posted on September 13, 2000 01:40:11 PM new
Hi all,
I can tell that many of you are upset, I would just ask you to review the information below.
It's important to note that this message is simply to remind our user of our Terms of Use -- which require accounts using our service for business use to register for a Business or Premier account. These terms have been in effect since X.com began offering Business and Premier accounts in June. It is also important to note, that X.com's PayPal service REMAINS FREE for consumer and personal use.
What is business use and who should have a Business account? Here is the relevant text of the message:
"What type of activity do we classify as "business use"? Using PayPal to collect payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website, personal homepage, or other forum counts as business use. Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use. If you have a Personal Account and you use it for business purposes, we ask that you comply with our terms of use and upgrade."
Our service is still the best around, at the lowest possible prices. And there are even more great features coming next month:
Earned income on your X.com PayPal account
Debit cards
International
Shopping carts
To provide the service, over and above the credit card costs, we provide and incur costs with:
Providing Buyer and Seller Protection against fraudulent transactions
I appreciate the feedback that you all have thrown my way, and I would like to apologize for my inability to answer every post. I would like to add that there are many things to running the business that may not be readily apparent to the end users. We are still the most feature-rich service available -- and the least expensive -- in relation to the products and services we currently offer and will be offering.
Many thanks for your support and for your feedback.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:45:47 PM new
Sorry, WRONG!
Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use.
It is not PayPal's job to define me as a business simply because I sell a few of my personal items on eBay. Oh, there's that word... PERSONAL. Yes, I use my Personal PayPal account to sell Personal items on eBay.
I guess that makes me NOT A BUSINESS.
So, no upgrade for me! Thanks for clarifying the issue Damon!
"My possessions are causing me suspicion." - Neil Finn
posted on September 13, 2000 01:46:34 PM new
THIS is the Great Announcement you have been touting in all the threads today concerning forcing folks to upgrade their accounts??? It the same old BS....
posted on September 13, 2000 01:48:13 PM new
so what you're basically saying is that 'paypal is free' died when business accounts came in. The TOS changed then, and says that if you sell items you are expected to pay.
I repeat. when I signed up in January and touted paypal to users and fellow sellers, the service was presented to me as free, and there was no "personal use vs business use" distiction. making the distiction now, or in June, or whenever, and using it to charge, is exactly what many people are saying over on the EBO. bait and switch.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:50:38 PM new
I want to know what exactly is the cut off point for classification for a business account. In the last 30 days I have received 2 payments on my paypal account and paid different sellers from my account. Does this make me a business? How about paypal define what is a business account? That is what a lot of people want to know.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:54:02 PM new
Damon is skeered to answer such a direct question, so I'll do it for you.
Yes, according to PayPal you are NOW A BUSINESS if you have sold even one item on an auction site.
You must now think and act like a business, which means you can no longer use your Personal PayPal account. It must be upgraded because that widget you found in your grandma's garage and sold on eBay for $17.36 has transformed you into a business.
"My possessions are causing me suspicion." - Neil Finn
posted on September 13, 2000 01:58:16 PM new
Damon is pretty busy right now.
After this blows over we will be tripling the rate to 6 percent. We have costs you know.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:00:39 PM new
Hi sweil,
I do not think selling an item on eBay makes you a business. However, if you are going to utilize PayPal for business use, they you should be using a business account.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:03:47 PM new
jrscharton,
That's what most of us think... Simply selling stuff on eBay doesn't make you a business.
However, PayPal is saying just the opposite... If you have sold ANYTHING on eBay, you are a business in their eyes.
I feel sorry for Damon today... He's thinking, "I hate my employers. They are the scum of the earth." Yet he has to put on a happy face and be their mouthpiece for all the lies.
"My possessions are causing me suspicion." - Neil Finn
posted on September 13, 2000 02:09:54 PM new
Guessing Damon will pay more attention to this thread that HE started than Barry's where I posted this a few minutes ago. So....here you have it:
I'll try to make this simple, PPD.
I do not want bells and whistles. I do not want any of these spiffy-diffy things you are offering to PayPal Business users. Why, you ask? I am not a business. Most of the funds I have in my PayPal acct go right back out to buy other things - like school clothes and shoes for the kids. When I'm lucky, I have enough I transfer it to my bank account.
I do not need earned income on my X.com PayPal account.
I do not need debit cards - I have a bank, thankyouverymuch.
I do not need International - for that matter, you been promising THAT for a long time, too.
I do not need Shopping carts - if I was a business, I'd get my own damn merchant account.
I do not need your 24/7 Customer Service(over 350 representatives answering in-bound calls/emails) - hell, it's not ever worked for me in the past. I send a specific question, I get canned response. Ooooh - very
efficent.
