posted on May 1, 2005 08:38:54 PM new
Libra..Cheryl it seems like everything we talk about has happened to your family Can't you just quit with the my family part and give your opinion without including them.
You know Libra, you complain constantly about others on the RT being rude and ugly.. but I believe the statement you made to Cheryl is the rudest I've read in a long time.
It appears to many here that you would like to control the RT... the content of everyone's posts, the manner in which they reply, and the words they choose to use..so using your own words , the ones you like to use so often..
Get over yourself Libra..you do not need to be telling anyone how to post or what to say..
You may be older than Jesus herself, but that doesn't make you Queen of the Round Table!
posted on May 1, 2005 08:39:32 PM new
libra, if she has the baby, dear, she can still continue to have sex. She may or may not continue to have sex whether she has an abortion or the baby.
Your:""To bad crowfarm since you have no children that you don't care about anyone elses. And Maggie you were all upset that maybe your daughter had cancer. What about her at age 12 would you have been happy if she had had an abortion? I will bet no but since it hasn't happened to me whats the difference give the child what she wants.""
.....is not name calling but is as nasty as a person can get.
You berate Cheryl for getting personal and then attack Maggie and I in a most personal way.
Your cold hearted nastiness is just so Republican....(Oh, oh, there I go calling people bad names again )
posted on May 1, 2005 08:53:25 PM new
Right fenix and she is not at an age to sign a consent. Who will sign her consent if something goes wrong?
So I am against abortion. Is that wrong because I feel so strongly about it. No I don't think so. Do the people that believe in abortion have a bigger say than I do. No I don't think so.
Fenix I never sign a consent form when I go to the dentist because I don't get "knocked out".
posted on May 1, 2005 08:54:02 PM new
fenix so what if its not a MAJOR surgery. It's still a surgery - just like pulling a tooth is. It involves anesthia and instruments and blood loss and all that good stuff. Major septic infection could set in if post op care isnt done (and even if it is.) So if a kid got sick with a septic infection and the parents didnt know about any abortion, they could never tell doctors what might be the possible source of it. Thats very scary for a parent.
posted on May 1, 2005 09:04:12 PM new
Dbl, I don't know if all that can happen but I do know it will happen if abortion is outlawed.....but , of course, not for RICH women who can always go to a more enlightened country, have a safe abortion in a nice clinic and fly home with no one the wiser.
And poor women should have to suffer and be punished for being poor.
posted on May 1, 2005 09:05:27 PM new
Since you chimed in maggie, Cheryl has said some hateful things to me so get over it. Why everyone else does it and yes Cheryl has done it to me also. Do you remember when she wanted to hit me upside the head. No I bet you don't so get over it.
I am not queen of the round table. I seem to remember Kiara was elect to that position and we were supposed to have an election for sgt at arms but never happened. NTS wanted that job.
Sorry Kiara but I think that is right. Correct me if I am wrong.
posted on May 1, 2005 09:09:22 PM new
OH libra, I have NEVER seen ONE hateful word from Cheryl! She is the kindest most patient person here!
You old bat....know what a red herring is ?....it's your pathetic attempt to turn the conversation away from your nastiness and try to direct it elsewhere. Well, it ain't gonna work !
posted on May 1, 2005 09:18:11 PM new
Libra:And Maggie you were all upset that maybe your daughter had cancer What about her at age 12 would you have been happy if she had had an abortion I will bet no but since it hasn't happened to me whats the difference give the child what she wants.
Would I be Happy if my 12 year old daughter had an abortion...what an utterly, asinine, and thoughtless question...you never cease to amaze me with your total lack of compassion!
No, I would not be Happy if my 12 year old had an abortion..and I'm grateful that neither of my daughters ever had to suffer such pain and heartbreak... but you can be very sure that if either had been in this situation, I'd have stood by their right to choose an abortion and would have supported their decision to do so.
posted on May 1, 2005 09:21:37 PM new
I thought Helen was 'the queen of the round table' didn't Maggie give her that title a long time ago when after she first arrived and was trying to establish herself here and she got into arguments with everyone because she thought we were all so entertaining??
posted on May 1, 2005 09:23:05 PM new
crowfarm, it can and does happen.
