posted on September 4, 2000 11:18:21 AM
"One more reason not to put your shipping and handling in your starting price is becuase you will lose sales."
That is the point that I am trying to make. If you include your real costs in your starting bid, instead of burying them somewhere in your TOS as 'handling' charges, and you are not competitive, then ... you are simply not competitive You either need to rethink what you feel the market will allow you to get (including your costs to package it) and lower your starting bid accordingly, or find another way to sell it.
Sellers - if you are upfront about the "real cost" of your item, you'll get more bidders. I don't think too many buyers get upset about adding the shipping costs (the actual costs, that is) to their winning bids - that is easy to verify when they get the item and they can then decide if they want to do more biz with the seller. It's all the other 'costs of doing business' that some sellers tack on at the end that causes so much grief ...
posted on September 4, 2000 11:27:21 AM
Ah yes, but what determines
the "real cost" of your item
Are you saying the actual cost of the item, or the actual cost of staying in business?
Obviously if we sold only based on what we paid for an item, we would soon go broke.
I guess I am a rarer type of bidder. When I bid on an item, I take the actual price of the item as its worth. The shipping or handling of it is the price I pay to get the item to me, and I do not feel it is part of the item's "value" .
Much like when I go to the mall. I look at the price of items, not the price plus the gas and time it took me to get it.
posted on September 4, 2000 11:39:08 AM
"Much like when I go to the mall. I look at the price of items, not the price plus the gas and time it took me to get it."
Good analogy. Do you also add in the various taxes when you price these items? How would you feel if you went to the mall to buy a washing machine, and the price tag read "$379.00" in bold, large type (the 'starting bid", and somewhere lower down in small type (the 'TOS') it read "plus the cost of the box it came in, the cost we incurred to get it from the warehouse to our showroom, the cost to put it back in the box, the cost to take it from our showroom to the loading dock, the cost of our shipper to wait while you drive in to pick it up, the cost for our shipper to help you get it into your vehicle, and additional costs as requied to satisfy our shareholders". Would you still buy it?
That's my point - stop trying to hide the buyer's laid down cost with all this nonsense about your handling charges. Those are costs that the seller incurs to do biz - if the seller wants to pass them on to the buyer, then do it. But, don't try to be coy about it
posted on September 4, 2000 11:39:48 AM
Before I started selling, I was a fairly regular buyer. I just can't understand people who say they NEVER bid on auctions with a handling fee...any more than I can understand folks who think it's just fine to add a $10 "handling" charge onto a $5 item price as long as that charge is stated in the TOS.
If I buy a delicate breakable item (and I have bought several), I expect that it will be packed appropriately to arrive in good condition. Having sold several of these myself, I =know= what it costs in materials to do this right, and I would not refuse to bid on such an item with a modest handling charge, simply because the seller added that amount. How silly, if otherwise the item is priced right and the seller's feedback is good, and you really want it, and you can't find it locally.
OTOH, I would never bid on an item with an outrageous handling fee, even if the combined total was more or less in the ballpark for that item purchased by itself locally. Why? Because it only encourages the seller to continue gouging.
I do look at these costs separately, as well as together. If the shipping and handling charge isn't way out of line, and the total price is right, I'll buy. But if the price is way cheap and the seller is clearly making it up with a handling charge, I won't participate in that little scam even if the total is more or less "right."
Recently, I have had to rethink handling charges as a seller. So far, I have not dealt too often with truly breakable, expensive-to-package items, and I've also got a fairly large stash of good packing material to work with that is/was essentially free. But I'm going through that stash at an amazing rate, and when it's gone I'll have real, hard cash spending reqirements to replenish it. And then there is the FVF to consider. If I include the cost of packaging in the opening bid, then I pay for it in my eBay fees, and I just don't think I want to do that. So I may start charging a modest packing fee for breakables (but not clothing, which I send via Priority Mail and thus pay little or nothing to pack). I would hope buyers understand why this is necessary, and in fact will explain it in my TOS if it becomes necessary.
posted on September 4, 2000 12:13:20 PM
Say what??? Picking a fight? Care to explain that? I am simply stating my POV --- just like everyone else here, and I am not specifically referencing you or your auctions - I don't even know what you sell
posted on September 4, 2000 12:17:02 PM
Oh I didnt know sellers were supose to worry about the other seller makeing one more sales then me cause he was a dollar cheaper.