As for: Providing Buyer and Seller Protection against fraudulent transactions - I thought THAT was why we "verified" this last time. Or did I miss something.
It's baloney, Damon. You know it. I don't need all that stuff cuz I'm not a business. I'm just a thirty something mom trying to help make ends meet at home. But you say I'm a business because I sell a few trinkets on eBay.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:17:48 PM new
Oh, and I did not sign up for x.com. I deliberately chose PayPal over X.com, because I did not need all the extra crap - I have a bank. Just a basic, easy way to transfer funds for eBay stuff. Both my sales and my purchases. I cringed when X.com got involved, but we were assured that it would not affect how PayPal was run. LIES.
I have defended PayPal in the eBay Outlook over and over again. Now I look like an idiot.
I am not amused to find all the naysayers were right.
There has sure been a lot of speculation about our business accounts today! I realize we haven't been clear enough about this new feature. I'd like to take a minute and go through the questions I've seen and hopefully answer them to everyone's satisfaction. Here goes!
Will people be forced to upgrade to business accounts?
No. We do ask business users to upgrade to a business account, but because of the premier features we will be offering business accounts, we believe that businesses will choose to upgrade themselves.
*****
Q, (by Tomwii): I think the main confusion that exists concerns the urban legend that sprung up overnight regarding the mechanism by which one becomes a "business" customer of PayPal! So, please answer this question: "If I use PayPal (either sending or receiving funds) more than 30 times within any given month, am I INVOLUNTARILY converted into a "business" account?" I think a simple but empathic "NO" answer to this question would reassure many loyal Pay Pal enthusiasts! Thank you!
PayPalPaul: Alright, here goes: "No." I know that was simple, I hope you can feel the empathy.
PayPalPaul :I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. We are NOT forcing anyone to upgrade to our Premier/Business Account. Not at 30 payments or at any other number.
Although it is important for our revenue model that businesses will upgrade to a business account, we believe that we are improving our services to a point where they will WANT to upgrade themselves.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:39:17 PM new
PayPalDamon:
Since you like to jump around, I'll copy my post from the other thread to this one.
I appreciate the feedback that you all have thrown my way, and I would like to apologize for my inability to answer every post. I would like to add that there are many things to running the business that may not be readily apparent to the end users. We are still the most feature-rich service available -- and the least expensive -- in relation to the products and services we currently offer and will be offering.
This is why PayPal should have been upfront about everything from the start. Lies, half-truths, and evasive answers ALWAYS come back to bite you in the rear. The damage that PayPal has caused itself with this fiasco has really destroyed what little bit of credibility you guys had regained following the verification nonsense. The heads at PayPal can't seem to take a lesson!
I really don't see why you put up with this crap. Obviously YOU have been lied to by your own company. And in situations like these your job requires you to lie to us to try to keep the chickens in the coop. I'm sorry but you guys knocked down the door on this one. Many of the chickens have already fled with many more to follow. And most of those chickens are the sellers, the very people that PayPal needs in order to survive. If no sellers are willing to accept PayPal, where can the buyers use it? I have already started using Yahoo Paydirect and the buyers do seem to like it. By the way, you should tell your boss to read the Yahoo Paydirect TOU and take notes.
And don't be lulled into thinking that only the sellers that read and post on these boards will be the ones to leave. If you do, you'll be very badly mistaken. You guys have spent an aweful lot of money on referral fees, seemingly for naught. Good luck, goodbye, good day!
posted on September 13, 2000 02:50:23 PM new
On July 18th, someone posted a problem with AUCTION PAYMENTS on this thread http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=41&thread=812. Your response at that time was "You can downgrade to a personal account". Since this was posted AFTER the new TOS you keep refering to in June, how can this TOS be the law?
"I wouldn't be telling people this in a public forum if I wasn't telling the truth about the matter."
Unfortunately, I must now say YES YOU WOULD BE TELLING PEOPLE THIS IN A PUBLIC FORUM IF IT WAS THE TRUTH ABOUT THE MATTER OR NOT! I guess that's also why none of the questions about the guarantees that you were waiting for responses from above never did get answered.
[ edited by auctionee on Sep 13, 2000 02:54 PM ]
[ edited by auctionee on Sep 13, 2000 02:55 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 02:52:16 PM new
paypaldamon,
You did explain that someone selling one item a month will be considered a business. The rest of your response sounds like a
canned advertisement I got from a guy when I
called your 800# posted in Ebay Outlook. He wasn't trying to answer questions, he was reading from a paper. He
would just start over as I ask another question.
