posted on September 13, 2000 06:01:04 AM
I knew it was going to happen sooner or later. I've been saying this for months. I joined Paypal very early on & enjoyed their great free service. The debate here would be how would Paypal survive...anyone remember those debates. Some didn't joined Paypal for fear that it might crumble in 4 days & lose all their money.
As I've said it before, its ony business that when they have enough customers that they will start charging fees. Let me put it this way, if your eBay sales suddenly jump & you have to hire workers to help you pack etc., you would probably start charging handling fees or raise your price to accomodate for the rising overheads (I assume you plan to pay your workers).
Now as a user, you have the option just as when we had this discussion about if Paypal is a fraud or not & you don't have to use it. Yeah you might (I said might) lose customers but that's your decision. Just like when we had that discussion about accepting Canadian orders or accepting personnal checks. Look no one is pointing the gun at your head & asking you to bark thrice. I am sure like everyone else, I will have to reevaluate Paypal from the Profit standpoint. If there is a reliable & cheaper service out there other than Paypal be it Billpoint or heck if Bill Gates want to join the bandwagon, I might have to reconsider. As much as you think I am a cheer leader for Paypal...I am a bigger cheerleader for Comic123. But please for Aunt Marie's sake, quit whinning.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:04:47 AM
Thank goodness for this board. I feel for sellers who don't know these boards exist with information that is very helpful.
I took a couple weeks off listing but had money in my Paypal account which I used up completely two days ago (good thing). However, I got back to listing and those auctions ended last night. I haven't received any replies yet on those so dont know if anyone plans on paying through Paypal. After I receive payments from these bidders, then I will close my Paypal account (sooner if no one uses Paypal).
I listed a few auctions Tuesday night. The ones that haven't gotten bids, I went back and removed the Paypal logo and mention in my TOS. I don't think dropping Paypal will make my sales drop. The past two months, nearly all my buyers have paid by personal check.
I am disappointed in this entire change of events but I will survive using MO's and personal checks. I have this long!
posted on September 13, 2000 06:05:23 AM
I don't know what exactly is going on with paypal but am going to watch very cautiously over the next couple of weeks. I think paypal needs to define exactly what you need to do before you qualify as a seller. I think there ar very few people out there who can honestly say they haven't sold something on ebay at some timeor another. I average about 20 auctions a month on a good month. Especially when I get in a cleaning mood and suddenly decided to get rid of some of the "treasures" my family has sent myself and my children as gifts recently. I am not going to close my paypal account immediately but am going to stop offering it in any auction until this is resolved. Looking ovr my history in paypal right now, I can see that in 30 days, I have received 2 payments and sent payments off 4 times. Does this make me a seller or a personal account? If you can't receive any money without becoming a seller account what good is a personal account? Does this mean in the future all premier and business accounts are going to have to start paying to put money into their account also? Right now no one is getting charged to deposit money just when they receive it. So of course personal account are always going to be free, they aren't receiving any money.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:14:50 AM
I believe Chuck also said: "I'd run my car over my grandmother for Richard Nixon!" A true sweetheart who underwent a jail-house "enlightenment!"
[ edited by tomwiii on Sep 13, 2000 06:15 AM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 06:17:26 AM
yankeejoe:
PayPal's "agreement" is subject to change without prior notice as we have all seen. And you're right, PayPal's fee structure is different from their access to your account. But the underlying lack of honesty is common to both. And if you think PayPal can't (or won't) access your account when they feel the need, you are sadly mistaken. What is in their worthless user agreement is beside the point.
Anyone with your bank account number and bank routing number can initiate an ACH transfer from your account WITHOUT your permission at any time. And given PayPal's history of being less than honest, do you really think they wouldn't do it if they felt it in their best interest?
posted on September 13, 2000 06:21:16 AM
[i]Just checked into Yahoo PayDirect, it is free but this is what they have.......
