kraftdinner
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posted on March 8, 2005 09:43:16 AM new
Linda, at least I was smart enough when I was younger to figure out that I couldn't financially afford a child, even though I wanted one. If I ask some of my friends with uncontrollable children, what conclusion they came to regarding ie: discipline, divorce, finances, etc., before they got married and had children, they look at me like I'm nuts, yet they're the ones all stressed out because they don't know how to handle their children. How stupid can you be?
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coincoach
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posted on March 8, 2005 09:47:20 AM new
I agree that spanking is more the result of a parent's frustration, anger or lack of control---not the child's behavior. Many, many parents raise wonderful children without benefit of spanking--including myself. In fact, in my personal experience, the wildest children come from families who use spanking. Spanking illustrates to children that you are willing to hurt those you love most, those who trust you and love you unconditionally. If that is the case, how do children who are spanked interact with others to whom they do not have loving feelings? Spanking is the easy way out for parents who cannot take the extra time to use disciplinary techniques which work, but take time, effort and patience. Aren't your children worth that?
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kraftdinner
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posted on March 8, 2005 09:49:34 AM new
Excellent posts, Coincoach!! 
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Linda_K
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posted on March 8, 2005 09:51:19 AM new
KD - I have never been against those who don't wish to have children from remaining childless. But that's not what I was referring to. When one has not had children and raised them they have no clue as to all that's involved. Not the same as 'babysitting' a child for a short period of time.
What I see happening today that is so different from when my children were born is that now the new parents aren't diciplining the children at all. Many are against swatting....which is fine IF their other method is still bringing the desired results.
That's NOT what we're seeing. We're seeing more and more out-of-control little ones. And many don't even take their own parents advice about what worked for them in different situations. They think the 'books' know better than experience. Books are great as a 'guide'....but they're no more than that. Listening to what has worked for others is one of the best way to go, imo. And that SuperNanny show that I spoke of before IS a good source of 'suggested' behavior modification learning. It's pretty much what more loving parents have been trying to tell their children about their grandchildren.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
[ edited by Linda_K on Mar 8, 2005 09:54 AM ]
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coincoach
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:12:11 AM new
Thanks, Kraftdinner. As you can see, I feel pretty stongly about this subject. I don't think you can blame any perceived bad behavior by today's children on the lack of spanking. Lack of discipline yes, but that means teaching your children how to behave and take responsibility for their actions. Spanking or lack of it has nothing to do with that issue.
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dblfugger9
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:18:22 AM new
Anybody know what percentage of children are on ridilin or similar drugs compared to years ago?
Maybe thats the answer, put them all on drugs.
::eyeroll::
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Bear1949
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:33:32 AM new
Point: crowfarm
So that raises your IQ to what? One?
A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones that need the advice."
- Bill Cosby
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Linda_K
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:37:29 AM new
dbl - I don't know...but it sure has appeared to be the leading suggestion offered to the parents of all these 'un-ruly' children. Drug them.... Not my idea of a solution. I believe the greater cause of their actions is lack of dicipline....rather than that all of a sudden all these children have suddenly aquired these medical issues.
And I know so many people who were spanked when they were young who have a very loving relationship with their parents who spanked them and believe, as adults, the parents were acting in their best interests.
This 'spanking will harm them for life', or 'cause them to be violent grown-ups' or cause them to 'feel unloved' theory is simple false.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
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crowfarm
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:38:36 AM new
linduh says, "When one has not had children and raised them they have no clue as to all that's involved. Not the same as 'babysitting' a child for a short period of time. ""
I asked , "why does giving birth make you a child rearing expert?
No answer.
And I don't get it's point....how does caring for children differ...if you're the "real" parent do you then have the right to abuse the child? That's what it is saying in the above statement.
Then it says,
"What I see happening today that is so different from when my children were born is that now the new parents aren't diciplining the children at all. Many are against swatting....which is fine IF their other method is still bringing the desired results.
That's NOT what we're seeing. We're seeing more and more out-of-control little ones. And many don't even take their own parents advice about what worked for them in different situations. They think the 'books' know better than experience. Books are great as a 'guide'....but they're no more than that. Listening to what has worked for others is one of the best way to go, imo. And that SuperNanny show that I spoke of before IS a good source of 'suggested' behavior modification learning. It's pretty much what more loving parents have been trying to tell their children about their grandchildren.""
