posted on March 31, 2005 07:26:55 AM new
from Fox news
Family confirms 41-year-old passed away in hospice; parents were denied access to daughter's bedside in final hours
I sure hope this isn't true, but if it is Michael Schiavo should be ashamed of himself. I will bet he is at the church getting married today to make his illigimate family legal.
I don't know what I would do if this would happen to me but I will now fight for the living wills and I hope that everyone gets one. We never know when our time is up but whenever it is we need to protect our rights and not let strangers dictate how we live or die. Make it your responsibility to get one today. Do you want this to happen to your son or daughter?
posted on March 31, 2005 07:43:17 AM new
It's my opinion that more consideration should have been given to the parents of Terri Schiavo who are so emotionally involved that they could not accept the truth about their daughter's condition.
There is no reason that Michael should be ashamed of himself.
posted on March 31, 2005 08:01:01 AM new
Well Helen. Do you have no regard for Marriage? Remember in Sickness and in Health. Maybe you think that it is all right that his wife is in a comatose state it is alright to have a girlfriend and 2 children.
This will follow that family (Michael Schiavo) the rest of their lives. He could have made it much pleasanter for both sides. Now I understand that he wants her berried in Pennsylvania, away from her family. JMO
_________________
posted on March 31, 2005 08:23:17 AM new
Actually Libra - the parents were not even at the hospice. They were at home. It was the brother and sister. This is one of those situations where people need to take responsibility for their actions. They have dragged Michael thru the dirt and publicly called him a murder numerous times even making the claim to courts. Why in the world would they then expect him to have any consideration for them?
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Mar 31, 2005 08:25 AM ]
posted on March 31, 2005 08:32:41 AM new
Isn't a brother and sister family? He doesn't have to do anything I guess, but I sure hope that if that happened to my daughter I wouldn't be shut out like that. I can't imagine being parents and having this happen. The love between a mother and daughter is something that can never be taken away even if there is a problem as it it always there.
Is there a reason why he wouldn't cooperate with the family? Do you know anything more?
Is there a reason why he has a girlfriend and 2 children? Wasn't he already in a marriage? Why didn't he get a divorce? I know that it is against the catholic religion but isn't living with someone and having children against the catholic religion? There are to many unanswered questions. I know we will never know the whole story as Michael Schiavo never talks it is only through the attorneys which seems very cold to me. Maybe if he would say something it would be different. I might have a different opinion.
posted on March 31, 2005 08:44:43 AM new
Libra - you clearly bolded Parents and final hours - I pointed out that that that was incorrect. Her brother and sister were with her up until 10 minutes before she passed.
As for why he didn't get a divorce. I know that this concept is very difficult for you to wrap your brain around but he fought to fulfill her wishes. He believed that she did not want to be kept alive in this state and sacrificed everything to carry that out. He has been turned into a monster by the media. It would have been so much easier to simply hand over control and wash his hands of everything but instead he was dragged thru the muck as he worked to make sure that her expressed desire was carried out. Sure turning her over to her parents would be an easier thing to do but isn't the true sign of devotion fighting to fulfill his wifes wishes even when that fight is against his own best interest?
As for not talking to the media. He does not owe anyone an explaination. His responsibility was to deal with the doctors and the courts. And he has spoken Libra - he has stated in the few interviews he has done that this was her wish and was fighting to see that it was carried out. Just because he does not run to every mic he sees does not mean that he has not made an attempt to explain his motivation.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Mar 31, 2005 08:45 AM ]
posted on March 31, 2005 08:55:58 AM new
I don't know.
First was he, Michael Schiavo a Catholic himself? If so, yes, his living with his girlfriend was a definate wrong, according to the Catholic Church.
I had to wonder too, I thought this when they brought up the morphine, at the same time a doctor on TV 'explained' the 'death process' when a feeding tube is removed. He said that 'natural painkillers' would kick in. Ok, then if this was a 'peaceful and painless' death process WHY was she given morphine?
If the money was all gone, then why not give custody to the parents, and he could truley move on with his own family. There seems to be too many unanswered questions, and that is why congress and the judicial system were involved. IMHO
posted on March 31, 2005 09:13:17 AM new
Near - Morphine is also used to regulate the breathing. It's more of a panacea for the family that for the patient. In final stages the breathing gets irregular, slows down dramatically then suddenly speeds up, slows down again, etc so it can be very unnerving for those around the patient. A side effect of the morphine is that it steadies the breathing pattern and helps to avoid those rapid changing cycles. (This was actually explained by a couple different doctors but for some reason it seems their interviews were only aired in the middle of the night).
