posted on May 3, 2005 01:41:09 AM new
Thank heaven, dblfugger, you were here to inform the mis-informed that abortion IS a surgical procedure, and it also is invasive, in first, second and third trimester pregnancies. To think otherwise is to lack knowledge of how they're preformed, by surgery.
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edited to add a link where tubal ligation reversals are even being done on an out-patient basis.
tubal ligations are ALSO done on out-patient basis...just like their male counterparts....vascetomies according to the Mayo Clinic and can be verified at mayoclinic.com
Also tubal ligations are MOST easily perform during the birthing process.
posted on May 3, 2005 03:09:29 AM new
Linda - apparently you and dbl need to reread the posts because you both seem to be missing the word "MAJOR". The only thing I was stating is that abortion is not MAJOR surgery as was asserted by Libra.
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on May 3, 2005 06:34:40 AM new
Well she got her wish and that is fine but will that stop her from having sex? Probably not but I hope she gets counseling and birth control.
Judge grants abortion request by Palm Beach County girl, 13
By John Coté
Staff Writer
Posted May 3 2005
A Palm Beach County judge ruled on Monday that a pregnant 13-year-old girl could get an abortion, saying she had a constitutional right to the procedure despite objections from the state social services agency in charge of her care.
"Legally speaking, it's not a difficult decision to make," Circuit Judge Ronald Alvarez said. "Morally speaking, it's a very difficult decision for this court to make. ... But I'm not here to make the moral decision. I'm here to make the legal decisions."
The teen has been the center of an emotional legal dispute that has rippled into the national debate on parental notification laws.
The girl's attorney said in court Monday afternoon that the abortion was "imminent" and scheduled for that day. Alvarez also ordered the Department of Children & Families, the girl's legal guardian, to either transport her for the procedure or turn her over to her attorneys, who would have temporary custody until the abortion was complete.
But it was unclear how at least one appeal could affect the case or whether the teen actually had undergone the procedure.
An attorney for the DCF filed an appeal Monday asking that Alvarez's decision be temporarily blocked pending review, Maxine Williams, an attorney for the girl, said in court. DCF attorney Jeffrey Gillen declined to comment afterward.
"Since this is still in litigation, I can't speak to what's going on in court," DCF spokeswoman Marilyn Munoz said. "I'm not going to have any more information until [today]."
Legal documents in the case, both at the circuit and appeals court levels, are sealed because the issues involve a minor, identified in court as L.G.
Her attorneys, cooperating with the American Civil Liberties Union, had appealed Alvarez's initial order that barred L.G. from having an abortion until a psychological evaluation was done.
James Green, who filed the appeal, declined to comment about specifics.
"This poor girl has gone through enough," Green said. "All I can say is the legal burden has shifted to DCF, and anything further that they do will only advance a political agenda that is against the best interest of the child."
The 13-year-old, a permanent ward of the state who has run away at least five times, sought to have an abortion last week after finding out she was 14 weeks pregnant.
The DCF is the teen's legal guardian after she was taken away from her parents. Agency officials have cited state statute that says: "In no case shall the department consent to sterilization, abortion, or termination of life support."
But state law allows minors to have abortions without notifying their guardians. Experts say the law extends to wards of the state.
L.G. was "not of sufficient maturity to make the choice at all," and allowing her to go through with the abortion would have "irreparable and irrevocable consequences," Gillen argued in court Monday.
Williams countered that L.G. had a constitutional right to choose to have the abortion.
"The department's efforts here, without any authority, is infringing on her right to exercise her constitutional rights," Williams said. "That, in fact, is going to cause her irreparable harm if we delay this any more."
L.G. is in her second trimester, and risks to her health from an abortion increase with time.
In setting aside his initial ruling that temporarily barred L.G. from having an abortion, Alvarez cited testimony that girls her age have a more than three times greater risk of death carrying the fetus to term than if they had an abortion.
"Delaying the child exercising her constitutional right ... would increase the risk to the child of her losing her life," the judge said.
L.G., in a closed hearing with Alvarez last week, said having the baby made "no sense."
"I don't think I should have the baby because I'm 13, I'm in a shelter and I can't get a job," the girl said in a recording of the hearing.
Advocates monitoring the case had mixed reaction to Monday's developments, with some continuing to place L.G. within the culture-of-life campaign fueled recently by the fight over whether Terri Schiavo, a brain-damaged woman, should live.
"Are we going to do the same thing to it that we did to Terri Schiavo without a full investigation? Are we going to kill a baby just like we killed Terri Schiavo?" said Larry Klayman, a Miami-based attorney who founded the conservative group Judicial Watch. "It's not just about the life of the baby. It's about the emotional well-being of this child later in life. She may live to regret it."
Clarice Pollock, president of the Florida chapter of the National Organization for Women, blasted DCF's decision to appeal Monday's ruling.
"What is DCF trying to prove?" Pollock said. "What's a 13-year-old doing having a baby and what will happen to that baby? ... These people are not thinking about this young woman and her life at all."
Staff Writer Tal Abbady contributed to this report.
posted on May 3, 2005 07:25:57 AM new
no, fenix, you need to reread the thread and stop applying things to yourself that are not in reference to your own post. I previously addressed your MAJOR comment.
posted on May 3, 2005 07:52:57 AM new
Which post was it that I was supposed to ignore becasue it did not address my points dbl - yours that included my name or Lindas that directly addressed the two points that I made?
