I don't expect to get something for nothing, and I certainly don't begrudge a business for trying to make enough of a profit to stay afloat. Are PayPal's new fees unreasonable? Certainly not. But the thing that I [and many others] can't abide is being lied to.
Had PayPal said up front that sellers wouldn't be charged for the time being and that fees would be instituted at a later time, nobody would be complaining now. Instead, they said "PayPal will be free forever".
Well, OK. Things change, and plans don't always work out the way we want them to. Maybe PayPal PLANNED on offering their services free to everyone forever [hey, it's possible], but have since discovered that it's no longer possible to do so. I can deal with that, and had PayPal said "we hoped to offer our services free to everyone forever, but we have determined that we can no longer stay afloat unless we start charging sellers a fee" I'm sure very few people would now be complaining. Instead, PayPal says "oh, we never said our services would be free for EVERYBODY -- just for 'person to person transactions'. Oh, and by the way, anybody who sells anything anywhere cannot be considered a "person" under this definition...."
I can accept "we were wrong and we'll have to change the way we do things". I can't accept being lied to. It has nothing to do with how much these new fees are, or how great the other services being provided are. It doesn't even have anything to do with them making a promise they were eventually unable to keep. But it has EVERYTHING to with them flat out LYING when asked recently about whether all sellers would be required to register for a "business" account, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the way they now are trying to say that this is what they "really" meant all along ["we didn't change anything -- you just misunderstood us is all...."]
I don't mind paying a fair price for good service, but I can't stand being LIED to.
Regards,
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Sep 13, 2000 11:05 AM ]
I will have a post in the partner services forum regarding business account.. As a note, we do not have advertising banners on our site for clickthroughs.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:12:30 PM
I haven't used any of the online payment options, but am surprised at the hysteria.
Been off for a few days doing a small freelance shoot.
These clients got a "free" deal on location. Then they were told they couldn't use it after a certain time of day for "free" after we'd set up. Delayed shooting for over an hour while the producer raged into his cell phone. Would have been easier to have paid the rate than what it cost him to pay all of us standing around for that hour! LOL
I say factor it into your auctions. It still looks cheaper than a merchant account.
If you think you have been lied to, cheated etc then why not boycott them?
Let your real power do the talking!
Okay, that's me.
And I agree with Adrian and Yisgood.
I have a pile of expenses for my work...demo tapes, equipment upgrades, biz cards, checking account, accountant, messaging service, cell phone...anyhow you get the picture...
Ebay is cheap overhead for me by comparison for the profit margin.
One last thing...I have worked for a lot of start ups in customer service. Letmetellyou...
Many will promise the stars and moon to get a customer base. Some cut back to just a trip to a tall mountain! Others suffer trying to keep up good appearances.
Many of them couch terms so enthusiastically that it takes a lot of work to spin new info well enough to keep even the most loyal clients happy.
Okay...going to list some auctions.
Capriole (not Capriole on ebay just here)
posted on September 13, 2000 02:35:25 PM
It does cost money to run a business.
I'm still trying to figure out this uproar today.
If anyone has an original copy of any user agreement that said BUSINESS accounts would be free, I'd like to see it.
The business account at PayPal is cheaper than my merchant account.
I do believe the original agreement was for 'person to person' and still is free, not for a business account, because there wasn't any 'business accounts' when PayPal started.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:05:51 PM
It's not about fees, it's about honesty.
But on the issue of free stuff- when it comes to some financial arrangements, there ARE free things. This is so becuase financial institutions can earn money from your funds they hold, and from other services.
I have 3 free checking accounts at my Credit Union. Better than free, really, because they are interest bearing. No charge for each check I write- no monthly fee, no minimum. And they offer other free stuff, too.
So, it wasn't unreasonable for folks, seeing PayPal's promotions to auction sellers: "Always Safe, Always Free" to belive them.
PayPal knew it was marketing to auction sellers when it offered the service "Always Free." They focused on auction sellers, as evidenced by their auction payment functions, their auction logos, and their persistent presence on these boards, and their partnerships with auction service providers. They knew full well that most of thier users were auction sellers. And they proclaimed: "Free Forever."
Then they add a new product, but still said as recently as June 13: "No user will be forced to upgrade to a business account." On this board. An auction board.
Well, now it appears they have lied.
The solution:
GRANDFATHER existing users in- under the initial promises. Apologize. A lot. And add international sales to the Premium/Business accounts ASAP, so folks will choose to upgrade.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:12:13 PM
Oh, I see.
