crowfarm
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posted on May 1, 2005 09:34:29 AM
Ron, you HAVE to be a conservative Republican....only THEY equate sex with crime.
Libra, sorry but I don't feel a 13 year old should be punished for getting pregnant by having her tubes tied.
So sorry, you neocons view women as breeding livestock but it IS one of the 14 points of the signs of Fascism.
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CBlev65252
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posted on May 1, 2005 09:52:27 AM
It may be reversible, but it's MAJOR surgery.
Cheryl
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crowfarm
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posted on May 1, 2005 10:05:40 AM
Ya but Cheryl, Ron and Libra are going to pay for it out of their own pockets and then in 10 years or so they will happily pay to have it reversed.
I'm sure they will think by then the girl will have "learned her lesson" for the horrible crime she committed of getting pregnant.
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Libra63
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posted on May 1, 2005 10:40:33 AM
So you don't think an abortion is major surgery. Well will wonders never cease.
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crowfarm
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posted on May 1, 2005 10:53:16 AM
libra, ""Well will wonders never cease.""
Not for you.
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on May 1, 2005 10:53:54 AM
Why do you feel the need to label people?
You would be wrong to say I am a conservative republican, I am about as moderate as moderate can get.I am also an independent, I belong to neither party.
You and Cheryl have yet to:
1. state a solution
2. state why everyone except this girl and her parents are responsible for this.
Is no one held accountable for their actions anymore?
Ron
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crowfarm
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posted on May 1, 2005 11:03:28 AM
1. Let her have her legal right to an abortion.
2. Yes, I believe in holding the man who made her pregnant responsible...it's YOU who didn't.
Is no man responsible for his actions anymore?
We do NOT know the circumstances of her getting pregnant but you seem to think she should be punished.???????????????
She IS being responsible by aborting a baby she doesn't want. ...Do you or libra want it? Or want to pay for it to be born or pay her rent and grocery and diaper bills? What's she going to do ...work at Walmart with the baby strapped to her back or are you and libra going to babysit?
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kraftdinner
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posted on May 1, 2005 11:32:22 AM
Ron, having sex is biological. Murdering someone isn't. That's the difference.
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Libra63
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posted on May 1, 2005 12:12:33 PM
crowfarm you have no sense of reasoning. Abortion is murder. There is no other word for it. But you wouldn't understand that. No I wouldn't take care of it, the responsibility is to the child (yes the pregnant child), the father and the parents of both. Put it up for adoption if they wish and I am sure there are married couples that would be happy to have that child. Of course selfish you wouldn't stand for that. You can't understand that people have feelings, you can't understand that there are two sides of every story. Yours is only the right side.
Libra, sorry but I don't feel a 13 year old should be punished for getting pregnant by having her tubes tied Where did I say that? I just said having your tubes tide is reversable. Again you read what you want to in a response, next time get it right.
I am sure there are Conservative democrats that don't believe in abortion also. Get over it crowfarm all democrats are not liberals and all republicans are not conservatives. It is in your mind that you believe otherwise.
You make statements about people that aren't true. Again in your mind everyone that is republican is evil, well they are not.
She IS being responsible by aborting a baby she doesn't want Another stupid statement. If she didn't want to get pregnant then she either shouldn't have had sex, yes I said sex because that is what makes babies or should have used protection. She is as much at fault as the male and the parents of both.
KD Abortion to many is murder. It all depends on when you think life begins. Does life begin when the heart beats? When you die life ends when the heart doesn't beat.
I will bet that if that child has an ultrasound that the heart of that unborn fetus is beating.
I just read an article about this child that she is 3 months pregnant and after 3 months abortion is very risky. Now what if she does have an abortion and she dies. Then whose fault is it?