Fees: There is no fee for creating and using your Yahoo! PayDirect account. In the future, transaction fees may apply, but you will be notified before they are put into effect.[/i]
Yes, and they're being upfront about it. They must have been reading these PayPal threads...
posted on September 13, 2000 06:28:48 AM
sorry abingdoncomputers! I have no idea who I was talking too - maybe even the wrong thread.
Regarding Paydirect, and these threads, Yahoo statement about charging in the future is standard for them - and predates Paypal. They say the same thing about their auctions. My point is that Yahoo is not behaving because Paypal is in trouble, they are behaving because that is what they do. Credit where credit is due. My strong suspicion with all things Yahoo, is that by the time they finally start charging for *whatever* people will happily pay.
Time will tell, but that's my bet and my money's where my mouth is.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:31:32 AM
Im sure some of you will remember me.. PayPal restricted my account because ,by thier notice the must verify people in "certain areas" Well the were not the brightest bulbs in the box and sent me my money anyway... in spite of my lack of access to my account. The checks cleared and Im fine and dandy.
Now its my turn: I TOLD YOU SO!
What fools will be lied to over and over again and still use a business? PayPal fools... You hope for the best and get screwed.
PAyPal WILL access your verified accounts, they WILL take your money, they WILL restrict you accounts. What cant you see?? How many times will you be lied to? How many lines will Damon use? Hes changed his story more times than I can count. He contradicts himself and written PayPal policy, He is a PR guy plain and simple. He is damage control! Wake up!
Here is what I did.
I removed paypal from my 130 auctions a day.
I offered free shipping
I raised my prices to cover that
I send a note in my confirmation mails explaining the PayPal situation
I upgrade shipping to anyone who has a concern about the speed of not useing paypal
MY sales have skyrocketed!
YOU do not need PayPal
YOU can survive.
YOU can relax and not watch the boards for policy changes
YOU can kiss PayPal goodbye.
really.. you can....
posted on September 13, 2000 06:37:14 AM
When I first signed up for Yahoo PayDirect I sent an query to the crackerjack eBay support team and asked if was ok to do Yahoo PayDirect on eBay.
In the ususal nonresponse response manner I got a reply that didn't answer my question ie, yes or no. What I got was an explanation that PayDirect was a payment option like Billpoint and Paypal. I assumed that it was ok since eBay didn't say no. I think it would be ok as long as you don't present it as a link to Yahoo auctions per se, only to a payment option. But you can never tell with eBay either..
posted on September 13, 2000 06:40:00 AM
G'Day Again,
I pay for what I need... I NEED my ISP to sell online so I pay, I NEED eBay as an Auction Site to list my Items so I pay, I DON'T NEED Paypal to accept money so I WON'T pay.
<P>Paypal claims: By accepting Credits Cards with Paypal you get more bids and better prices. Well in my personal experience almost none of the folks that buy my Medium or Big Ticket Items (100.00 - 2000.00) use Paypal. In the last month out of 84 Paypal Payments 8 were over 100.00 and 3 of those were from Multiple Sales.
<P>Paypal Claims: Get Paid Fast. Well if I get paid by Paypal I then have to wait 3-4 days for electronic transfer. Since I usually waited till I had a good amount (1,500 or more)before doing the Electronic Transfer it was MUCH Longer before I had the money in Hand. Generally I can get a Check/MO from California (I am in NH) in 3-4 days, so actually I have the Money in my hands quicker then when using PayPal.
<P>So basically I get charged for the convience of the Buyer to make a payment with a Credit Card with no added benefits to me. Well let the Buyer pay for the convience, Checks and MO's worked fine for me and looks like they will do so again.
Jeff
posted on September 13, 2000 06:42:56 AM
For those concerned about Yahoo charging "next week", let me tell you, I hang around there a lot and they have a history of being creative, innovative and applying LONG term vision. I seriously doubt that you will witness them turn on a dime.
