car bomb explosion that shook residents awake early Wednesday, police said.

In the northern city of Mosul, mortar fire targeted a US military base during the night, according to an officer of the Iraqi Civil Defence Corps (ICDC) paramilitary forces.

There was no confirmation from the US military.

And in the central Shiite holy city of Najaf, about 200 students demonstrated outside city hall to protest recent police "repressive acts". '



 
 Twelvepole
 
posted on April 1, 2004 08:33:10 AM new
You must be jealous hibberst that that dead soldier is still more man than you'll ever be.


AIN'T LIFE GRAND...

http://www.nogaymarriage.com/
 
 kiara
 
posted on April 1, 2004 08:37:07 AM new
Media Are Torn Over the Images

It is not clear whether the 80 seconds of video Wednesday showing images of charred American bodies being beaten and dangled from the steelwork of a bridge over the Euphrates River will come to define the war in Iraq.

But once again, broadcasters and news executives were torn between a question of taste and the demand to give viewers and readers information that could affect the course of history.

"War is a horrible thing. It is about killing," ABC News "Nightline" Executive Producer Leroy Sievers said in an unusual message to the program's e-mail subscribers discussing the issues posed by Wednesday's killings. "If we try to avoid showing pictures of bodies, if we make it too clean, then maybe we make it too easy to go to war again."

But the real effect of the images on Americans could be felt just months from now.

"These are the kinds of pictures that will linger," said John Schulz, dean of Boston University's College of Communications and a former faculty member at the National War College.

"They'll be there in November when people go to vote."

Media and Images




 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 08:38:28 AM new
This degree of hatred for the new order among ordinary people is very bad news.


This hatred has always been there. Born, bred, admired and taught by saddam. They are his strongest supporters.


They aren't 'ordinary people'. People who would do these deeds to other human beings are 'evil'. And they will pay for what they did, rest assured.



Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 Libra63
 
posted on April 1, 2004 08:43:46 AM new
hibbertst- Great way to get attention. You now are on IGNORE and I wish/hope that everyone does.


 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 08:44:39 AM new
"They'll be there in November when people go to vote."


They sure will. And I'd bet these actions, and those recently in Spain, will bring even more support to this President for his willingness to confront terrorists like these people. American's will see just what kind of threat we're dealing with and won't want an anti-war, anti-troop-funding, ultra liberal flying a white flag to people like this.



Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 Helenjw
 
posted on April 1, 2004 08:56:06 AM new

Thanks for the link, Kiara.

I believe that the photos should be published. At this point, some consciousness raising is in order. Hopefully, as in the case of Vietnam, the American people will get the message that this war is unjustified and unnecessary...a horrific blunder.


"These are the kinds of pictures that will linger," said John Schulz, dean of Boston University's College of Communications and a former faculty member at the National War College.

"They'll be there in November when people go to vote."

Helen



 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 09:24:40 AM new
killings
29 minutes ago
Add U.S. National - AFP to My Yahoo!
WASHINGTON (AFP) - With graphic photos of burned and mutilated bodies on the front pages of US newspapers, the United States was in shock over the four Americans killed in the troubled Iraqi city of Fallujah.
AFP Photo

Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 09:32:45 AM new
taken from the same Yahoo news that my above post was.


The White House said President George W. Bush (news - web sites) saw images of the "[b]despicable barbaric attacks" and that the United States would not be "intimidated."
"We're going to stay the course and finish the job[/b]," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.


"These thugs and terrorists cannot intimidate us. Our will and our resolve remain firm. This is about helping the Iraqi people realize a better future. We will not let thugs or terrorists prevent that from happening."



The events in Fallujah were also a grim warning to dozens of companies that employ American contractors in Iraq (news - web sites).
"The graphic images of the unprovoked attack and subsequent heinous mistreatment of our friends exhibits the extraordinary conditions under which we voluntarily work to bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people," the company that employed the men said in a tribute.


"We grieve today for the loss of our colleagues and we pray for their families. The names of the victims will not be released out of respect for their families," Blackwater Security Consulting said in a statement.


The company, based in North Carolina, said its workers, former police and US Special Forces troops, "work side-by-side, every day" with US-led coalition forces to bring essential goods and services to the Iraqi people and coalition members.



"Our tasks are dangerous and while we feel sadness for our fallen colleagues, we also feel pride and satisfaction that we are making a difference for the people of Iraq." Blackwater also helps to provide security for the US civilian administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer.



The four Blackwater staff were, however, in vehicles believed to have been escorting a food delivery to a US military base when they were ambushed in Fallujah.



The bodies of two of the victims were hung from a bridge straddling the Euphrates River. Rocks were hurled at the corpses.



The US government has awarded hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of contracts to private firms such as Blackwater to defuse roadside bombs, escort food convoys and protect visiting dignitaries.



Civilian security forces can earn more than 15,000 dollars a month.
After hearing early reports of the killings, Susie Randolph, immediately feared for her husband, David, a former police officer now heading a Blackwater security team based near Fallujah, which he calls Iraq's "baddest town," the Charlotte Observer newspaper reported.



