Please refer these comments to Partner Services on the thread I started there to keep things straight.
I can tell that many of you are upset, I would just ask you to review the information below.
It's important to note that this message is simply to remind our user of our Terms of Use -- which require accounts using our service for business use to register for a Business or Premier account. These terms have been in effect since X.com began offering Business and Premier accounts in June. It is also important to note, that X.com's PayPal service REMAINS FREE for consumer and personal use.
What is business use and who should have a Business account? Here is the relevant text of the message:
"What type of activity do we classify as "business use"? Using PayPal to collect payments for goods or services sold on a corporate website, personal homepage, or other forum counts as business use. Auction sellers — both individuals who make it a full time job and those who sell on a recurring, part-time basis — are also engaging in business use. If you have a Personal Account and you use it for business purposes, we ask that you comply with our terms of use and upgrade."
Our service is still the best around, at the lowest possible prices. And there are even more great features coming next month:
Earned income on your X.com PayPal account
Debit cards
International
Shopping carts
To provide the service, over and above the credit card costs, we provide and incur costs with:
Providing Buyer and Seller Protection against fraudulent transactions
I appreciate the feedback that you all have thrown my way, and I would like to apologize for my inability to answer every post. I would like to add that there are many things to running the business that may not be readily apparent to the end users. We are still the most feature-rich service available -- and the least expensive -- in relation to the products and services we currently offer and will be offering.
Many thanks for your support and for your feedback.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:42:20 PM
Just got through making additions to all my current auctions saying that I will no longer accept PayPal for payment, and referring the reader to the threads here. I was upset over the whole verification issue, and I am really angry now. Like many of you who have commented here, I am a small part-time seller on eBay, and any additional fees I incur are going to cut significantly into my profit margin. (And sales have already been 'way off
for most of the spring and summer.)
Yes, PayPal's rates are reasonable when compared with regular bank rates for accepting credit cards, but, da*nit, "never a fee" should be "never a fee."
posted on September 13, 2000 01:49:57 PM
There are many questions to be asked here; it is not about just paying for services. PayPal may have violated the law. That's why each person has to decide for himself/herself to spend 15 minutes to file a complaint with the regulatory bodies. There are quite a few regulations regarding credit cards, wire transfers, electronic transfers, ACH, disclosures, etc. PayPal should have to follow them just as any other financial institution does.
I don't see the issues about paying for services as the driving force here. It's about integrity and honesty which there are definitely serious issues here. And it is worth paying another party a little more if this other party is stronger financially and can be "trusted" with your money. Do we really trust PayPal? Would you keep money in your bank if they lied to you, or would you move your money next store even though you would receive less interest. Most people would accept receiving less interest just as everyone needs to consider is it worth paying slightly more fees to be with a more reputable company which is honest and forthcoming and stronger financially.
Can't you see we have been LIED TO AND USED; think about this closely before you rollover and accept this because their service is convenient or cheaper than another service. PayPal was not honest about charging for their services, was not forthcoming on the verification process, and MOST IMPORTANTLY USED US to attract users which has enabled them to grow tremendously and receive investment dollars. That's right, they used us to attract the investment dollars with dishonest statements and now won't even pay us referrals if the user does not verify a bank account. Do you realize how expensive it is to attract users on the Internet and for financial services, companies don't forget PayPal is a financial service companies. They used us to do this with a measly $5 bonus and now won't even pay that if the new user is not verified with a bank account.
I know its a tough choice to leave this company because of its convenience and fee structure. But again, ask yourself is this the type of company that you want to keep your business with.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:53:11 PM
Okay, I can understand the 1.9% on credit card transactions and would be more than willing to pay that especially for the option of accepting international payments. I have an extreme problem with the following:
1) Paying a flat .25 on top of the 1.9% when I am paying 1.9% on things like shipping charges and insurance costs on which I make NO PROFIT! That .25 really eats into my profits.
2) Paying fees for services NOT related to credit card processing such as payments from another paypal account.
What is the "float" paying for? Payments between PayPal accounts should NOT be subject to the same costs as credit card processing IMHO.
posted on September 13, 2000 01:54:00 PM
paypaldamon
Your post tells us nothing that we didn't already know. The same thing has ALREADY been posted in this thread..
>>"Our service is still the best around, at the lowest possible prices."<<
But your customer relations are the worst I have ever seen. WE ARE PAYPAL - YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED - RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.....Oh but we have your best interersts at heart and you will love our new services.