Consider that they are an entire different operation than paypal and have a host of alternative ways to make money.
- for example....
I would pay $5 a month in 2 seconds to use their site. Heck yeah. For their email, their stock boards, their paydirect, their auctions, their messenger, complete with free domestic long distance, and on and on and on.
Now.. Multiply $5 by their user base, or even assume that each user has 10 id's and this is still a whole lot of money.
Would I pay $10?
Yep.
We know that the best predictor of the future is the past. Paypal has shown their colors and Yahoo has shown theirs. Watch and see.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:06:08 AM
dave_michmerhuizen
Yahoo's PAYDIRECT is free now, but if I recall when I signed up for it, there were no promises of it being free forever.
ALSO, although I have PAYDIRECT, no one has ever used it, and I have only had one customer use eBay's BillPoint. ALL OF MY customers that are paying through a 3rd party use PAYPAL.
I was transferring funds from PayPal yesterday and didn't get the message, and am not verified, but run 2 or 3 grand a month through them.
I don't mind upgrading, I think PayPal promised FREE for personal accounts, not business accounts. Those I hear screaming now are doing business and want to do it for free - I would suspect that many don't want to file the business information because many don't have resale tax numbers, etc., and aren't reporting sales to the IRS.
We also have our own Merchant's account, but with the new rules from Visa/MC, I prefer to have my on line payment come through PayPal - I like PayPal because there is an obvious, written records for both the buyer and seller to see at all times. When there is a controversy it is so EASY to quickly check the records.
Whether you sell $10 a month of $10,000, selling for profit is business - it isn't a matter of semantics - you are doing it for profit therefore regardless of your size you are conducting a business.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:10:21 AM
Uh....Dave....:
Fees
There is no fee for creating and using your Yahoo! PayDirect account. In the future, transaction fees may apply, but you will be notified before they are put into effect.
Just so no one comes crying later when PayDirect starts charging...... . For those using PayDirect who have used PayPal in the past--have you noticed that bidders are more/less comfortable and likely to use it?
[ edited by pickersangel on Sep 13, 2000 07:35 AM ]
[ edited by pickersangel on Sep 13, 2000 07:44 AM ]
[ edited by pickersangel on Sep 13, 2000 07:45 AM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 07:18:59 AMdave_michmerhuizen Dave, I have signed up with paydirect. However, the thing that I do NOT like about them is that the money is paid to your credit card on file! If I wish to get my money that was paid to my credit card (I carry NO balances) then I have to PAY the credit card 5% for the cash withdrawl each time I take MY money! I do NOT like that either! Did I read something wrong? Can I actually have my money from PayDirect put directly into my checking account?
posted on September 13, 2000 07:21:32 AM
One thing not mentioned with those stating that PAYPAL woudl ALWAYS BE FREE.. is that Paypal basically ADVERTISED to the ebay auction world... I remmeber them reassureing the auction sellers that it would always be free.
Many of those sellers believing in them convinced and spent time answering questions and helping others learn how to use paypal and how to overcome some situations. I remember others stating it was promised to remain free. I said at time that I would quit the minute they charged. (not sure if i still will or not)
I know others that like myself left money in for several days to help Paypal earn float.
They HELPED paypal grow. referral bucks CHEAP ADVERTISING in any marketers book.
that they have to change their tune is sad...that they aren't taking responsiblity by saying I'm sorry or grandfathering in previous agreements is even sadder.
I have no plans to upgrade at this point I may just quit auctioning all together.. Heck I can get money from my stuff by garage saleing and networking with others. may e less money but then how much do i get if every company wants a cut of 1.5 percent. Ebay then paypal etc. Yahoo with no fees is looking better and better. even with less bidders. Of course more sellers there more bidders there as many that sell do buy too!
It may be a cost of doing biz and I don't think the rates are unreasonable its just that I signed on to a FREE service that I don't use very much. I was told it would be free forever because of float.