PayPaldamon only has time and energy to respond to kudos. Not to the valid complaints on the other threads.
Brings back memories of EBAY "live support" board, during the big crashes of yore.
They always managed to find just enough time to recognize their suporters too. Everybody else got the old "Clear your Cache". Or ignored.
I've already read PayPals equivalent to "Clear your Cache".
posted on September 13, 2000 03:12:19 PM
ShellyHerr..that is the point..there was no business account at first and NO MENTION THERE EVER WOULD BE ONE....businesses (we ebay sellers) were courted with promises of always free...always means for now and into the future, forever and ever...it doesn't mean "until we get you hooked then we will turn the promises on their head"
I personally felt all along paypal was going to need to charge for it's services...but when asked, paypal told us "no, no, don't worry about it, we will make our money on the float, we will never charge to send or receive money"...they did NOT qualify it with "unless you are a business".
Paypal courted the sellers by telling us how convenient, and FREE, it was to accept auction payments using their services. they said, originally, that accepting payment from our buyers using paypal would be ALWAYS FREE.
It's all about trust, honesty and ethics here. And Paypal seems to be at the bottom of the heap when it comes to all three.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:13:59 PM
magazine_guy-I have a free checking account too. But this isn't about your banks checking account, its about being able to accept customers credit cards.
I still see no deception or lies. A personal
PayPal account is free, and they did Not Have Business Accounts when PayPal began, or started, and said all the free stuff... sure your personal account is free, your customers are not being charged, the fee's, of what I have seen for this business account are pretty good.
I still can't see where your going to be grandfathered into anything?
posted on September 13, 2000 03:20:45 PM
amy with all respect to you too, the personal PayPal accounts are still free. Haven't they been talking, and people (sellers) upgrading to business accounts before today? Yes. And they were being charged too, like a merchant account, but, what I think, is cheaper than one.
Now, today, everyone is clearing out thier accounts, and tearing down PayPal banners, or adding in their auctions: due to Sept 13 announcement of fees...... but hasn't everyone known about the business accounts BEFORE today?
posted on September 13, 2000 03:40:36 PM
First, I'd like to know where all those PayPal RULES! people are today?
Secondly, Adrian, you have guts! And for those who look at ebay AS their business, this is just another business expense to be factored in, like an increase in postal rates or increased gasoline prices.
The PayPal PERSONAL account is STILL free. It's the PayPal business account that isn't & PayPal has taken a business move to get those who have been using their PERSONAL account for business purposes to move to the correct place.
You can scream they LIED to you, but maybe you just didn't want to see the truth..the information on the business accounts has been there for a while. I suspect some just thought they could continue to use their personal account when they should have been using a business account.
Guess those of us who went ahead & signed on with BillPoint don't look so crazy now. And the PayPal business account is still a very good deal compared with BillPoint & a GREAT deal compared with CCNow.
All in all, the customer rules. They don't care that the seller has to pay fees, they just want the convenience. I suspect a number of closed accounts will quietly be reopened when customers start demanding it.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:52:22 PM
I betcha they will re open them, if they do close them.
And then there are threads asking which sites are free now; payme payplace
Like those will stay free too?
Nothing is free, eBay is not free. ISP's are not free. Computers aren't free. But they are still letting a personal account free, that is for your customer, and that is going to make your customer happy, and that is going to be one deciding factor on whether your customer is going to bid. Buyers only, why should they pay? they shouldn't, and they don't. Thats why they like PayPal, and thats why I like PayPal.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:13:56 PM
When I signed up with PayPal last December, there was no "business" account. There was no "personal" account. There was only one kind of account --- and it was labeled "always free."
Then, when business accounts were added, PayPal representatives on this board assured us that no one would be forced to "upgrade."
PayPal has lied.
Where will the cheerleaders be when PayPal starts dipping into your "verified" bank accounts for chargebacks? (After repeated promises that it won't withdraw funds without your permission.)
My money says that's next.
Sure, PayPal's cheaper than a merchant account (for now). But I'm willing to pay that extra 0.4% to know my fees and conditions, in great detail, UP FRONT.
And that's more than I'm getting from PayPal.