PP had PPPaul assure customers they wouldn't be forced to upgrade
to Premier/Business in June. Why were some ungraded last night/today automatically?
The way PP ask for verification leaves alot
to be desired too.
I was waiting to see what PP had to say before I cancelled my new account. I have seen nothing to change my mind.
LabRat....again!
[Always included in someone's experiment!]
posted on September 13, 2000 02:56:56 PM new
Damon,
I have used PayPal a LOT because I buy a lot, mostly clothes for my kids. Occasionally, I have sold things on eBay - mostly clothes my kids have outgrown. I do this just so I don't have to have a garage sale. Does that make me a business? I was just getting ready to list a ton of fall and winter stuff that doesn't fit this year because I HATE to have garage sales. Will PayPal decide that I am operating a used clothing business? I have never once PURCHASED something to sell on eBay. I have only sold personal items. I have never sold to a business, either, which makes each and every one of my transactions "person to person" or FREE according to the spiel. The venue does not change the "person to person" nature of the transaction into a business one. I'm afraid your employers may be confused about that that simple and irrefutable truth.
Please answer this question directly:
Under these facts, will I be forced to become a business user? I am 100% certain that the IRS doesn't consider those who have occasional tag sales to be operating a business, regardless of whether such sales take place on the driveway or on the internet. What I want to know is whether PayPal considers this type of usage a business use.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:57:38 PM new
Now taking bets... How long will PayPal survive? I really thought they'd be around longer, but it was screwed up by the very people running it.
Damon, how's that resume coming along?
I give PayPal 4 months, and then it's dead.
"My possessions are causing me suspicion." - Neil Finn
posted on September 13, 2000 03:00:03 PM new
Eventer -
As of 10/1, 1.9 on credit card transactions only, PayPal balance and checking account transfers at a "reduced rate". Wonder why they won't tell us what these "reduced rates" are....
posted on September 13, 2000 03:04:09 PM new
HI Geocam,
The description you gave me, from all indications you have given me, is no.
The accounts we are asking to upgrade are the ones that sell goods/merchandise on a regular or part-time basis for a business purpose (profit) and not someone that sells personal items from time-to-time.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:16:26 PM new
Thank you for the quick reply, Damon. I feel very fortunate that I have escaped "so far." I want to go on record, though, as stating that I find PayPal's recent actions appalling. It is so outrageous it reminds me of the OTT situations my law school professors used to create for exam questions. I don't know if they could have dreamed up a better example of bait and switch.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:55:29 PM new
Looks like I will no longer accept Paypal as a payment option for the buyers of my normally under 10.00 dollar personal belongings. Ebay is just an easier garage sale for this rural america person. No way will I use that service if they start charging me, only about one in five of my buyers want to pay that way anyhow. Paypal you must be taking lessons from ebay and forgetting about the "little guy" seller who made you what you are today...shame on you both.
Kerrydaway, moving to yahoo me thinks
Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be
criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do and damned if you
don't. Eleanor Roosevelt
posted on September 13, 2000 04:34:55 PM newKerrydaway, moving to yahoo me thinks
I have already been accepting payment through PayDirect for a few weeks now. And I have been very pleasantly surprised by the users accepting it. What I have found is that most everyone is familiar with Yahoo already. They don't have as big a hurdle to jump to get started as PayPal did when they started. Over 70% of the customers that I have recommended PayDirect to have signed up. If more sellers would simply offer the option, PayDirect will over take PayPal and Billpoint in a relatively short time.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:56:28 PM new
I want to respond to the accusation that PayPal somehow lied about its policy. This is untrue and unfair.
The login reminder page restates a policy that has been in place for months. The facts:
1. Below, in full, is the email that we sent to users in July. The relevant portion clearly states that "businesses using PayPal are required by our terms of use to create a Business Account."
2. A clear "Rules" box on our "Personal vs. Premier/Business Account" page (which highlights the differences between account types) states the requirement that businesses must sign up for a business account. This box has been on our site since June.
3. Our terms of use have also stated for weeks that if you are using PayPal to conduct "e-commerce on a regular basis," you need to sign up for, or upgrade to, a Premier or Business account.
We have always said that PayPal is free for personal use. That remains true today. We have also always said that business use requires a Premier or Business account.
I realize that there are a number of occasional sellers who want clarification on what constitutes business use. Obviously, there is a big difference between the occasional seller who sells one beanie babie a month, and a seller who sells dozens of items per month. Today's reminder was only directed at sellers who conduct e-commerce on a regular basis.
It is not possible for PayPal to subsidize these businesses and continue to provide this service for all.