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[ edited by Libra63 on May 1, 2005 04:32 PM ]
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Libra63
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posted on May 1, 2005 12:22:33 PM
Yes there are Concervative democrats. Good read.
http://www.conservativedemocrats.org/
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on May 1, 2005 12:54:32 PM
Kraftdinner I fail to understand your reasoning behind that, actually when it comes right down to it, evreything we do is "biological". Most people murder under the assumption of self preservation.
13 years old is not a woman and we don't know the age of the male partcipant, but I doubt he is a man.
I have already stated that it took two to do this, the male however is not the one asking for an abortion at 13.
No one expects this 13 year to keep a baby, there are adoption programs. Where does it say a 13 year old has a legal right to have an abortion? I am curious as to what law this is.
That is part of the problem, she should not have that legal right until the age of 18.
As I said before we are not making anyone responsible for their actions anymore if they are under 18.
So how many abortions is she allowed? One a year as long as she can get away with it, with no consequences for her actions?
Ron
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kraftdinner
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posted on May 1, 2005 01:00:52 PM
Libra, I can appreciate that you and many others feel that abortion is murder. It's understandable. But there are many degrees when it comes to "murder". Are doctors that pull the plugs on patients murderers? Is Kevorkian a murderer? Is capital punishment murder? The world eats animals by the millions - are the butchers murderers? You step on ants when you walk to your car - are you a murderer? If life is so precious, then why are there these gray areas?
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kraftdinner
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posted on May 1, 2005 01:10:06 PM
"Cheryl I noticed how you said that 13 year olds are pretty smart today. Well to me that says then they are smart enough to know that murder is wrong and should be tried as an adult. Why do we allow these double standards for children? If they are smart enough to decide to have sex and then have an abortion all without parent intervention, then they are definately smart enough to stand before the judge as an adult."
Ron, you are grouping having sex with committing murder, saying if a 13 year old is smart enough to have sex, then they're smart enough to stand trial for murder. Since when did a person have to be smart to have sex or murder someone? I fail to see your reasoning.
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fenix03
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posted on May 1, 2005 03:14:26 PM
::So you don't think an abortion is major surgery. Well will wonders never cease.::
Libra - come on. You know damn well that abortion is not major surgery. It is a non invasive outpatient proceedure. You have a medical background and certainly you know the difference.
Your view of the morality of the procedure does not change the medical reality.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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maggiemuggins
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posted on May 1, 2005 03:24:13 PM
In my opinion.. life doesn't begin until the first breath is drawn. Teenage girls should have the right to have an abortion.
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on May 1, 2005 03:38:52 PM
My reasoning is that we treat children as "adults" in one instance (Abortion) and as children in another (Murder). Yes two different areas, sort of. But we should not be setting this double standard. They are either children or adults in both instances they should be treated the same.
The idea of 13 year or a sub 18 year old just hopping down the clinic for a quick nip, without their parents knowing about it is wrong.
At 13 she was not smart enough to have protected sex. She shouldn't have the right to decide to have an abortion. She is not a woman.
In our society males are only financially resposnsible if there is a child, so yes an abortion would benefit the male more.
He has an easy out to continue to have sex without a condom.
No consequences for his actions either.
Ron
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kraftdinner
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posted on May 1, 2005 04:27:36 PM
Ron, I'm not sure how allowing a young girl to have an abortion is treating her like an adult? What do you mean?
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Libra63
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posted on May 1, 2005 05:09:03 PM
This is what she says.Why can't I make my own decision? It's my business," she told circuit judge Ronald Alvarez when he granted a temporary injunction while LG undergoes psychological evaluation.
"It would make no sense to have the baby," said LG, who became pregnant after running away from her care home in January. "I'm 13, I'm in a shelter and I can't get a job."
At the heart of her case is a wrangle over whether the wishes of the state, LG's legal guardian since her removal from abusive parents, can trump her constitutional right to choose.
*********
She is a ward of the state. the state is her guardian. The people of Florida are responsible for her and her bills.