You see, it's really NOT about the fees. It's about TRUST, HONESTY AND CREDIBILITY.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:40:04 PM
I would suggest on items under $10, where you are operating on a very small margin, that the fee be passed along to the buyer. Simply state in your auction that there will be a $.25 charge for using PayPal, as that is what PayPal charges you. After all, the buyer is still saving money order fees and the price of a stamp.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:47:59 PM
burntstore,
ebay does not allow the passing of credit card charges on to customers. In fact, it's against both the rules of the credit card agencies & state law in several states, including California.
You can increase your starting fee, you can add a handling fee but you will be out on a BIG limb if you directly charge for any type of fee which is a result of a credit card transaction.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:58:50 PM
"Exactly how does your merchant account handle chargebacks?"
eventer
My merchant account handles chargebacks by taking the money from my account.
But my merchant service made this clear up front, nothing hidden, no promises not meant to be kept. It was made clear BEFORE I signed on.
PayPal keeps saying it won't take money from your verified checking account without your explicit permission.
That's the current promise. I'm betting future actions will be the opposite.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:23:19 PM
since when are statements like at this time paypal has no plan for fees.
equal to a lie now that this is the future and they do have plans for a fee.
fact is to make money you must spend money to be in business you must make profit pluss to stay in that business.
there is no Despetion here at all exsept for them who were deceived in there own minds.
paypal gave every man and women in the USA who wanted it to grow a business with the abilty of takeing credit card payments not nearly free but totally free no $400 to $1000 up front and .35 or .55 cent per sale or no 35% of each sale not just virtauly free but absolutely free to them up untill now something 98% would never have had or tried if it wasnt for them.
now that most have had a year or more free to build there slaes and businesses they ask you to put your .02 cents worth in to keep them running you cry foul play.
well for the many many who though they could do business free for ever I think 99% wont be in it 1 more year.
Why well here is why #1 paypal wont be free you will pay 2 to 4 % of all sales postage will be up from $320 to $485 for 1lbs of good shipped and more.
ebay will be chargeing listing and finial value fees . packageing will be going up inflation is not as in check as all would have you beleave when the election is over the real picture will start to be seen and not as glossed over as it is now.
when the unemployment rises competition is going to rise in these sales many more will take a big chace and give ebay a 6 month to 1 year shot full time.
guess what the people willing to spend money to make money will still be here in two years when all the cards are dealt and the game has been played out the ones who looked at reality and paid the dues will still be here.
Actually, I don't much care if it violates the rules of credit credit card agencies, as I don't have an account with any of them - my account is with PayPal. But, if you say eBay doesn't doesn't allow this, then I better not do it.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:47:21 PM
For months, people have taken advantage of paypal and flaunted about and encouraged others, to empty their accounts daily. Doing that helped to bring these changes, just that much sooner. People took from paypal and gave nothing back.
No, I'm not happy with the way they have gone about this, but I knew it was coming. how many of you left a significant balance in your account for any period of time?
cariad
posted on September 13, 2000 08:16:35 PM
Shellyherr and eventer: Good to see others that share my viewpoint. First paypal was going to freeze money in the accounts if you did not upgrade, and now they will be "dipping" into our accounts for chargebacks.
There is a serious case of mass hysteria going on right now, if you don't like it, close your account. But, I bet some of you will come back. Class action lawsuits? Ridiculous. If you were using your account as a personal account when you knew damn good and well it was business then you are wrong, it was you who was dishonest and who lied, not Paypal.
Grandfathered in? Get real. Paypal has evolved several times the last 6 months, this was a natural progression. Imagine the outcry if Paypal had gone under when everyone was taking advantage of the services, sure would have been a different story then. Heather
posted on September 13, 2000 09:05:16 PM
cariad, you are wrong. PayPal took from us, we did not take from PayPal. PayPal deceived us and used us to build its business. These new accounts are priceless and are perhaps the most important part in valuing this type of business; profits are not important in the short-term here. Its through all these users that we attracted that has made PayPal a player in the on-line financial services industry. Trust me this company will cash out by selling the business or taking it public which was made possible only by us. They are going to get rich through this deception which some have likened to a pyramid scheme. Would we have really have put all these logos in our auctions and encouraged users if we knew the service was not free, if we knew we would only receive the referral bonuses if the new user verified a bank account, if we knew the service cost only slightly less than other services, I doubt it. Don't forget it, we were taken from!
If you were using your account as a personal account when you knew damn good and well it was business then you are wrong, it was you who was dishonest and who lied, not Paypal.
I would have to take exception w/this. When I signed up, they didn't have a business account.
I admit, I got the email in June, watched the AW threads on it & when PayPalPaul stated in there that running 30 or less payment through would basically be a personal account, I didn't think I needed to switch.