It said that Randolph called his wife in North Carolina by satellite phone on Wednesday afternoon to tell her his group was safe.
Susie Randolph said she could hear US helicopters firing in the background and after 15 minutes, her husband hung up saying some other workers were pinned down and needed help.



The three main US networks all began their Wednesday evening newscasts with video of the grisly aftermath of the attack in the city of Fallujah, warning viewers about the disturbing images.
 


On Thursday, the Washington Post published a front page photo of people beating a body near a burning car. The New York Times showed two bodies hanging from the bridge. A Wall Street Journal editorial said the mob killing was a "wake-up call to the occupation forces that democracy will have a hard time taking root in Iraq so long as justice takes a holiday."



Experts have warned that foreign contractors in Iraq will increasingly become targets for attacks and insurance and security costs have risen in recent weeks.

Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 09:41:55 AM new
And just for helen....since she's always sooooo concerned that the POOR little children are suffering in this war....


Men with scarves over their faces hurled bricks into the blazing vehicles. A group of boys yanked a smoldering body into the street and ripped it apart. Someone then tied a chunk of flesh to a rock and tossed it over a telephone wire.
"Viva mujahedeen!" shouted Said Khalaf, a taxi driver. "Long live the resistance!"



Nearby, a boy no older than 10 ground his heel into a burned head. "Where is Bush?" the boy yelled. "Let him come here and see this!"



Masked men gathered around him, punching their fists into the air. The streets filled with hundreds of people. "Falluja is the graveyard of Americans!" they chanted.


Several news crews filmed the mayhem. The images of a frenzied crowd mutilating bodies were reminiscent of the scene from Somalia in 1993, when a mob dragged the body of an American soldier through the streets of Mogadishu.



That moment shifted public opinion and eventually led to an American pullout.
The White House blamed terrorists and remnants of Saddam Hussein's former government for the attack. "This is a despicable attack," Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, told reporters, adding that "there are some that are doing everything they can to prevent" a transfer of sovereignty to an Iraqi government on June 30.



American military officials said the violence in Falluja, however chilling, would not scare them away. "The insurgents in Falluja are testing us," said Capt. Chris Logan, a marine. "They're testing our resolve. But it's not like we're going to leave. We just got here."



Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 kiara
 
posted on April 1, 2004 10:12:27 AM new
Linda, I mentioned yesterday that it was disturbing to see the children that were involved in this. Yes, those children are suffering. That they have to endure sights like this and that they participate in it is very disturbing. These children are witnessing evils that will affect them for the rest of their lives, if they live any length of time at all.

Many children in the Eastern world have been indoctrinated with hatred towards the Western world since they were born. They don't know any better.

But then for years America has thumbed its nose at Eastern cultures with their political actions and also when they have visited, showing no regard or respect for the ways that others choose to live. Hence the term "Ugly American".


 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 10:34:20 AM new
[thumbed its nose[/i]

To understand more clearly, kiara, are you suggesting this is OUR fault these people act out in these ways?



Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 kiara
 
posted on April 1, 2004 10:44:05 AM new
They are insurgents motivated by hatred and they are totally irrational. Bush jumped in there and stirred them up without thinking of the consequences. He couldn't even handle the war in Afghanistan and then he started this mess.

 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 10:51:32 AM new
That's what I thought....you do. figures.


Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 Helenjw
 
posted on April 1, 2004 11:06:53 AM new


"That's what I thought....you do. figures."


Most thinking people recognize by now that this war is a horrific blunder by Bush and the fact that you don't "figures".

Helen



[ edited by Helenjw on Apr 1, 2004 11:08 AM ]
 
 kiara
 
posted on April 1, 2004 11:28:00 AM new
Linda, those insurgents would act out among anyone they hate, even their own people. Life means nothing to them.

Bush should have studied all of this before jumping in there.

The insurgents think everything they do is justified...... sort of like Bush.

 
 kraftdinner
 
posted on April 1, 2004 11:33:00 AM new
What other kinds of pictures would you prefer to see from a war? The U.S. didn't have any problems showing us the Hussein brothers. Why is this picture different?

Kiara, your post said it best -

"If we try to avoid showing pictures of bodies, if we make it too clean, then maybe we make it too easy to go to war again."

The same people who don't want to see what goes on in slaughterhouses are the same ones "disturbed" by the publishing of Hibbert's picture. It's graphic, it's sad, but it's the truth.


[ edited by kraftdinner on Apr 1, 2004 12:21 PM ]
 
 Helenjw
 
posted on April 1, 2004 11:40:32 AM new

U.S. Vows to 'Hunt Down' Attackers
April 1, 2004

The chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq vowed Thursday that American forces would "hunt down" those responsible for Wednesday's "bestial" killing and mutilation of four civilian contractors in Fallujah.

"We will respond," said Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt. "We are not going to do a pell-mell rush into the city. It's going to be deliberate. It will be precise and it will be overwhelming. . . . We will reestablish control of that city and we will pacify that city."