I just figured if I had a plan and a goal and looked to myself took care of the buyer who did buy from me make each happy with there dealings with me .
and my sales were steady and I sell my inventory I invested in all would be well with my world and I would be happy too.
I figured that if I spend more time looking and buying a high quility item. that I might have to start the bidding bit higher my buyers would notice this and it will reflect over time in higher over all bid prices for quality in goods and shipping.
that I might make more over the other buyers with my one item then he made in his 1 or two extra sales.
I didnt know the fact that buyers might see this reflected in my feed back and aditude get more of these sales over time.
I am so lost , I thought if I felt good about every deal and was Happy and haveing fun in what I do and buyer were happy with me.
that was what its all about.
I will gladly work with every winner of one or more of my auction. on shipping, handle, insurnce and any other aspect of each deal within reason.
if they bid on many auctions from me I might even offer free shiping free insurance ,or a discount on this sales and close sales early
so that all this is done the sametime.
I dont charge handleing on my sales my prices are some time a bit higher then the other guy but if sellers wants personal service and there request are within reason .
posted on September 4, 2000 12:32:06 PM
RB
I like to discuss real issues, not what ifs and maybes.
You stated you absolutely would not bid on auctons with handling fees in the TOS.
As a buyer (200+ items since the beginning of April this year), anything over $00.00 for handling is too much. If a TOS even suggests that there is a handling charge, I avoid the auction completely ...
So what is your point here?
Are you arguing about hidden handling charges, handling charges stated in the TOS or the "actual cost" of an item or how much **gasp** profit a seller makes?
When you stated If you include your real costs in your starting bid
you are saying to include the handling charges in the starting bid. Why are you willing to pay handling charges included in a starting bid but not on a TOS? What is a bidder's huge mental block with a stated handling charge, can you explain it to us?
posted on September 4, 2000 01:40:06 PM
Hanna Andersson only charged me a flat $5.95 shipping to mail 6 items via priority. They absorbed the difference. I will order from them again.
Lands End charged $4.95 to ship several items. I will shop Lands End again.
Barnes & Noble shipped one book out of 3 that I ordered. They charged full shipping on each book plus a handling charge even though it was their fault they did not have book in stock. I don't shop B&N anymore.
You have to consider whether or not you want repeat business. Sellers that charge $5.00 shipping but the item arrives in a first class bubble mailer with $1.50 postage don't get my business again. Build the handling fee into your bid price.
posted on September 4, 2000 01:40:31 PM
Well, this just happened to me....
I saw a good pair of lamps on Ebay,so I Emailed the seller to ask shipping charges before I bid (auction page said "fixed shipping"
Seller Emails back "25.00"
I'm OK with that, So I bid $800.00 with 10 seconds remaining.
Proxy bidding gives them to Me at $270.00(reserve was $199.00)
I Email them back for a total, and they hit me with $95.00 SH&I.
OOOUUUCCHHHHH!!!!
Retaining composure, and still believing that I am not the fatted lamb, I email back saying that I am "confused" as to the correct shipping amount and reminding them that they first told Me $25.00.
Seller Emails back "pay 95.00 shipping now or I will sell to the second bidder"
I quickly got one of them on the phone, hoping to calm things down.
I talked to one half(partnership)mostly agreeably, while the other yelled in the background.
We finally settled on $42.00 SH&I and I paypaled them immediately.
Lamps arrived UPS ground, not double boxed and no insurance. That these porcelain and ormolu bronze lamps did not break in transit, is a wonder.
I did not neg them,but I have to wonder how many times this has happened to other buyers.
I have only once charged a packing fee, and this was for a large mirror, and this was clearly stated on the auction page.
As a rule, I eat the handling, or rather, increase my reserve or minimum bid.
[ edited by labelleepoque on Sep 5, 2000 09:56 AM ]
posted on September 4, 2000 02:09:07 PM
barrelracer ... you must be having a bad day
My 'point' in that statement of mine that you quote wasn't really a "point". It was, and still is, simply an answer to the question posed by the original poster, which is "how much is too much?"