Yes fenix even if you and other don't think that an abortion is major surgery then why do they have you sign a surgical consent form, but since she isn't of legal age to sign one what then do they do in case of a dire emergency and have to take her into the operating room. What happens if she bleeds to death. What then. What happens if when during the abortion problems arise and she can never have children again. Can she sue the state?
When giving a child adult choices someone always loses. Who will lose. The aborted child.
So the majority here think that it is alright for a 13 year old to have an abortion without parental consent. Would you want your 12 year old child to have one? Answer truthfully.
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profe51
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posted on May 1, 2005 05:49:31 PM
I have a 15 year old, and while I wouldn't want her to have an abortion, so what?
This girl is being prevented from exercising her legal rights, in a very capricious manner. You can't tell me whoever is doing this to her doesn't have a larger agenda. At what point do you suppose it'll come out that the same people who tried to keep Terry Schiavo alive are behind this one too?
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
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twig125silver
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posted on May 1, 2005 05:58:15 PM
I believe life begins at conception. As soon as there is "life", it's a baby. Taking a baby's life is wrong. Period.
It could be the six miscarriages to get the two children I DID have that helps to form my opinion. If I had trouble getting pregnant and/or carrying a child, I imagines there are at least thousands of people who would adopt them.
If these kids are getting abortions, or getting birth control behind their parents' backs, I AM paying for it...with my tax dollars.
And if my child were to get a prescription drug or a procedure, outpatient or otherwise, without my consent, I would be upset....Especially if there were complications.
But I guess I'm not as "enlightened" as all of the parents posting here.
I'm a liberal Republican.
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twig125silver
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posted on May 1, 2005 05:59:33 PM
edited to add: WELCOME BACK EVERYBODY 
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crowfarm
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posted on May 1, 2005 06:42:33 PM
Yup, Twig, and you'll be paying for her AND the baby when she goes on welfare.
My point is:
No female should be forced to have a baby as if she was a broodmare or other breeding stock. PERIOD.
And nobody here has said they'll adopt the baby.....there are MANY, MANY kids out there who need to be adopted and NOBODY wants them.....it is NOT the answer.
And the people who want to force her to have the baby aren't going to adopt it either....they'd rather watch her and the child suffer the effects of a 13 year old mother.
Ron says, "At 13 she was not smart enough to have protected sex."
So she WOULD be smart enough to be a good MOTHER ??????????
I just can't believe the people here who think having a baby at 13 is GOOD IDEA ???????!!!!!!!!???????
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WashingtoneBayer
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posted on May 1, 2005 06:53:06 PM
I never said it was a "good" idea, however she will learn nothing if allowed to have the abortion without parental consent.
So prof51 you don't care that your daughter could get pregnant, have an abortion and you'd be none the wiser?
I am not anti-abortion, if the person is over 18, no one under 18 should have an abortion without parental consent.
Wanted to add, I doubt if she had the baby she would be allowed to keep it, unless the parents agreed.
Ron
[ edited by WashingtoneBayer on May 1, 2005 06:54 PM ]
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CBlev65252
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posted on May 1, 2005 06:57:56 PM
Again, an abortion is NOT major surgery. I went with someone a few years ago who had one. In and out all within two hours. A tubal ligation requires the use of anesthesia. It is not an out patient procedure. My niece had one after her third child and was hospitalized for three days. Anyone with any kind of medical background knows the difference.
Ward of the state or not, unless Florida can usurp the constitution, the girl has the right to an abortion. Since there was a history of parental abuse, the chances that she will become an abusive parent are quite high especially if it's an unwanted child. What, is Florida making their own rules now? Thank God I have no intention of ever living there.
. . .no one under 18 should have an abortion without parental consent.
And, since that parent is making the decision for their child, are they prepared to raise AND support this child as their own? Why do you think there are so many children being raised by grandparents? They are the product of a mother that didn't want them in the first place. These children are scarred for life. Imagine knowing that your mother never wanted you.