Well, Cheryl states her friend had tubal ligation and was in the hospital for three days. -- When was this? For the past 10 years or so, they do laser surgery. They make a tiny incision near your naval and go in with a laser tool and camera and cauterize the tubes. The same way they burn out cysts and tumors. It is also a day surgery procedure. And awhole lot less 'invasive' than dilating your cervical canal and sticking a vacuum tube up your uterus and scraping around blindly against it's walls.
posted on May 1, 2005 09:23:18 PM new
Actually crofarm, if it was found she could not take care of the baby, it would be taken away by cps.
I am wondering if by tying this up in the courts long enough, she will be ineligible for an abortion by the fact that the pregancy will be to far along.
posted on May 1, 2005 09:47:06 PM new
Dbl - When someone makes a pattently incorrect statement in their arguement, I'm going to correct it. Especially when that someone frequently presents themselves as a medical expert. It is not major surgery. I'm not going to argue the morality because as we can see, there is not a lot of logic and realism involved in the moral arguement. I'm simply correcting the factual mis-statement.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on May 1, 2005 10:45:22 PM new
So maggie you would be in favor of the school nurse to give a 13 year old child (8th grader) an address where she can go have an abortion without telling you.
I sure wouldn't. But that is me. It has nothing to do with being a Republican it has to do with being a mother. This is a sad situation as I think there is nobody responsible for this child. If you read she is living in a shelter. Is she attending school? If someone doesn't get a hold of her she will fall through the cracks and that is even more devastating to me. She will be on the street forever.
posted on May 1, 2005 10:46:54 PM new
You do fairly often claim to know what you're talking about due to having worked in the medical field , Libra. I remember one thread about an ADHD kid, wherein you claimed to know lots about Ritalin because you worked in a clinic or some such.
as far as this is concerned: (I know you didn't say it, Libra)
So prof51 you don't care that your daughter could get pregnant, have an abortion and you'd be none the wiser?
Of course I care, my point was, there are laws in place that allow this girl to have an abortion without parental consent. She's being used, I'll bet you, by people who'd like those laws changed. Meantime, her rights are being abridged unfairly. Wonder how many well off girls had abortions this month in Florida???
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
It was right after she had her last child and it was not done with laser surgery.
Wow, Libra, what's the last word in that sentence? Surgery? Do they call it abortion surgery? No, of course not because it's not surgery.
Libra
What's wrong? Is being able to provide living examples more reliable than your Internet cut and paste "what if" scenerios?
"I'm going to hit you upside your head" is a figure of speech. Get over it and quit reading in to it what's not there. My mother used to say that (ooops, sorry for bringing up family). That doesn't mean she wanted to hit me. It's called trying to verbally knock some sense into someone. But, why am I bothering to explain it?
And, if I want to use a "live" example, I have every right to. You and others here are always saying you have the right to say this and the right to say that. So, I'm exercising mine. BTW, the abortion was not a family member and that person went on to have two lovely children AFTER she was married. Hardly call that using abortion as birth control.
- - - -
". . .there are about 70,000 women who die every year from unsafe abortions, mostly in third-world countries where evangelical Christians have succeeded in banning legal abortions. . .
But imagine an alternative world. Imagine a world in which pro-lifers realized that 1) banning abortion has never, in the real world, led to a low abortion rate, and 2) feminists and civil libertarians will never, ever give up fighting to protect reproductive rights. On the other hand, what if the endless people-hours and billions of dollars pro-lifers spend on banning abortion were instead spent on working to actually reduce abortion, by incrementally working towards a Netherlands-level social support system? Sure, it would be a hard fight - but instead of being enemies, feminists, pro-lifers and civil libertarians would all working in the same direction. And unlike banning abortion, a victory in this case actually could lead to a low abortion rate, if real-world abortion rates are anything to judge by."