My, my what a large crystal ball it thinks it has...... it knows SO many children.........
What has using a book or not using a book got to do with loosing control and spanking your child because you're not competent enough to use intelligent forms of discipline ?
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Helenjw
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:40:21 AM new
"We're seeing more and more out-of-control little ones"
I don't believe that you can justify that statement with any kind of objective data.
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Linda_K
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:43:17 AM new
hogwash - again.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
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crowfarm
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:43:23 AM new
Helen, Helen, Helen....the crystal ball thingy, remember ?
Maybe it's own children or grandchildren........
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Libra63
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:46:41 AM new
Speaking to crowfarm is like speaking to a brick wall.
_________________
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parklane64
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:47:11 AM new
Yet more puerile PC buzzard puke. Do what makes the liberals feel good, rather than what is most effective for quality results down the road.
A swat on the ass for paradigm adjustment is not violence, and anyone that argues that it is has their head up theirs.
__________
The Islamofascist fig-puckers are fighting to spread their culture and religion, and to destroy ours
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dblfugger9
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:48:10 AM new
Linda, Drug them.... Not my idea of a solution...
Mine either. I am sure some children have behavorial or true mental/emotional problems and it's a necessary intervention, but a great many are put on those drugs without any proof of what else is going on. Boys mostly, too. - btw, did you know now teenagers are snorting that sh** now with the same effects as cocaine? I heard that on the news the other night. It's like what's next?
kraft, I think you stated it rather eloquently though you did not mean to: the parents are out of control - OF THE KID. If a parent cannot have the upper hand with a child, you might as well forget about trying to talk to them. A kid has to understand 'no' sometimes.
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Linda_K
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:48:35 AM new
hogwash was directed at cf...
helen, all one has to do is ask a teacher. Their hands have been tied too in the classroom.
How many times has our own professor said one of the differences between private and public school is the teachers/administrators don't have to deal with the same discipline issues that public schools do - they can get rid of them.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
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crowfarm
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:54:51 AM new
linduh you "answers" are getting lamer and lamer......what is hogwash?
The act of giving birth makes you a child rearing expert ?
How about the father...gee, he doesn't give birth but maybe waiting at the hospital makes him a great parent.
""all one has to do is ask a teacher. Their hands have been tied too in the classroom.""
My sister is a teacher of children with assorted problems....has a well behaved classroom and has never laid a hand on any of them.
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Libra63
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posted on March 8, 2005 10:57:13 AM new
why does giving birth make you a child rearing expert? Great quote from a womenless child.
What gives you crowfarm knowledge about raising children and if you know your an expert why didn't you have any.
_________________
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crowfarm
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posted on March 8, 2005 11:00:03 AM new
HahahahahA Come on everybody this is hilarious....libra's
"Great quote from a womenless child. """"
ALLL children should have women !!!!!!! We demand it!
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crowfarm
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posted on March 8, 2005 11:13:16 AM new
Seriously, libra you ask"What gives you crowfarm knowledge about raising children and if you know your an expert why didn't you have any."
Well ,I answered that several posts back several times but please don't wear yourself out looking ....you'll never get it anyway.
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Linda_K
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posted on March 8, 2005 11:15:23 AM new
dbl - did you know now teenagers are snorting that sh** now with the same effects as cocaine?
No, I hadn't heard that.  They just feel so invincible at that age and that nothing they experiment with will harm them.
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logansdad
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posted on March 8, 2005 11:30:47 AM new
Logansdad just how many Christian Schools did you go to?
3 - two different Catholic Grammar schools because my family moved and a Catholic high school.
Never was a child spanked at school for misbehaving. There were other forms of discipline used - standing in corners, detention, work details (high school), suspension and expulsion.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
----------------------------------
Bush will fix Social Security just like he has fixed Osama Bin Laden and Iraq. Bush can't be trusted to run this country and you want to trust him with your retirement?
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logansdad
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posted on March 8, 2005 11:31:52 AM new
Fenix,
Interesting how you mentioned domestic violence in comparison with spanking a child.
Child learn behavior from their parents. Do you think they learn that it is OK to spank/hit/punch because their parents used these methods on them when they are a child?
If so, it is possible for children that were abused via the methods of above to use these methods during arguments with their spouses when they are married.