Is someone start a fight today?
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If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
Here you see a horrendous display of Right wing compassion by those who would like to sterilize children and try them as adults.
Not one of the children of Bullenhuser Damm was older than twelve. Stripped of their childhoods, they lived and died during the dark years of the Holocaust and were victims of the Nazi regime. Had they survived another two weeks, they would have been liberated by the Allied forces ..
Fenix, I dont see where Linda addressed your points at all. Linda did not say anything about MAJOR surgery. She said it is a surgical procedure and is invasive in 2nd&3rd trimester. Cheryl was the one who said she didnt consider it a surgery at all. Then you come along and tell me to reread the thread? For what? I know where and who and what I addressed in this thread. And yes, I told you you seem to have a problem with it whether its major surgery or a minor surgery, it's still surgery. Its like, if you can deny that it takes pure medical intervention to suck out a forming life, then you can feel okay about it. ::shrug:: its nothing major, it's just a minor inconvenience." Is that it? So what was your point again -- its not a major surgery?
posted on May 3, 2005 09:08:58 AM new
This says it ALL:
"""Legally speaking, it's not a difficult decision to make," Circuit Judge Ronald Alvarez said. "Morally speaking, it's a very difficult decision for this court to make. ...
But I'm not here to make the moral decision. I'm here to make the legal decisions." ""
And isn't it funny how SOME neocons are against abortion but LOVE TORTURE ????
Says a whole lot about their total lack of ability to reason.
posted on May 3, 2005 09:42:18 AM new
It's a school where children were used as guinea pigs and then murdered by the nazis.
In November 1944 20 Jewish children, ten boys and ten girls, had been brought from Auschwitz to the concentration camp of Neuengamme, just outside Hamburg. The youngsters, aged between 5 and 12 years old, came from all over Europe. Plucked from their homes the children had witnessed the murder of parents, siblings, and relatives. They faced starvation, illness, brutal labor and other indignities until they were consigned to the gas chambers of Auschwitz.
To conceal all traces the SS transported the children to the former Bullenhuser Damm School, which had been used as a satellite camp since October 1944. They were immediately taken to the basement and ordered to undress.
An SS officer later reported: "They sat down on the benches all around and were cheerful and happy that they had been for once allowed out of Neuengamme. The children were completely unsuspecting."
The children were told that they had to be vaccinated against typhoid fever before their return journey. Then they were injected with morphine. They were hanged from hooks on the wall, but the SS men found it difficult to kill the mutilated children. The first child to be strung up was so light - due to disease and malnutrition - that the rope wouldn’t strangle him. SS untersturmführer Frahm had to use all of his own weight to tighten the noose. Then he hanged the others, two at a time, from different hooks. 'Just like pictures on the wall', he would recall later. He added that none of the children had cried.
Not one of the children of Bullenhuser Damm was older than twelve. Stripped of their childhoods, they lived and died during the dark years of the Holocaust and were victims of the Nazi regime.
posted on May 3, 2005 10:33:12 AM new
Thank you (I think) Helen. What a horrible story....to think there are humans who could do that to another human.....oh, that's right ....so many "good christians" believe this is the right thing to do.
Do you see how unaffected libra was by it ?
Would rather ignore it and slam me because she hasn't got a decent reply.
posted on May 3, 2005 12:36:23 PM new
Yellow, did you read Helen's post about the children hung from meat hooks? Torture only shows how weak and desparate you are. It has NOTHING to do with the strength of a country, as we've all hopefully learned from Germany's past, right?
P.S. Agreeing with someone isn't sucking up, Yellow.
posted on May 3, 2005 01:40:55 PM new
I'd better nip this in the bud right away or Crowfarm will post in several hundred threads that I approve of children being tortured.
Yes Kraft, I read Helens post and I agree that torture and cruelty for it's own sake is wrong and these children obviously had no information to divulge so what else could it have been done for.
As far as agreeing with someone not being sucking up, I also agree with you on that, however, everytime I or any other conservative agrees with with another, we get refered to as being suckups, lap-dogs etc. Libra herself is being told that she has 'followers' now because some agree with her posts. What i've seen coming from the left on this board is that they try to devide us with these kinds of posts but it just doesn't work.
posted on May 3, 2005 01:49:58 PM new
Yellowstone - so what is it called when you agree with or praise Linda or Bear or Libra? Get a grip. Crowfarm and Helen have disagreed in the past just as I've disagreed with them. The difference between you and us is we at least know how to disagree. It shows we have our own opinions and aren't so tied down to one idea that we become repetitive.
Hey, Helen, I liked your post, too. I'm just a little old suck up like crowfarm, I guess.
posted on May 3, 2005 02:09:17 PM new
Writing as you were posting. Actually, writing, checking in inventory and listening to the TV while you were posting. I'm multi-tasking.
posted on May 3, 2005 03:18:45 PM new
Yellow, I was only using Helen's post to show what a terrible failure Germany's "cleansing" was and should never be repeated, no matter what the reasoning is. Torture of any kind isn't very far removed from what they did in Germany, Yellow.
As for torture for secrets being OK, what secrets?? Maybe a good excuse but definately NOT why people are tortured.