Average cost of abortion in the US: $490
Average cost of tubal ligation: $2,314
Average cost of tubal ligation reversal: $10,000 to $15,000
Throughout the US, the average cost of having a tubal sterilization reversal is $10,000 to $15,000, and in most cases health insurance does not pay for this operation. The high out-of-pocket cost prohibits many women from having access to the reversal procedure. The alternative treatment (in vitro fertilization or ivf) is just as expensive.
The operation to reverse tubal ligation is highly technical, expensive, and its results cannot be guaranteed - about 19% chance you can get pregnant after the reversal.
The stats above were taken from various medical web sites and they all say about the same thing. Reversal is costly and getting pregnant after a reversal is extremely difficult. Most couples have to resort to In Vitro Fertilization which costs even more.
So, we are now sentencing this girl to not having any more children for life? Who here is going to pay the tens of thousands of dollars so that she can have more children?
So, in conclusion, get over it, Libra. I wasn't being nasty to you. Calling crowfarm or maggie nasty is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Don't ya think?
Cheryl
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 2, 2005 04:42 AM ]
posted on May 2, 2005 05:21:10 AM new
Yes I do believe she is being used, unfortunately, however if it gets parental permission back to pre 18 abortions, I think it is worth it.
posted on May 2, 2005 05:23:39 AM new
Cheryl and fenix, I dont know what your hang-up is with the word surgery, but most abortions are surgical procedures in the true definition of the word surgery.
Definition
An abortion is a procedure, either surgical or medical, to end a pregnancy by removing the fetus and placenta from the uterus.
Alternative Names
Induced abortion; Suction curettage; Surgical abortion; Medical abortion
Description
A surgical abortion that is performed between 6 and 12 weeks into a pregnancy may be done while the woman is awake. She is given the option of being sedated by medications, or having her cervix numbed with an injection of anesthesia so that she is basically pain-free.
A surgical abortion for a pregnancy over 12 weeks is usually done while the woman is sedated, although it can also be performed while the woman is awake. The cervical canal is enlarged (dilated) and a hollow tube is inserted into the uterus.
A vacuum (suction) machine is used to remove the tissues (fetus and placenta) from the uterus. Medicines such as oxytocin are sometimes given to cause the uterine muscles to contract and reduce bleeding.
An abortion can be performed non-surgically for a pregnancy less than 7 weeks from the first day of the last menstrual period using a combination of medications. The current regimen approved by the FDA includes administration of one dose of Mifepristone (RU486), an antiprogestin, followed by one dose of Misoprostol, a prostaglandin analogue two days later. These medications may be given in the doctor´s office, after a thorough history and physical is performed.
posted on May 2, 2005 05:42:55 AM new
You are not under anesthesia when having an abortion unless it's a later term abortion, which I don't approve of. It shouldn't take 12 weeks to decided whether or not you to carry the fetus to term. My point being, why make the girl go through surgery for a tubal ligation, when a man can be snipped in a matter of minutes? It's the old double standard (OMG, I used a phrase used primarily by the Righties on this board). It takes two to make a baby, but let's "fix" the woman and leave the man go.
Ron asked for a solution and I think I provided a pretty good start of one in the paragraph beginning. . .But imagine an alternative world. That idea came from a pro-lifer.
Edited to add: No one finds it hypocritical that the pro-lifers are against abortions, but not against bombing abortion clinics where innocent people have been killed? That reeks of hypocrisy.
Cheryl
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 2, 2005 05:44 AM ]
posted on May 2, 2005 06:13:33 AM new
Cheryl what you typed : Surgery? Do they call it abortion surgery? No, of course not because it's not surgery... is what I found disconcerting. And I think in some places they do put you under anesthesia or at least they did at one time. I just have to wonder if your symantics about not calling it a "surgery" is because that somehow makes it "ok" to do it without parental consent? I dont think a kid could walk into any medical facility and have anything, no matter how minor, done without parental consent. But maybe the laws have changed.