I think the majority of us were spanked when we were younger. The problem developed in the PC era of the 90's when you had some people believing spanking was a form of child abuse. What one person thinks is discipline another may think it is child abuse. A line has to be drawn to differentiate the two.
I disagree that you have to be a parent in order to know how to raise a child. There are single people that work in day care centers that need to know how to handle kids.
[ edited by logansdad on Mar 8, 2005 11:42 AM ]
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Linda_K
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posted on March 8, 2005 11:56:34 AM new
When I attended Catholic grade schools....the nuns often 'rapped' the students on their knuckles with a ruler. And the boys who really acted out got swats with a paddle from the Priests.
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So logansdad you appear to see no difference at all between a parent raising a child and one who 'babysits' them. But there IS a tremendous difference whether you can understand it or not.
Are you really a parent?
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Four More Years....YES!!!
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Bear1949
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posted on March 8, 2005 12:35:19 PM new
I don't believe that you can justify that statement with any kind of objective data.
Take off your rose colored glasses and read the papers. Every day you see stories of out of control kids. And what about the killer teens, you can't tell me they wouldn't have benefited from a swat to get their attention.
So your solution is to fill them with Ritalin?
A word to the wise ain't necessary, it's the stupid ones that need the advice."
- Bill Cosby
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coincoach
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posted on March 8, 2005 12:47:50 PM new
Someone who can be described as a "killer teen" has a lot more problems than a swat can cure. Perhaps these "killer teens" had parents who swatted them every day, thus they learned at the hands of their parents that violence is the way to go. Spanking is a simplistic answer. You need to love and respect your children, not bully them. You can be a disciplinarian without hitting. If your kid knows that he will consistently bear the consequences of his/her bad behavior--not by hitting but losing priveleges, etc--you are teaching them to obey the rules of the house in a loving and respectful manner.
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Libra63
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posted on March 8, 2005 12:52:16 PM new
Yes Bear that is what is happening to the world we are living in now. I wonder what the long term effects Ritalin will have on a child. It's to bad that children can't be under control. What I find is that even teachers can suggest Ritalin because they can't control that child. Well it goes back to the parent but of course both parents are working so that they can have the enormous house, boat, fancy car but can't control their child. That is the problem. The parents have no time with that child to give him proper discipline. the teacher is their to teach not discipline a child.
Parents are responsible for their childs actions.
Get over it crowfarm. Because you might have a child for a day or so tell me they don't get on your nerves and if you say they don't you are a liar.
_________________
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Helenjw
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posted on March 8, 2005 12:53:33 PM new
Bear, Parents who "swat" their children only teach their children to attempt to control others with physical abuse. It's more likely that those children that you read about did receive swats from their parents.
[ edited by Helenjw on Mar 8, 2005 12:56 PM ]
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crowfarm
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posted on March 8, 2005 12:58:30 PM new
""The act of giving birth makes you a child rearing expert ?
How about the father...gee, he doesn't give birth but maybe waiting at the hospital makes him a great parent. ""'
So Libra, You say that's it's OK to spank a child because it gets on your nerves ? Can't control your nerves so you take it out on the child?
AND you say,"Well it goes back to the parent but of course both parents are working so that they can have the enormous house, boat, fancy car but can't control their child. That is the problem. The parents have no time with that child to give him ""
Well, you're just plain stupid if you don't know about all the parents who are working two jobs and long hours just to pay for groceries, heat, gas, property taxes, and a house for their children.
YOUR world, lala, isn't the ONLY world.
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Helenjw
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posted on March 8, 2005 01:14:08 PM new
"Well it goes back to the parent but of course both parents are working so that they can have the enormous house, boat, fancy car but can't control their child. That is the problem. The parents have no time with that child to give him proper discipline. the teacher is their to teach not discipline a child."
Both parents work for many reasons other than acquiring yachts and mansions. Many parents work just to keep afloat financially. And I don't think that it's a matter of insufficient time to discipline children but rather lack of parenting skills that may create problems. One good solution to this kind of ignorance would be to make psychology and child psychology a prerequisite for high school graduation.
Parents can also learn from good teachers who are successful in using noncoersive modes of punishment. They can provide parents with alternatives to physical punishment.
[ edited by Helenjw on Mar 8, 2005 01:37 PM ]
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