As far as an explanation, that's what I was trying to do with my washing machine analogy. Let me try it this way ... when I browse through the listings of stuff I am interested in, I look at the starting (and high) bid amounts. If it looks reasonable, I open the listing and have a look. I have no problem with the shipping costs as I pretty well know how much they will be - I can make a mental addition in my mind to figure out what my landed cost will be, compare that to what I am willing to pay, and decide whether or not I should have a more detailed look. If the listing states handling is extra, then I won't bid. In effect, the bid price (plus the shipping, that I can guess fairly accurately) that prompted me to open the listing is NOT the price I will actually pay. It's more like a come on.
I am sincerely not trying to be obtuse here. I just believe that the costs of doing business should not be shown as an extra. If we start going down that road, than it would be just as fair for me to deduct the cost of an envelope and a stamp to mail a payment to you.
I don't know if this explantion of why >I< have a problem with additional fees for handling works for you, or even anyone else, but, it does work for me.
posted on September 4, 2000 02:17:23 PM
RB~ there are barebones sites that do EXACTLY that. Bricks & mortar & etail. The fact that they are forthcoming about their *after*costs is fine. I have choices. When ordering across country via usps or UPS, I don't have quite as many choices.
As a buyer I HATE HANDLING CHARGES! Please build it into your start bid. Please charge me ACTUAL shipping( buy a scale for God's sake!). Not rounded up shipping after you've packed a 2nd hand box, with 2nd hand bubble or greasy newspaper (which adds to weight total I have to pay)! I hate this crap and it really annoys me.
As a SELLER, I ALWAYS state a specific charge in the sale ad.(USUALLY I ROUND DOWN to encourage BIDS!) I don't have TOS, pay me in 2 weeks, fine, pay me in three weeks you get an email reminder, pay me after 30 days, I file final value fees. But, I am a human being, send me a scan of your payment which was lost by usps, or some other neanderthal delivery venue, then I am cool. Sooner or later if you pay me I am happy. I don't sell easy to find stuff and most of my customers payments are received within 2 weeks. WHEN I RECEIVE YOUR PAYMENT I DRIVE TO THE PO(2 MILES) OR UPS (20 MINUTES AWAY) TO SEND YOUR ITEM. YOU GET IT LICKETY SPLIT!I ALSO LEAVE POSITIVE FB FOR THE FACT THAT YOU PAID ME,STATES ALSO WHEN YOUR ITEM SHIPPED. AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH !A THANK YOU!
BE NICE TO ME! I will come back & eat out of your HAND!( and buy your MERCH)
vitaminshoppe.com is a GREAT example of this! I order ALOT of supplements & vitamins. Vitaminshoppe.com is one of the consistent best buys around (they also carry atkins bars CHEAP). I always order UPS shipping, total order cost, REGARDLESS of size is 4.95. If something is backordered, they don't charge you every time they ship. Go figure, they actually think it is their fault something isn't in stock/ available. They send your order, shipping, delivery updates, via email. HOW MANY OF YOU DO THAT? (I do!)
Order from vitaminshoppe.com and I guarantee that they will make it SO EASY for you to do business with them that you will go back AGAIN and AGAIN! I have spent somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 dollars with them so far this year. They carry food supps, vitamins, all atkins product (at a discount). I am an atkins fan...having lost 45 pounds last year & counting. I took this summer off to play, socialize & be bad and gained 2 pounds. Back to atkins when the social offerings aren't so great in the fall!
Good luck to you all, but I REALLY do pass by auctions with handling charges.
posted on September 4, 2000 03:47:30 PM
RB-
The washing machine analogy isn't a good one. The last time I bought a washer, there was a $35 delivery charge. I doubt it cost the store $35 to load up that washer and drive three miles to my house. But I paid it. Every store I checked charged the same thing. The one I bought from had the lowest overall price.
I buy in real life, online and at online auction based on overall price. Bottom line, that's it. Add it up and the total's what matters.
Yes, some sellers do gouge, putting a $10 handling charge on a $5 item that cost $1 to mail. If the item is common and I can find it elsewhere for a better price, I'll pass.