Your information on the costs to establish a merchant account is seriously flawed. Just because you were taken for a ride and paid $1200 for a $200 terminal does not mean that's the way it is. Most companies can get an account started for $25 application fee, or no application fee in some cases.
The benefit of having a merchant account is that things don't change on a whim. PayPal started out as one thing and is now trying to get in the merchant account/ payment processing business. But it doesn't have all it's stuff in place.
Trust me, PayPal will become more and more like a merchant account-- fees and all. It has no choice, it has to. This is how the business model works. They can't keep undercutting the fees. Fees will go up and up until it resembles regular payment services or traditional merchant accounts.
X.com is a bank, this is how banks work. There is no such thing as a free lunch with a bank, they get their fees one way or another.
Me personally, I don't mind the fees, since I do operate a business. I just wish they would give us all the services a merchant account has- monthly statements, fees assessed once a month instead of being deducted from each transaction, toll free 24 hour support, address verification, etc.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:06:53 PM
Well, I've slept on it, and I still don't feel any better about this!
The fees bother me, but not so much as being tricked.
First PayPal used the $10/$5 referrals to get people to "encourage" each other to sign up. I personally didn't agree with their marketing strategy on that, and I elected not to participate in it by signing up AFTER the hype had calmed down.
"Always Free", they said, while at the same time providing auction logos and a special page just for auction payments. PayPal encouraged auction transactions during the time they were advertising "Always Free", essentially saying that auction sales were okay.
Now, suddenly, anyone who sells even piddly things on an auction site is automatically a "business", and is required to have a Business or Premier account.
When they started introducing the bells and whistles on their business accounts, they emphasized that no one would be forced to upgrade. I read in another thread that they thought their business services would be valuable enough that people would WANT to voluntarily upgrade their accounts. According to that, upgrading was completely optional.
And then early this morning I received their long message forcing me to decide on the spot whether or not I am a "business", and then when I clicked to find out more information, I found myself suddenly upgraded to a Premier account without any warning or any questions asked!
What frustrates me, too, is that I probably would have upgraded anyway once their shopping cart feature was implemented. But until that time comes, I really have no use for any of their (supposedly) optional other services ... yet now I have a Premier account.
Yes, technically speaking, I am a business. But it's not so much the fees that upset me as much as their royally flubbed up way of handling this. IMO, this is equivalent to a seller changing the terms after an auction is over, and asking for more shipping than was quoted in the auction.
I haven't yet decided whether I'm going to keep accepting PayPal. I probably will, since so many of my bidders use it. But those fees are going to have to go somewhere.
One other thing that really bugs me is that, if PayPal needs the money so badly, why do buyers paying a Premier/Business seller get a 1% bonus back??? Shouldn't that money be used to offset the fees sellers are going to have to pay?
I wish PPDamon would address these issues, and also the issue of people being upgraded without meaning to. But I have seen only vague responses as of yet.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:09:04 PM
Everybody could just pass the cost to the customer if they choose to use paypal. for Payments via paypal add a 2% service fee to the auction. Similar to the way you would add a fee for internation shipments. And then offer a free service as an alternative.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:14:19 PM
PPD said "We are still the most feature-rich service available -- and the least expensive -- in relation to the products and services we currently offer and will be offering.
Well, I can say, that as for me and my business, I don't care about feature rich services like checks, debit cards, etc. I have a bank that tells me what the fees are and I accept or reject up front and where, if I have a problem, I can go and walk into the president's office and tell him in person how I feel or ask questions.
Please listen closely all I wanted and needed was a fast, convenient way to move money and to allow my customers to use their credit cards for payment
I do not want to be paying for feature rich services that have no value to me!
I also do not want to be paying for things that have nothing to do with credit card transactions like moving money between PayPal accounts. Give me a break here--okay?
Let's rethink the flat rate and the costs involved with moving money that has nothing to do with credit card transactions. And, I don't like paying for services BEFORE they are available--like international processing! When I see it working, I will pay for it.
I have been with PayPal since the beginning. I didn't go with xcom when they started because I didn't need another bank or the "feature rich services" it would provide. I found their site bulky and difficult.
I rue the day that PayPal allowed xcom to aquire them. We are not working with PayPal here--we are working with the xcom that didn't work because people didn't like the feel, the bulkiness, the less than friendly attitudes, etc. even when xcom offered TWICE the monetary incentive to use them!
posted on September 13, 2000 02:18:55 PM
I agree with you, labbie1.
Why should we pay a fee on payments that came from a PayPal account, where no CC comissions were charged?
paypaldamon?