I guess I'll be calling Paypal. but i don't have much leverage cause they'd make about 5-20 bucks a year from me
posted on September 13, 2000 07:24:32 AM
I have both. I got a business account when they became available and I kept the personal. I use the business account for business and I pay all my taxes and keep records so that is no problem. I will use the personal to buy items for my own use that have nothing to do with the business and to be paid if I sell something personal I have owned for some time and did not buy for resale. If they don't trust me to kepp them seperate they may end up without either account.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:28:47 AM
I have a verified Premier account. I'm not getting any kind of message, and I have enough money coming in that if PayPal is screening accounts, they'd have tagged this as a "seller's account". Maybe this issue should be addressed over on the PayPal.com board in Partner Services? I just checked that board, and there's no mention of this issue. I'm surprised paypaldamon hasn't already responded, unless he's still trying to get the info as to what's going on.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:48:16 AM
Now macandjan might be on the right track with having 2 accounts. BTW how do you like the Business Account. Any better or any worst & what do you think of the fees. Can you get a better deal some where else?.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:59:35 AM
I want to know why we haven't heard from AW on this issue?
After all they were the ones to introduce us to the service(or at least AW introduced me to it).
It was introduced as a FREE service for FAST & EASY transactions between Auction SELLERS & BUYERS.
All this bull-pucky about "business" and "personal" accounts(person to person).
Well FOR CRYING OUT LOUD......any kind of transaction has to be PERSON TO PERSON.
I will say this again.
From here on out ALL my customers are MY FRIENDS...I will be exchanging my goods for their money. They will GIVE me money and I will GIVE them my goods.
NO BUSINESS EXCHANGE GOING ON HERE!
If they decide to hold my money HOSTAGE until I upgrade, I will be joining any and ALL PayPal smear campains and lawsuits.
Lets hear from AUCTION WATCH on this issue!
Going now to see if I can find the original thread of the promised FREE service and a $20.00 referal bonus.
posted on September 13, 2000 08:23:14 AM
Damon: For some it is the fees. For me it isn't. I believe in paying for services. It is the intent and perception.
Tomwiii put it best, every Internet company seems to screw the very people who make the company what it is.
Lemme ask you. Do you believe that Paypal could tout 3M members if it hadn't been for eBay sellers doing the PR work and getting people to sign up? True a lot got fees, but the average cost for an internet company to get a customer is $18.00. So PayPal paid the $$ to the eBay sellers rather than a company like Doubleclick. A bargain for PayPal and without a doubt greater results and in a shorter period of time than an ad campaign. So don't try to go there...
Now the line is if you have a business we are offering a cut rate on fees, how can you complain. When Paypal offered free services to eBay users Paypal knew most of these people were sellers, there was no epiphany in a Board room one day. No one stood up and said "All of these auction sellers are in reality businesses, how could we have missed it!"
What I want to know from PayPal is how this new you must have a business account is going to fit into the new regs coming out from Visa,( and I think MasterCard), that online transaction must be completed through "approved portals" or some such that I don't really understand, and the coincidence ? that Paypal is an approved portal. What is this all about and how will it relate to the next lead weighted boot falling?
One other thing, do yourself a big favor and don't use the word functionality.
posted on September 13, 2000 08:24:52 AM
Just surfing through after a long night. Wow! What a scene. Excuse the rambling...
With this latest step, it seems this was Paypal's plan all along. When I joined, there was no personal vs. business account. There was only one type of account, and it was "always free." The very idea that Paypal is now accusing us of non-compliance is shocking.
I agree this is a classic "bait and switch." I'm amazed at the chutzpah to suggest that we be "honest" and "play by the rules." Paypal could have had my business for 1.9% and no complaints. But now they have lied to me and are continuing to lie. Forgetaboutit!