If the item is something I really, really want and have been searching for forever, and this is the only one available, I'll probably pay the handling charge.
Still other handling charges are called for...
I expect to pay big bucks to have a large ceramic piece by Sergio Bustamante shipped to my door. Those things are fragile and expensive and need to be packed and crated properly.
I'd be darned po'd to have a $1600 piece arrive in pieces.
posted on September 4, 2000 04:05:04 PM
Vargas! DING DING I am ringing your CHIMES. Hello what is the price TOLERANCE? You fugure it out......................
I find it highly ironic that you want all sellers to include all our costs and handling fees in our opening bid, so we can pay higher listing and final value fees,
and I find you posted this on the bashing ebay thread
On a positive note though, out of the 6 auctions they canceled last week, 4 of them have been completed 'off eBay' with zero listing and selling fees ... Alert bidders, I suspect, writing my info down before the VeRo bandits did their thing ...
posted on September 4, 2000 04:57:51 PM
OK - looks like I am not using the right words today
I agree with you that there are costs involved in packaging a fragile item. I agree that there are costs involved in taking it to the post office. I agree that there are a myriad of other costs involved in handling an item. And, I agree that these costs should be covered by the buyer.
So far, I agree on everything
I BELIEVE that these costs are similar for manufacturers who sell through a retail outlet, although NORMALLY, they don't show as an extra - they are included in the price you pay at the register. Makes it, for me at least, a little easier to accept.
I ASSUME that your handling costs are the same for someone else selling the same item as you on eBay. As a matter of fact, they are probably the same for everyone selling that same item on eBay.
So, apart from the potential that your item may not get a look if you include these costs in your starting bid, but rather 'hide' them in your TOS, I cannot see why you wouldn't include them. If, by including them, you feel you cannot be competitive, then you probably aren't. If, by not including them in your starting bid, hoping that doing it this way more bidders will have a look, is this not like the 'fine print' on a contract?
Who, honestly now, likes the fine print on a contract?
How about the cost of gasoline these days? We all know there is a bunch of taxes added into the price at the pump, and we all pay them, albeit reluctantly. Would we be more reluctant to pay $3.00 for a gallon of gas (Canadian) if the price shown on the station's sign said "$1.50 per gallon plus taxes and other graft" which would brings it up to $3.00? That would serve as a reminder to us that we are overtaxed and unhappy about it. It has nothing to do with the poor guy pumping the gas (the eBay seller), but he's the guy we rant to. It makes for an unhappy customer, same as reminding me that I have to pay for your cardboard box and trip to the post office over and above the price of the item. I prefer not to be reminded of this ... that's all.
PS - barrelracer --- you're getting a little too anal now fyi, ALL of the auctions canceled by eBay included this statment in the listing "SHIPPING IS INCLUDED IN YOUR BID". In other words, bidders from Canada and the USA did not have to add ANYTHING to their final bid to arrive at their laid down cost. I am (was!) confident that my starting bid was legit and I was happy with it ...
posted on September 4, 2000 05:12:53 PM
RB
You are right. You are not using the right words today.
You can not have a discussion on handling charges without including washing machines and gas prices.
I thought I could finally find out why some bidders absolutely refuse to bid on an auction with the dreaded words "handling fee" but know handling fees are probably added to other starting bids.
posted on September 4, 2000 05:32:37 PM
"DING DING I am ringing your CHIMES. Hello what is the price TOLERANCE? You fugure it out......................"
>>"I charge a handling fee but don't state it. I simply add it to my starting bid and have had no problems."<<
This comment got me thinking. Wether you do it the way you stated, or it is stated in the auction description "postage + handling" = $X.XX or however you want to word it. You would in essence be paying the same. At least a savvy buyer would take this into account and bid accordingly.
If I want to pay $20 for an item and there is a $5.00 shipping and handling fee, then I would bid $15. If the minimum bid is more than $15, then I would go to the next auction. I guess it would depend on if the item is a bargain regardless of handling, shipping, etc...
Here's where the problem is:
If the auction says one thing and the EOA says another.
I bid on an auction once that (clearly) stated that shipping would be $1.50. I bid accordingly. I was sent an EOA email that stated shipping would be $4.50.
I pointed out to the seller that all of her auctions said that shipping would be $1.50 and that is why I bid on the auction in the first place. She agreed to only charge me $1.50 for shipping. The item was packed well and everyone was happy.
Sellers should not change their terms after the auction has ended. Unless it is in the buyers favor.
posted on September 5, 2000 12:01:05 AM
RB, WRONG!! The handling fee is the cost YOU as a BUYER incur for doing business. Sellers bend over backwards to accomodate their customers, but that does NOT mean that the buyers set the terms of the auction. Please don't tell me how to run my business. If you don't like the terms, don't bid. Take your repeat business elsewhere.
BTW, if you are the same person selling copyright-infringing goods after the auctions were cancelled, what you are doing is illegal. Somewhat more serious than adding a handling fee to an auction.
posted on September 5, 2000 03:36:52 AM
Well, I hate to say this, but I've been OVERCHARGED (& ripped off) so many times for excessive shipping/handling, that I've UPPED MINE.
Complaints to sellers haven't helped. Refusing to leave feedback hasn't helped.
I figure, if you can't beat them, join them!
posted on September 5, 2000 04:00:06 AM
twinsoft ...
> RB, WRONG!! The handling fee is the cost YOU as a BUYER incur for doing business.
That, my friend, goes against every marketing principle I have ever heard or read about, especially considering the buyer is the 'customer'.
> buyers set the terms of the auction.
No argument here ...
> Please don't tell me how to run my business.
I'm not - I was merely offering my answer to the posters question. And, don't you tell me how to bid and buy either ... OK?
> you don't like the terms, don't bid.
I don't - that is all I have been trying to say ...
> Take your repeat business elsewhere.
?? - I have never dealt with you
> BTW, if you are the same person selling copyright-infringing goods after the auctions were cancelled, what you are doing is illegal.
Not this time, but I have been 'accused' of this before. My challenge is still out there: I am still waiting for someone (anyone!) to prove that the tapes I listed some time ago and that were subsequently canceled by eBay were illegal. I have even offered this challenge to eBay. In fact, I have WRITTEN authorization on the copyright holder's letterhead (not some faked email) that I had their 100% blessing to sell that item. Believe me when I say I KNOW what is legal and what isn't iin my hobby - I've been doing this for over 16 years and I have had hundreds of conversations with copyright lawyers. Real lawyers, not quasi-lawyers like you.
I wonder how you react to the accusations you get about some of that 'grey area' software you sell on eBay? You must get them from time-to-time.
But, enough is enough. If you want to flame me or insult me for doing what I do best, then please, back it up with facts, not what you may have heard.
btw, my request to eBay to cancel my account has finally been acknowledged. Problem is, they have also prevented me from requesting credits for the two deadbeats who burned me for listing and selling fees Bottom line to you is that "you won't have me to kick around anymore" ...
Good luck with your auctions and may you prosper. Later, eh ...
[ edited by RB on Sep 5, 2000 04:01 AM ]
[ edited by RB on Sep 5, 2000 04:04 AM ]
posted on September 5, 2000 04:39:22 AMRB, I apologize if I came down too hard on you. But I have no sympathy for your predicament.
I never said buyers set the terms of the auction. Either you misread my post or are misquoting it.
Your view of "handling costs" is completely erroneous. A handling fee is just that: a fee for handling. It is not a COST, it is a FEE. And when a buyer plainly states their fee along with other terms for sale, you call that "hiding" the fee? Oh, puh-leeze! Gee, try reading the item description before bidding.
I have had items VeROed at eBay. Flea market CDs, mostly. And when that happens, PowerSeller support sends me emails and even telephones asking if I need help filling out the form that will allow me to continue offering the product. If your item was VeROed, all you need to do is sign an affidavit stating you have a right to sell the product.
eBay has absolutely no say in whether you may sell your VeROed item or not. If eBay receives a complaint in the form of an affidavit, they are required by law to end your auction. You have the option to present eBay with a letter stating you have a right to sell the item. Then eBay will allow you to sell it. So there is nothing unfair about it. You are on the exact same footing as the VeRO or copyright owner. eBay's obligations are clearly spelled out in the DCMA.
I am not a lawyer or a pseudo-lawyer but I do have some understanding of how VeRO works, mostly from dealing with people bootlegging my software and stealing my ads and graphics at eBay. I'm not impressed by your claims of hundreds of discussions with copyright lawyers because you have no understanding at all of how copyright law works, or VeRO or the DCMA. Instead, you choose to loudly play the role of victim and blame eBay for something over which they have absolutely no control.
Among other things, I sell children's software. That particular category is overrun with copyright-infringing, homemade CDs. Sellers with no talent or brains simply copy warez onto homemade discs and sell them by the ton. eBay does nothing to stop it.
posted on September 5, 2000 05:15:46 AM
twinsoft ... thanks, I think!
I found out that it wasn't VeRo who has had my auctions canceled, but rather eBay acting on an email from some other member. I found this out quite by accident when a person contacted me and asked my why a copyright holder (the VeRo supporters) would have an auction canceled for something I had every right to sell.
I have already issued a public apology to VeRo via eBay, and I offer it here as well.
However, the problem still exists, only worse. EBay will 'convict' a seller based purely on an email from a disgruntled member. I had beliefs that someone was interfering with my auctions (see some of my previous threads here) and it looks like I was correct. Unfortunately, because eBay's 'investigation' does not involve the accused (they follow the 'guilty until proven innocent' philosophy), it does not matter how many times I relist my item - if someone tells eBay it is not legit (zero proof required), they cancel it and once again I am embarassed in the eyes of my peers. I could even rent a scanner, scan the letter I have and include it with the auction listing. I believe it still wouldn't make a difference.
I am sure that you go through this a lot with your software stuff, and in spite of what I may have said to you previously (in the heat of the discussion!), I do sincerely wish you every success with your business. Based on your feedback, you seem to be doing it right
posted on September 5, 2000 06:48:56 AM
Maybe some of the misunderstanding is what each of us perceive a handling cahrge to be.
Bidders see it in a TOS (and my arguements about handling fees are always for the "stated ones" .Handling fees tacked on after the end or changed are a comepletely different matter, and I dispise that practice too. )
Bidders see it as an "extra charge " almost like the seller is making " a little extra "
They would rather have it in the opening bid.
(Like "if I don't see it than it is not there " )
Having my small (50 cent) handling fee is my way of recovering the bubble wrap, and time spent shipping the order. Yes, time is money. Would you want to always do something for no pay at your job?
Now before everyone jumps in and says "that should all be in the opening bid" think of this.
The handling fee is a way to "recover" money, not make money. (to me) IF I put that money into the opening bid, then I will have to pay listing fees, final value fees, and income tax on that part of the opening price where I am trying to recover part of the cost of doing business. Maybe even state sales tax too.
This in no way covers all handling fees or arguements. It does not cover that $10.00 fee for a $2 ship. But that is why I feel the bidders that say they never bid on an auction with a stated handling charge are being a little short sighted.
Bidders should take in all aspects of a person's auction listing, including price, TOS and feedback.
posted on September 5, 2000 11:17:13 AMeBay has absolutely no say in whether you may sell your VeROed item or not. If eBay receives a complaint in the form of an affidavit, they are required by law to end your auction
Not so.
What the law does say, in effect, is that if they cancel the auction, they have avoided any potential liability.
posted on September 5, 2000 11:26:23 AM
>>"What the law does say, in effect, is that if they cancel the auction, they have avoided any potential liability."<<
We may not like it and it may not always be fair but it is a sound decision on their part to end the auction causing the conflict. If I was running the site and I thought something that a member posted may cause me liability, I would do the same.
You either need to rethink what you feel the market will allow you to get (including your costs to package it) and lower your starting bid accordingly, or find another way to sell it.
, and somewhere lower down in small type (the 'TOS') it read "plus the cost of the box it came in, the cost we incurred to get it from the warehouse to our showroom, the cost to put it back in the box, the cost to take it from our showroom to the loading dock, the cost of our shipper to wait while you drive in to pick it up, the cost for our shipper to help you get it into your vehicle, and additional costs as requied to satisfy our shareholders". Would you still buy it?