------------------------------------------------------------ I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive Even the signs seemed to tell me otherwise http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/preacher4u/
posted on September 13, 2000 02:22:02 PM
As I've stated in the past, I never expected PayPal to be free forever. Hell, I don't expect them now to stay the cheapest. What I dislike is the BALD FACED LYING on the part of PayPal. It is the height of corporate arrogance these days to think that blatantly lying to customers can be OK if you just lie to them somemore.
Where did PayPal lie to us? What about their logos? Didn't they always say,"Always Fast, Always Free"? It didn't flash,"Always Fast, Always Free For Personal Use, excluding all Sellers receiving said funds" did it? It did not. There have also been neumorous spots on PayPal over time that have made it appear that same way.
BEWARE PAYPAL: YOUR REPUBLICAN BUDDIES IN CONGRESS WON'T BE THERE NEXT YEAR TO BACK UP YOUR TACTICS! WE'RE VOTING THEM OUT! THEN WHERE"RE YA GONNA BE?
If PayPal had been up-front all this time, telling everyone that it was for a limited time only, that would be a different matter. I seriously doubt that consumer groups are going to take this lying down. Sure, PayPal can do whatever it wants, but when it sinks as low as they have now, it's gonna cost them!
posted on September 13, 2000 02:24:46 PM
PayPalDamon:
I appreciate the feedback that you all have thrown my way, and I would like to apologize for my inability to answer every post. I would like to add that there are many things to running the business that may not be readily apparent to the end users. We are still the most feature-rich service available -- and the least expensive -- in relation to the products and services we currently offer and will be offering.
This is why PayPal should have been upfront about everything from the start. Lies, half-truths, and evasive answers ALWAYS come back to bite you in the rear. The damage that PayPal has caused itself with this fiasco has really destroyed what little bit of credibility you guys had regained following the verification nonsense. The heads at PayPal can't seem to take a lesson!
I really don't see why you put up with this crap. Obviously YOU have been lied to by your own company. And in situations like these your job requires you to lie to us to try to keep the chickens in the coop. I'm sorry but you guys knocked down the door on this one. Many of the chickens have already fled with many more to follow. And most of those chickens are the sellers, the very people that PayPal needs in order to survive. If no sellers are willing to accept PayPal, where can the buyers use it? I have already started using Yahoo Paydirect and the buyers do seem to like it. By the way, you should tell your boss to read the Yahoo Paydirect TOU and take notes.
And don't be lulled into thinking that only the sellers that read and post on these boards will be the ones to leave. If you do, you'll be very badly mistaken. You guys have spent an aweful lot of money on referral fees, seemingly for naught. Good luck, goodbye, good day!
posted on September 13, 2000 02:27:43 PMEverybody could just pass the cost to the customer if they choose to use paypal. for Payments via paypal add a 2% service fee to the auction. Similar to the way you would add a fee for internation shipments. And then offer a free service as an alternative.
You just don't get it. The fees aren't even in the equation now. They are irrelevant at this point.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:31:59 PM
Hi all. This whole paypal thing is a bummer. I personally will be keeping it, as an only good alternative to billpoint. But for those of you that have a severe beef with them and plan on cancelling your paypal acceptance, email me, I have a GREAT icon that is ebay regulation size, 88X33. Paypal logo with a big red "no smoking" style o-slash across the front
posted on September 13, 2000 02:45:56 PM
Too busy to answer the questions of your customers?
Bad answer.
PPD said: "We have been on an honesty program as it relates to business accounts for quite a bit now."
An Honesty Program?
What is that, some sort of 12 step program for chronic liars?
"Hi, my name is Damon, and I work for PayPal, and we're all prevaricators."
This is Crisis Management time, Damon. The folks in the big offices get paid to resolve these sorts of things. And a good start:
GRANDFATHER the existing users. Have the CEO come to the boards and apologize profusely for the foul ups, and loss of trust. Add functionality to your fee-based products so folks will choose to purchase them.
It's not that tough. It's not about fees, really. It's about trust. And honesty.
Just do the right thing. Pass this along, would you?
[ edited by magazine_guy on Sep 13, 2000 02:56 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 02:46:18 PM
I predict PayPal will fold within 6 months.
For one of the following two reasons.
1)This outrage causes a massive loss of use.
or
2)They reverse this decision and go under financially.
So what can they do.
Grandfather everyone who had an account prior to the introduction of business accounts (~June) These people were promised "free forever" and "no one will be forced to upgrade"
posted on September 13, 2000 02:47:19 PM
Sigh....I guess I'll have to take all references to Paypal out of my auctions. Most of my auctions finish at $50 or lower. The .25 cost for each PP transaction along with the percentage, will truly cut into my already small profits. How easy is it to un-register from Paypal?
Not skyline8 on eBay.
posted on September 13, 2000 02:57:34 PM
PPDamon -- You said "As you may be able to view from the sheer number of responses, you will see why I cannot answer all of these questions individually today."
I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see any questions being answered with anything other than copied-and-pasted quotes from PayPal's TOS. (???)
Do you think my bidders would find it acceptable if they e-mailed me with a question, and I told them I didn't have time to answer them? Uhhhh ... no!
We understand that there are a lot of things to be addressed, but so far I haven't seen any real answers. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place, but I don't see anything here in eBay Outlook or Partner Services other than copied-and-pasted posts.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:00:10 PM
This is the first time I've seen this. I
bookmarked the log in page to avoid the
advertisements. Guess I better look.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:02:19 PM
Sorry, nomorefees - adding a surcharge for any payment form is strictly against ebay regs. So the seller has to either build it into his opening bid (in which case ebay gets a cut, since ebay fees are calculated on opening bid/FV) or tack it on to shipping costs, in which case bidders are going to shriek at "handling" charges. In either case, Paypal increases its take because the total he's paying the seller will be higher.
But once again - the amount doesn't matter. It's Paypal's remarkable history of promising one thing and doing another, and repeatedly saying "trust me, it's for your own good" when it's clearly NOT, that's the issue. IOW, it's credibility, not cost.
Okay, virtual hands up: Who still finds Paypal credible? Who will believe anything that Paypaldamon has to say here or on any message board? Who will trust that Paypal's promises and TOS are actually worth anything?
posted on September 13, 2000 03:09:51 PM
anything damon says at this point is completely suspect. There is no way to recover confidence - I have closed my account.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:13:39 PM
Long time lurker, one of the few times I've posted. I'm a buyer on eBay, and what I like about PayPal is that the items i buy get to me much sooner than if I send a check or MO to the seller.
The speed and convenience to me, the buyer, are what I most like about PayPal.
HOWEVER the incredibly poor customer service that they have shown in the past 60 days is truly stunning.
Always free means always free.
I think what so many of you are truly annoyed at is not the actual fee structure, but the facted you ahave been lied to and decieved on a monumental scale.
I hope that people who sell Dept 56 collectibles will continue to use SOME kind of on-line quick, easy payment service, but if its not PayPal, that's OK. I don't much care, just want it to be easy.
[ edited by ajhthree on Sep 13, 2000 03:15 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 03:18:27 PM
I might as well throw in my 2 cents. I, too, am outraged over PayPal's tactics. Always fast, Always free... Always changing the terms and lying at every turn.
I'm just waiting for PayPal to say "Always Free" was meaning that there was never going to be a fee for anyone using the service to send a payment. I just feel that their spin doctors will be coming up with a statement of that type. Here's news to you PayPal... Visa and Mastercard do not allow minimums or the charging of extra fees because the buyer chose to use a credit card. You can't tack a percentage onto charge card transactions and pass them onto the person making the purchase.
So, dear PayPal, you had to be free for the buyer. No choice in the matter. So, don't try pulling any crap on us and try to convince us that that statement was only meant for the buyer not the seller.
As for the wonderful greeting message you provided your account holder with today. I immediately became suspicious when there was no way to view any fee structure from that page related to Premiere or Business account holders. There was no way I was going to click either one of those without full disclosure beforehand of each and every fee tier involved with your service. I had a sneaking suspicion that if one of those buttons was clicked it would automatically register me with that service. You didn't disclose that too, did you? Too many people were greeted with the realization they had now agreed to a service for which the terms were never disclosed.
This sounds like an interesting case for the Attorney Generals and Banking Commissions of each and every state in the US to be investigating.
PayPal... you pis**d off WAY too many people this time. You'd better have your retainers paid up for all those extra lawyers you're going to need because the fecal matter is soon to be striking the rotating circulation device.
posted on September 13, 2000 03:21:35 PM
HCQ..right now I wouldn't trust paypal with my garbage can..much less my money.
I took a wait and see thing on the verification....didn't verify but didn't pull my account.
Today I am listing auctions and the little note I normally put into my auctions about the customer using Billpoint or paypal for credit card payments and faster turn around has been changed to mention ONLY Billpoint. I doubt if it will ever return to billpoint and paypal again.