I do agree with you, though, about the tubal ligation and think its a bad idea. Especially for young girls.
edited to add: I am not anti-abortion either. I believe in a womans right to choose what to do with her body and her life. Probably about 85% of abortions are low risk procedures medically and psychologically. But what about the other 15-20%?? And I just think a kid needs somebody they trust to talk to them about it, preferably if there is a parent that they can talk to.
posted on May 2, 2005 08:11:18 AM new KD asks..."Libra, I can appreciate that you and many others feel that abortion is murder. It's understandable. But there are many degrees when it comes to "murder". Are doctors that pull the plugs on patients murderers? Is Kevorkian a murderer? Is capital punishment murder? The world eats animals by the millions - are the butchers murderers? You step on ants when you walk to your car - are you a murderer? If life is so precious, then why are there these gray areas?"
KD asks..."Ron, you are grouping having sex with committing murder, saying if a 13 year old is smart enough to have sex, then they're smart enough to stand trial for murder. Since when did a person have to be smart to have sex or murder someone? I fail to see your reasoning."
"Ron, I'm not sure how allowing a young girl to have an abortion is treating her like an adult? What do you mean?"
..............
And the beat goes on...with Libra and KD trying desperately to engage posters --- KD, by challenging the neocons to justify their clearly outrageous statements while Libra deliberately makes such statements that just beg for correction. It's an established, boring rhythm but rather interesting nevertheless.
When butts of dubious distinction are kissed those kind of butts proliferate.
posted on May 2, 2005 09:29:20 AM newAnd the beat goes on...with Libra and KD trying desperately to engage posters --- KD, by challenging the neocons to justify their clearly outrageous statements while Libra deliberately makes such statements that just beg for correction. It's an established, boring rhythm but rather interesting nevertheless...
Helen, I dont know how something is "boring" but "rather interesting" none the less? - And who are you today? The Dave Madden of the RT? Giving us the play-by-play of the posts? LOL!!
Don't forget Quatermass called Crowfarm a racist. I'm still waiting for his answer as to where she's posted this way. I also asked how the right could believe a word of what Rush Limbaugh says and again, nobody wanted to answer. Go figure.
posted on May 2, 2005 03:08:55 PM new
Libra, I know you're more sensible than to fall for a male bimbo like Rush, but many do, and many believe what he says has validity because he uses the word God a lot, yet what he preaches is the opposite of how he lives.
It boils down to the same hypocrisy with people who are against abortion, yet think it's fine to kill criminals, animals, insects, or any other form of life.
When ego overrides logic, a person will never be close to God, imo.
posted on May 2, 2005 03:37:43 PM new
I have never listened to Hannity & Combs, Chris Matthews, Larry King and whoever the others are as it is just proproganda. In fact we don't have cable. I make up my own mind. I don't look a polls as most are biased. I do read the paper but they are biased also. I guess that leaves the reality shows.
posted on May 2, 2005 03:49:55 PM new
Libra, if you want unbias news reporting, listen to Lou Dobbs (or Bill Maher if you dare!). Too bad Charles Grodin isn't on anymore. He was always dead on.
posted on May 2, 2005 05:23:45 PM new
"It boils down to the same hypocrisy with people who are against abortion, yet think it's fine to kill criminals, animals, insects, or any other form of life"
hey krafty-you Canadians still torturing the seals up there by beating them to death with baseball bats?? I guess a good time was had by all HEH??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
[ edited by classicrock000 on May 2, 2005 05:38 PM ]
posted on May 2, 2005 06:28:39 PM new
That's pretty shameful stuff Classic. I'm glad that you're aware of some of the savage things that are done to animals here. It's heartbreaking, imo.
)