Apparently, now, I'm wrong. But I don't feel I was either dishonest or lied. Now that I know what they consider a business, I'll be switching to the correct account.
Call me cynical but I always felt the day would come when this would no longer be a free service but I just think many people read what they wanted to read & thought what they wanted to think rather than take a closer look at the handwriting on the wall.
Sorry, I'm just not one of those that thought they would really respect me in the morning.
BUT, it HAS been a PR nightmare & whoever came up with dropping this bombshell like this should be summarily fired.
I think it will be interesting to see how the sellers who really pitched PayPal to their customers & got them used to it are now going to explain that PayPal's bad & they shouldn't use it.
The bulk of the customer's aren't going to care that the seller has to pay the fees, they just want the ease & convenience of using it. Talk about peer pressure..customer pressure will be what brings some of those closed accounts back to open status.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:38:19 PM
How about making profit fairly??? Sucking people in with a free service, getting them used to it and allowing the a taste of some success using it then, BAM, tack on some fees! Similar to a bait and switch tactic, and very illegal! I'd drop this unethical company in a flash when I get a letter forcing me to upgrade.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:43:44 PMeventer You are right on every single point, almost. No, they did not have business accounts when I signed up either, but it was made clear in June what we were expected to do. I find no fault with Paypal for what they are doing.
"Call me cynical but I always felt the day would come when this would no longer be a free service but I just think many people read what they wanted to read & thought what they wanted to think rather than take a
closer look at the handwriting on the wall." The most accurate statement of this whole fiasco, you are very smart.
I truly do not see what people are so worked up about, this is business if we expect Paypal to make it, we need to buck up and pay for it. Anyone who thought they were going to get a free ride forever is a fool. Paypal's whole model changed in June, notice that all the hysteria did not start then, as you say the handwriting has been on the wall for quite sometime.
I was not implying you were dishonest, I hope that is not what you think. I can see why people waited, I also should have waited until they came out with the debit cards before I switched, I have been paying them fees for nothing the last 3 months. There is no excuse to wait and upgrade the accounts if they know they are operating as a business, and that could not be any clearer than today's announcement. I think they tried to find the easiest way possible of notifying people, how many people missed it today? Some people just go through life without reading all the fine print, now it has bit them in the butt and they don't appreciate it. Heather
[ edited by hcross on Sep 13, 2000 09:45 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 09:49:15 PM
How about paying for what you are supposed to pay for if you are a business? Business accounts and requirements were announced long ago, this should not come as a suprise. Heather
I was not implying you were dishonest, I hope that is not what you think
No, I wasn't thinking that. When I read the June announcement, I didn't get a clear impression it was necessary for me & I suspect a lot of other people didn't either.
I don't think we meant to be "dishonest", I just think PayPal didn't make the delineation clearer.
You have to admit, clarity in their statements is not one of PayPal's assets.
You can only get SUCKED into something if you WANT to get sucked into something. There has been thread after thread about how PayPal has changed since it started & many posters have warned the day was coming when it would no longer be free. We were often shouted down & called cynical fools.
I'm sorry people are upset & I'm sorry they feel they were betrayed & lied to but I just don't feel that to be the case for me. I felt like I knew it was coming, so I'm neither surprised nor outraged. Disappointed it was handled so poorly, yes.
People, it costs these companies, be it PayPal, BillPoint, Yahoo..whoever to offer this service. There's not a one of them that is going to remain free forever.
For all those who trashed BillPoint & continue to trash BillPoint, atleast they told you UP FRONT you were going to pay.
There is NO free lunch & there is NO free credit card service. Read My Lips.
posted on September 13, 2000 11:49:47 PM
I think it is clear that PaypalDamon's comments are doing nothing but making people more angry. Certainly, I can understand posting to a board to defend or clarify something, and I am sure that many people here are ok with the fact that a PR guy is here. However, an appropriate strategy for Paypal PR dept. would be to keep a tight lip on these boards because it is evident that what is being said only fules people's anger, distrust, etc. etc.
Paypal will definitely take a hit, many will quit, but they will more than likely surrvive and perhaps even flourish under the new TOS. That is, unless somehow a class-action lawsuit or investigation by a regulatory agency doesn't bring Paypal to a grinding halt.
For me, I never wanted to do business with Paypal from day one and I never should have felt like I had to. It isn't nice being LIED to.
-Del
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill