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 31, 2005 09:54:20 AM newIt's more of a panacea for the family that for the patient
fenix, they dont dispense hospice patients morphine for the family's sake. - Get real! You can choose to believe that it "regulates" breathing, but what it does is it "depresses" the respiratory system and they use it as an assistance tool to helping the body in shutting down. Supposedly without it being "painful" for the patient. But if you read any medical science on it, you'd have to have the necessary receptors working in your brain for that to happen in the first place.
posted on March 31, 2005 10:17:58 AM new
Hospices routinely dispense morphine to patients for the family's sake. Hospice care is not only for the patient, but for the family. They exist to not only help the patient through this transition, but also the family, with the least amount of physical and emotional pain. Small amounts of morphine (Terri received only 2 5mg suppositories) are used to modulate breathing and allow for more regular breathing.
posted on March 31, 2005 10:49:48 AM new
::fenix, they dont dispense hospice patients morphine for the family's sake. - Get real!::
You are right of course. I made it up and three doctors that were interviewed at different times over the past two weeks by Fox News blatantly lied just to back up the lie that they knew I would tell sometime in the future.
Again - where is that eye roll smilie when you need it.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 31, 2005 11:03:05 AM new
Yes coincoach, hospice is concerned about the family members. But in the most ideal situation they also get to talk to the patients themselves and get a clear understanding of what "they want" at the end of their life and they are very much focused on fulfilling those wishes to the best of their abilities.
oh more symantics: "modulates"
No. It "depresses", shuts down, aides in hastening the functionnality of the respiratory system of an already injured and struggling body that is now rushing around trying to ping nerves and pumping up endorphines to to combat and survive. That's what the body does in defense. And that is what opiates are given for at the time of death.
Although it may appease the family in the process, I dont believe ethically or legally, they could ever say that's why they give it to the patient.
posted on March 31, 2005 11:05:03 AM new
fenix, i didnt say you lied so stop putting words in my mouth. I said get real because I dont buy that explanation just because you choose to believe it.
And if you heard doctors on fox news saying that, I bet some medical boards will be looking in their practice.
Hospice walks a real fine with that. They have for years, and they know it.
posted on March 31, 2005 11:14:45 AM new
::I dont believe ethically or legally, they could ever say that's why they give it to the patient.::
You should probably contact Fox News then about those unethical doctors they insist on interviewing in the late night hours. Three different ones and they all said the same thing. Someone should investigate this.
If all they wanted to do was speed up the death process they would simply increase the doage, instead they use very low dosages that basically serve simply to regulate.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on March 31, 2005 11:28:54 AM new
Unless a nurse comes forward we will never know what the dose was. I was searching and there is no definitive answer. Some websites say a morphine drip another
says 2-4 mg.
May she rest in peace, but I have a feeling this isn't over with. I do feel bad for both families of which now he can make that other family legal. I hope we all can take a lesson from this and sign our living wills.
posted on March 31, 2005 11:46:28 AM new
Yes, they probably will fenix. Doctors are supposed to prescribe medicines and especially opiates for MEDICAL reasons to a patient - who is their first and foremost concern and duty to. Not to appease other people. And when they start going around espousing that kind of thing they're on a real slippery slope.
Libra, I dont know if you know, but they can also apply it to the skin in creme form too.
Yes, God Bless Michael Schiavo and God Bless America!!!! I hope all you arsezholes are happy now one innocent woman was sent off to her death prematurely.
But aren't living wills silly? As I've said before, who would choose to live in a vegetive state? Shouldn't the norm be 'no assistance' if there's severe brain injury and a livng will only to state if you DO want to be kept alive as a vegetable?
posted on March 31, 2005 12:26:58 PM new
Yes, morphine depresses breathing, but 5 mg. is a very small dose that would not depress the breathing to the point of danger. From what you are saying, you show naivete in your understanding of patient care. I have been in the medical field over 30 years, the last 20 with HIV patients. The medical care given to Terri Schivo these last few weeks, including use of morphine , are done every day---an agreement between physician,patient and/or next of kin--and never involves courts, congress or the President of the United States.
posted on March 31, 2005 12:50:50 PM new
I highly doubt they over dosed her with Morphine. My grandmother was given very lose doses of it when she was dying and her breathing was labored. It does indeed ease breathing by relaxing. It is a sedative. I was given it once after surgery. It relaxes you and eases pain. Dblfugger, I'd be interested in seeing your medical license.
Libra
Get real with this, will you? You don't seem to have the ability to see both sides of a story. You aren't there, you don't know either family and you most certainly cannot believe everything you read. Do you know personally what her husband has been through or are you only believing what her parents and siblings are saying? BTW, I heard on Fox News that the sky is falling. I guess you'd better prepare.
There were wrongs on both sides. Toward the end, I don't think it was about Terri's welfare at all. It was a battle between her husband and her parents, both sides wanting to win at all costs.
Living Wills are all well and good, but it still only takes one family member to make it a moot point. It can, and often is, be contested by a relative. Just as important as a Living Will is making sure everyone you know knows what your wishes are in case your Will should be contested.
posted on March 31, 2005 01:24:41 PM new
Losing someone you love is hard no matter what part of the family you are, and no matter what the circumstances concerning the death happen to be. I have personally never met two people who grieve in the exact same way. I doubt anyone is getting married at the courthouse today. I have not read or heard anything of Terri Schiavo being incompetent or incapacitated before she married Michael Schiavo. I have not heard where he was an abusive boyfriend or husband prior to her medical condition, and I have not heard where she herself had wished to end their marriage. Life is not always black and white and it is the gray areas that make life itself unique. No matter what happens later in life, how one changes, or what we choose to believe was any ones motive, the fact is she married him freely.
