posted on September 13, 2000 02:54:34 AM
Heather, I see what they did as a LIE and I have every intention of making that fact known to MY customers - should they ask.
Perhaps, I have just had enough of being lied to in this whole 'auction game' from every corner. Every one wanting a piece of the action and 'saying' whatever it takes to get you to try their service.
Perhaps, you are able to withstand 'abuse' better than I.
When I signed up with PayPal and X.Com - it was FREE and promised to me that it would always be FREE - there was NO mention of business account versus personal account. They LIED.
Tom, I don't understand how evolution figures into the equation here, but if that's where you want to head with this - then, I don't feel they have evolved at all. They have debased themselves and resorted to sneaky tactics to create a gain for themselves. I would trust them less than an enraged ape - at least with an eraged ape - you have a pretty good idea of what he is going to do next.
They LIED.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:56:05 AMhcross: Don't know about others, but I have never gotten one thin dime in referral fees. Because I never asked for people to use me as a referral. That $5 they offer was not why I signed up.
PayPalDamon:Many are pointing to the negative, but many users would also state that the service has increased sales and offset costs due to the referral bonuses (which are continuing)
As I mentioned above, I've never jumped on the referral bandwagon. And no, my sales have not increased since I started paypal, nor have I received higher bids because of it. My sales have continued at the same rate as always. Now, the convenience of PayPal has meant that maybe a third of my buyers have opted to pay me that way, but that's it.
Frankly, for small part-time sellers like myself, there is no advantage in having a business account that I can see.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:02:34 AM
You don't have to do the automatic sweep, I do it once a day or once a week on my own, just as I did on the personal account, and I am not charged for it.
Finally got into my account, here is what I have paid in fees on a few transactions:
$20.50=.39
$26.61=.51
$23.50=.45
$40.84=.78
Here is what I have paid in Billpoint fees:
$40.36=$2.04
$17.09=$1.10
$13.25=.91
You do the math, seems simple to me who the best deal is. Heather
bunnicula I never asked anyone for a bonus either, people asked what Paypal was, I sent them a money request, if they liked it and signed up, I got a bonus, if they didn't like it, fine with me. Heather
posted on September 13, 2000 03:07:29 AM
Hcross..I made maybe $30 in referral bonuses...but then I did not push Paypal on my customers or try to get bonuses.
I was using billpoint before paypal came along. I signed up with paypal because their early push had buyers sending payments even if the seller was not a member.
Paypal has not increased the number of bids on my auctions nor has it increased the ending bid amounts. Most of the payments I get through paypal are under $30....buyers who buy high price items still seem to send checks, or use Billpoint. Plus billpoint accepts international sales.
If you find paypal a good deal, go for it. I personally find it a cheezy outfit who dances around the truth...bait and switch does accurately describe the actions of this company.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:28:44 AM
Hcross..I didn't assume anything about how you got the bonuses...I explained how I handled it. I was making no assumption about anyone else..but you are making an assumption that I was being derogatory towards you.
As for the math...the fees you quote for paypal is minus the 25 cent fee. Although it is not being charged now, in a few weeks it will be so the fees you are currently paying have to be adjusted for the new reality.
As for the sweep, I said for me to equal the service I get from billpoint I would need to compare an equal service from paypal..therefore I need to compare the 1.9%+0.6%+25 cents of paypal to what I currently pay billpoint...which is considerly less than the 3.9%+39 cents you appear to be paying billpoint.
For me the math is clear...billpoint is cheaper....may not be for you.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:44:07 AM
No matter what the Great and Powerful Paypaldamon says to us, this is a classic bait and switch operation...only one that may have not been intended at the beginning. The fact that merely clicking on the informational links on that one page will upgrade your account is the true measure of the bait and switch. And is probably very illegal.
It's just a last ditch effort to keep a failing business model afloat. Not enough money floating around there to keep the company in the black, so charge the people that help get that company in the black in the first place.
No matter how you look at it, we've been lied to...Paypal doesn't have the wherewithall to stick to it's guns and back up everything it has said in the past. The "free for personal transactions" line is a load of crap, since the whole company's business model was based on people using it for internet commerce, and internet auctions in particular.
If you can't keep it free for everyone who doesn't choose to upgrade to a wonderful "business" or "premier" account, then charge everyone the fees and be done with it.
I personally would like to thank Dave for posting the Paydirect link, which I will investigate later today. If it is as simple as it looks, I'm sure it will make a fine replacement for Paypal in my life.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:08:11 AM
I'm a small 'hobby' seller. The vast majority of my auctions end under $20.00 (most under $10). (I think I've had three auctions that ended over $20.)
I understand PayPal has to make money to stay in business. (I don't like the way they've gone about this though, I feel like I've been lied too.) But anyway, I'm not tremendously adverse to paying a fee (1.9%). But the extra fee for transactions under $10 really burns me. And the 1.9% is applied to the transaction amount, not the selling price (obviously). But that put's my total fees *WWAAAYYYY* above 1.9%.