I take my business seriously. If I feel my partner is being dishonest I will not deal with that partner. Who knows what Paypal will do next? They've got access to my checking account. I would never have believed they would just go in and take my money, but now who knows? I will no longer offer the Paypal option in my ads or accept payments via Paypal. It was nice while it lasted, and again, I wouldn't mind paying, but I won't do business with someone I know is lying to me.
I feel like Little Red Riding Hood in the story. I've got my little basket of goodies, trying to make it to grandmother's house across the woods. And along the way, all I meet are wolves (in the form of big corporations) trying to cut themselves in for a slice of the pie. Yes, $.25 or $.35 is a big deal when I sell 100 $10 items a week. eBay sucks, but I have to deal with them. Add in Paypal and Billpoint and U-Pic and eBud and everybody else ... well I'm not going to carry them all. HEY, I'M NOT YOUR MONEY TREE!
"We make our money off the float!" Well, float THIS!
posted on September 13, 2000 08:31:04 AM
I have had about 12-15 buyers pay with Paydirect - I signed on the first day.
Yes you can have your funds deposited into your checking acct, and it takes same time as paypal - you must complete the procedure to activate the option ACH..
posted on September 13, 2000 08:35:19 AM
I have edited all my sales ending next week to remove references to pay pal. Plus altered my template used to list to delete the pay pal line. End of this month I will request a check to effectively close out the account, except for one cent left in just to mess around with their mind.
posted on September 13, 2000 08:35:22 AM
Wow, another thread where it's ok if MY business makes money, but let another business want to make money and let the whinning begin.
It's too bad that Paypal had to start charging for their service, but now that bidders are hooked to the use, will it not affect your auctions that no longer accept paypal?
I personally never used it and will never use it, because of the bounty money, but I know some of my friends love using credit cards to pay their auctions with.
Ain't Life Grand...
[ edited by twelvepole on Sep 13, 2000 08:37 AM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 08:38:47 AM
I just received a PayPal payment for an auction that closed yesterday. The last line of the PayPal email says:
Thank you for using PayPal, a free service of X.com!
Hey PayPal.... You need to change that!
This was a payment made with the auction tools, as it has the item #, shipping info, etc.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:00:44 AM
I don't think anybody would be complaining if, from the outset, PayPal had said "our services are free for buyers, and sellers will be charged a small percentage and transaction fee."
I don't think anybody would be complaining if, from the outset, PayPal had said "our services are free for buyers, and will always be free for buyers, and for a limited time our services will also be free for sellers."
Unfortunately, what PayPal actually said was simply "our services are free and will remain free." There was no distinction made between buyers and sellers. None. Then, they said they would be offering "premium" and "business" accounts which would offer additional services for a fee, but that signing up for one of these accounts would be wholly optional. Anybody who wanted these extra services could sign up and pay a fee, but nobody was required to if they didn't want those extra services. And now, PayPal is saying that ANYONE WHO SELLS [regardless of how much or how often] is a "business" and is expected [required?] to sign up for either a business or a premium account.
For shame, PayPal! Not for charging a fee for your services, but for lying to people about those fees. For telling people from the beginning that there would be NO fees, and then trying to weasel out of it by now saying that you were really only talking about person to person transactions and not e-commerce. You actively sought out and courted eBay SELLERS and told them that they would not be charged for your services. You never said "unless, of course, you are a seller, in which case there will eventually be some fees".
I can understand that it is difficult [or perhaps even impossible] to run PayPal under the current business plan with no fees. And it's too late to go back in time and change the promises you made. But don't compound things by flat out lying to your customers. Why not try being honest and simply say that things aren't working out the way you had hoped, there isn't enough income to keep things going, and that you have been forced to start charging a modest fee for sellers. I'm sure a lot of people would still complain, but it's better than being lied to again and again.
Shame on you!
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Sep 13, 2000 09:04 AM ]
. For those using PayDirect who have used PayPal in the past--have you noticed that bidders are more/less comfortable and likely to use it?