Can anyone here say they would honestly marry someone they would not trust with their life?
posted on March 31, 2005 01:49:31 PM new
Crosstrader, I'm not sure I get the point of your question. Just because one spouse trusts doesn't mean the other is trustworthy.
Fenix, why are you so adamantly supportive of Michael Shiavo? I don't actually know if the man's a saint or a monster - , but I suspect the truth is somewhere between the two.
posted on March 31, 2005 02:02:45 PM new"Maybe you think that it is all right that his wife is in a comatose state it is alright to have a girlfriend and 2 children."
She's been a vegetable for 15 years. So yes.
"It would have been so much easier to simply hand over control and wash his hands of everything but instead he was dragged thru the muck...."
Yes that's an interesting part of the story. Maybe if the family hadn't gone to such lengths to paint Michael as a monster, the end might have been different. Even President Bush took a shot at Michael in this morning's speech.
I can hardly fault Schiavo for keeping the family away so Terry could pass in peace. Build Your Own Online Store
posted on March 31, 2005 02:14:05 PM newLiving Wills are all well and good, but it still only takes one family member to make it a moot point
Cheryl you are wrong. If there is a living will nobody and I mean nobody can go against that. Telling someone different will not do any good. That is the reason you have them to tell what your wishes are. In case you don't know it, a living will is something that is done when you are living so that you can say what your wishes are if you are admitted in a comatose state. It is kept in your chart with your family physician. It is also in the hospital if you have ever been a patient in that hospital. You can also keep it in your purse and in Minnesota it is on your drivers license. It is for the patient's protection so that this kind of thing won't happen. There is nobody that can reverse your living will.
posted on March 31, 2005 02:20:21 PM newliving will
a legal document in which a person expresses in advance his or her wishes concerning the use of artificial life support, to be referred to should the person be unable to communicate such wishes at the end of life. A living will usually goes into effect only when two physicians certify that a patient is unable to make medical decisions and that the patient's medical circumstances are within the guidelines specified by the state's living-will law. Typically, living wills are used to direct loved ones and doctors to discontinue life-sustaining measures such as intravenous feeding, mechanical respirators, or cardiopulmonary resuscitation that the patient would reject were he or she able. Without clear and convincing evidence of a person's wishes (such as a living will), life support may be continued indefinitely because of hospital policies, fear of liability, or a doctor's moral beliefs, even if the family believes the patient's wishes would be otherwise. Living wills are often used in conjunction with a health-care proxy, which authorizes a previously chosen person to make health-care decisions in the event of incapacity. Most states have legislation authorizing living wills. See also euthanasia.
posted on March 31, 2005 02:20:43 PM new
No, Libra, you are wrong. Just like a regular will, a living will can be contested in court if family members don't agree. I know, I have one and was advised by my attorney when asked that YES it can be contested. My attorney is not a complete idiot and for what I pay him, isn't telling me things that are wrong.
posted on March 31, 2005 03:07:17 PM new
cherished- You are correct-not everyone is trustworthy. But Terri herself....not her parents...siblings...or pastor...made the decision that Michael was. No one else's opinion mattered when she said I do.
I know that marriages are not always ideal and terrible things can happen to people after they marry. I only meant that my opinion on his trustworthiness never did or never will matter. All people have the same free will to decide for themselves.
posted on March 31, 2005 03:32:29 PM new
...that would not depress the breathing to the point of danger....
What could be more dangerous to a body at the brink of drawing its last breath trying to fight off disease, or starvation, than to slow it down??! Now maybe in a HEALTHY BODY there's no danger...but in a body being ravaged with disease or its system already beginning to malfunction, purely biologically speaking, that does not assist the body in its natural mechanism to stay alive. I am well aware that it 'happens' everyday in patient care. But if you're trying to tell me that administering morphine does not hasten the death process, I simply do not agree with you.
Kraft, you're too cute. Just three days ago your spinning your tail that nothing ever dies, not even tissue. Now you're saying terri hasnt been alive laying in bed for fifteen years, or that she couldnt be deemed "alive" for another fifteen years.
whoo-who, who-who-who! tilt-a-whirl time!
Cheryl, there's many sedatives with different properties and reactions in the body - you have any clue why morphine is the drug of choice at the time of death? And, oh yeah, I'm so sure your qualified to speak on the subject because you studied rikki or massage therapy. Did you have to take biology or chemistry courses for certification in that? Or do you just have to be able to figure out what toe to squeeze when somebody's got a bacterial infection in their arm?
posted on March 31, 2005 03:49:59 PM new
"It would have been so much easier to simply hand over control and wash his hands of everything but instead he was dragged thru the muck...."
Obviously you all missed what a control freak this guy is known for being. If he really cared about "terri" and his marriage vows, he would have remained celibate.
He abandoned her and the marriage when he took in a common law wife. You people can make excuses all day long for. Terri Schiavo had no say in this. THIS is what HE WANTED..,Her dead.
whoo-who, who-who-who! tilt-a-whirl time!