~

ie... like Vietnam...destroy the village to save the village?




[ edited by Helenjw on Apr 1, 2004 11:42 AM ]
 
 Reamond
 
posted on April 1, 2004 11:54:16 AM new
Thugs and terrorits did this ? It couldn't possibily be Iraqis who want foreign invaders out of their country ?

Just think about if a foreign military came into America and deposed our government and then told us how we would administer and form our new government.

This invaision of Iraq was based on lies and is the wrong fight in the wrong country.

Bush has gotten us into a mess in Iraq and it has done nothing to stem terrorism and Iraq had nothing to do with al Qeada.

Vote the a$$hole out in November.

 
 hibbertst
 
posted on April 1, 2004 12:17:32 PM new
You must be jealous hibberst that that dead soldier is still more man than you'll ever be. - Twelvehole

"Awwww now my feelings are hurt..."


AIN'T LIFE GRAND

 
 Twelvepole
 
posted on April 1, 2004 12:25:38 PM new
That picture will probably cost at least 100 Iraqi dead...works for me, I hope they post it all across the nation...
Give our people reason to shoot first and ask later...


I hope they find those "boys" in a ditch sometime soon.



AIN'T LIFE GRAND...

http://www.nogaymarriage.com/
 
 kraftdinner
 
posted on April 1, 2004 12:59:46 PM new
You hope it's posted all across the nation so it'll make Americans want to kill more Iraqis? Are you joking? When pictures of dead Iraqis are shown or talked about, it's referred to as part of the war - collateral damage. When dead Americans are shown, it's a travesty. Don't you see the hypocrisy, Twelve?

 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 02:17:32 PM new
The insurgents think everything they do is justified...... sort of like Bush.


lol at Bush should have studied all this.
Guess you forgot his speech where he spoke about evil and chosing sides. This is the evil he spoke of in action right before your eyes. And why he said you're either with us or against us. I'm on our side. This evil needs to be destroyed.







Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 ebayauctionguy
 
posted on April 1, 2004 02:30:24 PM new
I agree with you Linda. What they did to the bodies was evil. Before we got there, these evil "people" were actually in positions of power and they committed atrocities like this for decades.



 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 02:30:55 PM new
reamond - You're flip flopping just like kerry does.


Now YOU who said, in the past, that genocide was the only thing that would work against terrorists nations like this....now say: "It couldn't possibily be Iraqis who want foreign invaders out of their country?"


This group has always been the strongest supporters of saddam and what his regime stood for. How sad you are so very understanding of how THEY must feel when the the people they murdered were there to aid the Iraqi people who want to govern themselves and are happy saddam is no longer in power.




How very, very sad.

Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 kiara
 
posted on April 1, 2004 02:48:05 PM new
I'm on our side.

Linda, before you spin too far out of control here, please understand that I am not on the side of the insurgents nor do I approve of what they did just because I disapprove of what Bush did.

Gruesome Iraq Images Could Shake U.S. Opinion

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Graphic images of Americans being mutilated in Iraq could powerfully shake U.S. public support for the occupation and may play into the presidential campaign, pollsters and media analysts said on Thursday.

"These pictures speak volumes. It's just what the Bush administration did not want. Americans are seen here as real victims, not just statistics," said pollster John Zogby.

The administration has made strenuous efforts to keep the news from Iraq as upbeat as possible. It has banned TV crews from filming at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, where the bodies of dead U.S. servicemen arrive back to the country. President Bush has not attended any funerals of personnel killed in Iraq.

Impact of Images

 
 Linda_K
 
posted on April 1, 2004 03:36:35 PM new
kiara - I don't need to spin anything. Everyone's words are here for all to read and form their own opinions on which side anyone stands.


Gruesome Iraq Images Could Shake U.S. Opinion

could...is the operative word here.


Those who supported this war because they felt saddam needed to be removed....will find these pictures proof of the evil that these people are capable of.


To those who didn't support the war the pictures will give them more reason to want to
wave the white flag, and have our troops go running home with their tails between their legs.


But to some who opposed the war they just might become more aware of what kind of people we're dealing with in Iraq....those who don't want to see a free Iraq. It might just open their eyes to what these people have in store for all American's....if only given the chance.



Re-elect President Bush!!
 
 kiara
 
posted on April 1, 2004 04:13:50 PM new
kiara - I don't need to spin anything. Everyone's words are here for all to read and form their own opinions on which side anyone stands.

And Linda, it looks like you sit there and lol and form your opinion without even knowing what I think, just as you went on your merry way thinking I was supporting Kerry.

I will repeat again that I am not on the side of the insurgents nor did I say that the Americans should turn tail and get out of there now. Nowhere have I ever stated that. They have stirred up a lot of trouble and Iraq is on the brink of civil war now so I truly doubt they can just pull out. Bush had no strategy so they have to deal with it now.

ie... like Vietnam...destroy the village to save the village?

Yes, looks like that may happen.


 
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