From: PayPal News [[email protected]]
Date: Saturday, July 8, 2000
Subject: Important news about your PayPal account
Dear [FIRSTNAME],
Last month we wrote to tell you about the launch of
PayPal’s new Premier and Business Accounts. These
accounts included premium features such as 24/7 customer
service support and an automatic daily sweep of funds into
your bank account. And we also promised you that many
more premium tools were still to come. Now, we at X.com are
pleased to deliver PAYPAL'S LATEST SET OF FEATURES for
Premier and Business users:
· Web Accept: accept payments directly on your website
· Auction Tools: new ways to manage your online auctions
with ease
· Batch Pay: send affiliate payments to thousands of
people at once
· Downloadable Transaction Log
· Unlimited Credit Card Payments
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
ACCEPT MONEY ON YOUR HOMEPAGE
Our new Web Accept tool lets you accept payments directly
on your website. By posting Web Accept buttons on your
web pages, BUYERS CAN PAY YOU FOR PURCHASES WITH PAYPAL
INSTANTLY -- without leaving your site. Accepting
payments online has never been easier! (Pricing for this
feature is only a modest 1.9% on payments received, with
no flat fee.) Learn more about Web Accept by going to
our website:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/web/index-outside
Also, our Business Account users now will have NO LIMIT ON
CREDIT CARD FUNDS RECEIVED. Buyers who have reached their
PayPal $2,000 credit card spending limit can still charge
their card when sending a payment to Premier and
Business users.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
AUCTION MANAGEMENT TOOLS
Collect auction payments quickly and easily with INSTANT
PURCHASE FOR AUCTIONS. This feature lets buyers pay you
simply by clicking on a logo in your auction listing; this
generates a pop-up form where buyers can enter their PayPal
username and password to pay you without even having to
login to our website. Also new, our AUTOMATED PAYMENT
REQUEST creates online invoices that you can distribute to
your winning bidders. It's fast -- you can send out 100
invoices in just 10 minutes! Visit our website to learn
more about our new auction tools for Premier and Business
Account users: http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/auc/auction-business-tools-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
SEND PAYMENTS THROUGH BATCH PAY
Now pay hundreds -- even thousands -- of people all at
once with X.com’s new Batch Pay tool. If you run an
AFFILIATE PROGRAM, A COUPON/REBATE PROMOTION, OR A
"PAY-TO-SURF" COMPANY, you no longer have to depend on
expensive and slow check runs to pay your customers --
Batch Pay can do it for you. (Batch payment transactions
cost the lesser of 2% or $0.25 per payment, far below
the cost of printing and mailing a check.) For more
information on X.com's Batch Pay, go to:
http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/batch-outside.
And for those of you who participate in a "pay-to-surf"
or affiliate program, be sure to tell your administrator
you'd like to BE PAID WITH PAYPAL!
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
PREMIUM FUNCTIONALITY
In addition to all the features available on PayPal
personal accounts, Premier and Business users can take
advantage of these other special features and services:
· A DOWNLOADABLE TRANSACTION HISTORY available in
Quicken, QuickBooks, and comma-delimited text formats.
· Automatic sweep of your PayPal balance into your bank
account at the end of each day. (This feature is optional
and carries a modest 0.6% fee.)
· A 24-hour-a-day, 7-days-a-week exclusive customer service
hotline.
· Frequent special promotions, such as last month’s "Free
Listing Week."
· Automatic eligibility for X.com's AFFILIATE PROGRAM.
· Many Business Account users will be eligible to be
featured in our upcoming SHOPPING TAB, where over 2.5
million PayPal users will be able to make instant, online
purchases directly from you.
For more information on all the features vailable to Business
and Premier users, please visit our site:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/personal_vs_business-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
It’s fast and simple to upgrade your personal account in
order to take advantage of these premium features. Please keep
in mind that businesses using PayPal are required by our terms
of use to create a Business Account. To upgrade, just login to
your PayPal account and click on the "Upgrade Now" button. The
upgrade process only takes a couple of minutes, and you’ll be
able to use our new payment tools immediately.
We appreciate your choice to use X.com’s PayPal service to send
and receive money, and thanks for helping to make PayPal the #1
payment service on the Web!
posted on September 13, 2000 04:57:29 PM new
paypaldamon,
So far your posts seem to be a carbon copy of the one before it. I think paypal needs to figure out something to tell damon so he has something to say except pat phrases. I will not upgrade until paypal gives me a good reason to. How do they determine what is personal use and what is business use? There are lots of sellers out there selling used clothing as a business but there are also parents who just have way too many extra clothes their kids have outgrown. So far I don't see any inducements to upgrade. How about a little clarification please?