I buy a book for $1.00 and sell for $5.00. Shipping is $2.00. (This is quite common for me.) My total fees will now be 39 cents (1.9% = 14 cents plus 25 cents). I realize 39 cents is not a lot of money but 39 cents divided by $4.00 profit ($5.00 sell price minus $1.00 cost) is almost 10 percent!!!
eBay fees are one thing - at least they provide a service that (in my estimation) can't be provided elsewhere. I don't need PayPal - checks worked fine for me for a long time.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:16:39 AM
I want to personally apologize to those who said, very early on in the game, that Paypal as it then existed could not last. Although I did qualify my Paypal-flag-waving at that time by saying that I didn't care whether it "wouldn't last" and would merely ride the Paypal horse as long as it was profitable for moi, I had NO idea, Pollyanna that I then was, that not only would fees eventually be charged, but that users would, during a period of less than 6 weeks, get handed a jar of Vaseline again, and again, and again, meanwhile being told that the - um, lube job was in our best interests and would make us incredibly popular.
Fortunately I saw the writing on the wall with the "verification" (uh huh) fiasco back on 8/3. At that time Paypal (and many optimistic users) reassured us repeatedly that this was in our "best interests" and was an "improvement" to services, and that the withdrawal authorization would never be misused, that verification was for X, not Y, ad nauseam.
During the ensuing 4 weeks Paypal changed its TOS - I think I count 3 times, but maybe I'm off by one or two. Although I pulled Paypal from my auctions and so accessed my account only a couple times during during that period, at no time when I logged in did I EVER get any message noting the changes. And of course I NEVER got an email about any of these "improvements."
Then Paypal added the "option" of paying from one's CC or bank account, surprising a number of people who didn't notice the default choice was "debit from my bank account". Again, no notice. Paypal's reaction? "Geez, what's the big deal? This is an IMPROVEMENT!"
Shortly thereafter Paypal changed its logos to those which did not comply with ebay's regs. Despite stated concerns from users that the logos were clearly NONcompliant and that auctions would be pulled as a result, Paypaldamon assured us SIX TIMES on this board alone that all was cool, that Paypal had checked out the situation with Ebay and Ebay said everything was fine. Within 3 days, he's posting "I made a mistake. Hey, I'm only human. Ebay's promised not to take any action." Oh, that's reassuring.
And now we find all that verification information is to be expanded upon, and that Paypal's assurances are again worthless. Is any statement from Paypal worth believing? Pull the other one, Damon.
Mind you, this has all occured since August 3 - six weeks. Taken individually, these truly bush-league shenanigans are pretty wild. Taken as a group, they say one thing: "RUN!"
And Paypal never did, doesn't, and never will get that it is merely an option. Nobody's sales hang on accepting Paypal. Since early August I've had a handful of bidders (themselves all sellers) ask why I don't accept Paypal. I've pointed them to these threads without comment. All of them have emailed me to thank me for the info and to let me know THEY are pulling Paypal from THEIR auctions because they, like me, are absolutely appalled at this astounding lack of business acumen.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice? Three times? Forget it.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Sep 13, 2000 04:18 AM ]
There is a selection there for cancelling your account. Or "Other" for ranting at the service reps.
I think the furor would be much less if the INTERNATIONAL PAYMENTS and the DEBIT CARDS and the SHOPPING CART were developed and working, but these three services have been promised for MONTHS (since I joined in February or March?) and have yet to show.
I just drained my account balance ... all $5 of it ... and sent a note via the contact page complaining that if the state and federal governments do not consider me a business, how can PayPal.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:47:36 AM
bunnicula said, "my sales have not increased since I started paypal, nor have I received higher bids because of it. My sales have continued at the same rate as always."
I've NEVER accepted online third-party payments and my sales have also remained consistent. In the past couple of weeks I've been considering adding the Paypal option, because I've used it a couple of times as a buyer and kind of liked the convenience. I'm certainly glad now that I haven't done it yet. I'll also think long and hard about whether I want to continue to use this service as a buyer (I probably will not). The lies and doublespeak have completely turned me off.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:54:22 AM
Back during the verification fiasco, I asked repeatedly of Damon what the REAL purpose of verifying a bank account was. His repeated response was ONLY to verify the identity of the user.
I then asked why, if this be the case, couldn't a user open a bank account for the sole purpose of verifying with PayPal, complete the verification process, and then remove the account from PayPal since it had served its' intended purpose (to verify the identity of the user).
I NEVER got a straight answer to this question. The only response that I got was that a verified bank account had to remain on file. I then asked why? The answer was so that the identity of the user could be verified. Huh???? The user's identity is verified the second that they enter the 2 small deposit amounts on the verification screen. For the purposes of user verification (according to PayPal's own language), the account is NO LONGER NEEDED after the verification process is complete.
I was ridiculed by a few posters here for being so persistant about asking Damon for the real reason for verification. It obviously wasn't JUST for verifying the user's identity, yet Damon and a few other sellers kept repeating that it was.