Cheryl
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 1, 2005 07:00 PM ]
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bigpeepa
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posted on May 1, 2005 07:08:32 PM
So now people like Washington and Libra are so smart ITS THEIR WAY OR NO WAY.
Maybe they can petition their leaders to make a NEW LAW. The law would say every girl past the age of 10 would need to fill out a questioner about their views on family values,religion,and out of marriage sex. If these young Girls didn't reach the tests high moral standards they would have their tubes tied. After that they would be sent off to a camp and be taught the government's better way of life. This is not a new idea North Viet Nam had a lot of attitude adjustment camps.
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crowfarm
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posted on May 1, 2005 07:10:06 PM
OH MY GAWD Ron, you want her to have this baby to TEACH HER a LESSON ???!?!?!
Thanks for thinking so much about the baby and the life it will have. YES, your hard hearted TEACH HER A LESSON approach is "conservative compassion" at it's "best".
Then you say, "Wanted to add, I doubt if she had the baby she would be allowed to keep it, unless the parents agreed."
So you think this 13 year old brood mare should first be forced to have the baby just to have it taken away !
ALLOWED to keep it ???!!!!....what do you suggest...sell it on the local livestock auction since you seem to think the mother is nothing more than an animal.....
UH, if she has it it happens to be hers to keep.
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Libra63
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posted on May 1, 2005 07:49:45 PM
Cheryl it seems like everything we talk about has happened to your family. Can't you just quit with the my family part and give your opinion without including them.
If my child at the age of 12 was allowed to have an abortion without my consent I would find the nearest lawyer. There is no way on this earth that I would allow that and anyone in here that would is really stupid. Yes I said stupid. You know she might never come home.
To bad crowfarm since you have no children that you don't care about anyone elses. And Maggie you were all upset that maybe your daughter had cancer. What about her at age 12 would you have been happy if she had had an abortion? I will bet no but since it hasn't happened to me whats the difference give the child what she wants.
So you all in favor of her abortion thinks it is all right for her to get pregnant have an abortion so that she can go and get pregnant again. What lesson did she learn? None. Yes she did I take that back she learned that if she gets pregnant again she can have another abortion. I will make a bet she is out on the street two days later having sex again. I wonder how many abortions she can have before the age of 18. Add it up, She can have a total of 53. I think they need to give her the day after pill to save all the wear and tear on her body.
No crowfarm teach her a lesson that she can have the abortion and then go out and have sex again and again and abortion after abortion. Maybe you would like to pay the bill. I bet Florida would give you a medal for that.
Ron that is crowfarms agenda to call people names. She can never address the poster. You would have thought she learned her lesson.
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fenix03
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posted on May 1, 2005 07:58:00 PM
Yes fenix even if you and other don't think that an abortion is major surgery then why do they have you sign a surgical consent form::
Libra - how is it that you can profess to be such a medical expert one minute and then make such a ridiculously niave statement the next. I have to sign a consent form when I go to the dentist because I have to be knocked out. You know full well that because of malpractice suits that consent forms are required for damn near everything these days in excess of two asprin. It is not major surgery. Debate at will on the moral aspects but lets not twist the medical ones to fit your moral view.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
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kraftdinner
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posted on May 1, 2005 08:26:10 PM
Libra, how do you go from a girl wanting an abortion, to the possibility of her having 53 if she has sex again? You're assuming this person is going to use abortions as a means of birth control for the rest of her life. Where do you get this from?
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Libra63
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posted on May 1, 2005 08:38:12 PM
No KD but she can and will use it as birth control until she reaches the age of 18, now that she knows her rights and the ACLU is behind her. What is stopping her? Figure out how many times she can get pregnant between now and at the age of 18. The possibility is once a month. Not that she will but it is possible. Now a days you can find out your pregnant within days after sex. Well at least within 2-3 weeks. You do the math. I know it is far fetched but it could happen.
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