My point at that time was this: If a company handles "other peoples' money" as a course of business, that company MUST have the trust of the users. I was pleading for Payal to just be honest with the users about their intentions. They never did. And now this. So, let's see a show of virtual hands. How many of us posting on this thread TRUST PayPal to be honest with its' users now?
When PayPal offered business accounts, I upgraded within hours because I felt (and still do) that the 1.9% transaction fee was very reasonable. Besides, PayPal said they wouldn't charge a "flat" transaction fee, just the 1.9%. Now they have added the flat fees.
When PayPal announced the verification process (i.e. bank account verification), it seemed reasonable to me. I verified 2 of my bank accounts within hours. Then a few days later I started seeing conflicting statements regarding the verification process. That's when I started asking questions and getting the runaround.
PayPal says they will never access your bank account(s) without your explicit permission. Let's see a show of hands. How many posters on this board believe this (and trust PayPal and take them at their word)?
After my current auctions end, I will be closing my PayPal account. I will use Yahoo Paydirect and Ecount and checks, and money orders and cash and small multi-colored stones before I will use PayPal again.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:21:13 AM
I think I'm out too.
Most of the items I sell are small ticket under $10 and any more fees on the final value and I might as well "close up shop"
I'm just going to clean out the account today, let the remaining auctions with Paypal logo run and that's it. Finito. Most of my customers pay with checks or money orders anyways.
It was nice while it lasted but I'm not going to have any company dictate to me whether I am a seller or not when I really don't make any profit on the stuff I sell. According to the IRS I would be a hobby seller. And I'm certainly not going to let them lay a guilt trip on me by acting like I'm screwing them by not upgrading to their business account.
Bu-Bye Paypal!
*I think I'll even write up a nice little 'reasons why I don't accept PayPal' note for my auctions. The buyers can now thank PayPal for taking convenience away from them!
posted on September 13, 2000 05:27:18 AM
G'Day,
<P>Another disgruntled Paypal User. I just sent my email off to them expressing my anger and disappointment. Back to the Checks and Money Orders it is, worked for me for 2 years before Paypal and it will work now after Paypal.
<P>I do sell a lot and actively promoted Paypal both on my Auctions and personally to many eBay Users, both Buyers and Sellers. Now I feel I must apoligize to them for leading them to this Company that changes it's TOS every time it rains.
<P>Funny too I logged into Paypal twice and went to the Contact Us page on both, once after getting the Upgrade Page and once before it appeared. Part of the page is Top 5 FAQ's, well dang both Top 5 FAQ's are completely different~!~! So which are the REAL Top 5 FAQ's.
<P>Jeff
posted on September 13, 2000 05:29:17 AM
<<<If I put links to these threads in my auction listings, do you think eBay would pull my auctions? hmmmm....>>>>
Probably not. First of all, you'd have to get caught doing it. Secondly, some little dweeb over at Billpoint is probably rubbing his hands together greedily thinking disgruntled PayPal users are probably going to come to them(Billpoint) now so they'll let it ride for a while.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:41:54 AM
Just my opinion:
1) Businesses change their policies all the time. While I don't like the changes, I'm not going to whine about it.
2) I'm sure most of you have already investigated alternatives. IMO, paypal is still the cheapest method of accepting Visa/MC. Their application is no more intrusive than a merchant account app.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:48:58 AM
Was it Colson of Watergate fame who had the saying over his desk, "When you've got them by the balls their minds and hearts will follow."
Think about it, if the service hadn't been touted as "always free" Paypal wouldn't have grown, now that it has what it considers a captive audience it pulls this crap.
Dave,
How and where do you find the Yahoo Pay Direct links to put on the auctions? I have an account and got a letter in the mail for verification. I have an awful time finding anything on the Yahoo site. Thanks.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:52:21 AM
Yankeejoe:
The cost of PayPal's service is a bargain, even with the added flat rate transaction fees. This is not the issue.
The issue is PayPal's lack of honesty in their dealing with their customers.
Do you really want a company that lies to you handling your money and accessing your bank account at will?
I agree that we need to accept credit cards. And I will. Let's see, there's Yahoo Paydirect, BidPay, and even Billpoint. Yes, Billpoint is expensive. They use bullying tactics. But as far as I know, they have never lied to their users.
To put it simply, I don't want a company that can't tell the truth handling my money and accessing my bank account.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:58:22 AM
Just checked into Yahoo PayDirect, it is free but this is what they have.......
Fees: There is no fee for creating and using your Yahoo! PayDirect account. In the future, transaction fees may apply, but you will be notified before they are put into effect.
Sounds to me as if they also are going to lure people in and then change the fee schedule in a few months.
Hopefully Damon will come thru for us because I am with RitchieRich, I LOVE getting paid using PayPal. I don't know that I LOVE it enough to pay for it. I sell but mostly low cost items. Can't afford to lose anymore money.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:59:15 AM
Abingdon...
I would think that accessing my bank account is a whole different ball of wax than changing my rate structure. Besides, I'm using an x.com account which I empty daily. Still, I don't think there's anything in paypal's agreement to allow them to take money out.
