I will be using Yahoo PayDirect and BidPay. The donkey follow carrot approach that PayPal and the X bank have used to capture users is unacceptable.
I will have a paypal/X bank logo on my auctions but it won't be for acceptance.
Everyone that has paid me using paypal/X bank will be receiving an email from me suggesting that they close their paypal/X bank account and why. I will also be providing them links to all the paypal/X bank threads here.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:34:21 PM
JESUS! Damon was handed one huge pile of #*!@, give him a break. He has no control over what the company does, and tries his best to cover up the bad spots (that is what he is paied to do).
OK, so x.com is the new age Mafia... I say we all go to the Japanese Mafia (PayDirect).
posted on September 13, 2000 04:38:44 PMJESUS! Damon was handed one huge pile of #*!@, give him a break. He has no control over what the company does, and tries his best to cover up the bad spots (that is what he is paied to do).
OK, so x.com is the new age Mafia... I say we all go to the Japanese Mafia (PayDirect).
Oh, I see... Damon is just the hit man. We should really be pissed at the Big Guy.
posted on September 13, 2000 04:39:27 PM
Add my name to those who are complaining. I also operate on a very low profit margin, and these fees are going to put me that much closer to the red. I signed up with PayPal because it was free, and have been very satisfied with it...up to this point. Like many of you, I don't need all the "freebies" that go with the new service--all I wanted was a place to accept credit cards and send me a check once a month. And while I'm at it--I don't like the idea of being "verified." Sorry, but there's no way I'm going to give PayPal or anybody else my bank account number. And yet, every time a customer uses PayPal to pay for one of my items, PayPal broadcasts to my customers that I'm "unverified" It makes me look like some type of risky business. I see no reason to post the "Verified" listing each time, as how I am paid by PayPal has no relevance to the customer!
posted on September 13, 2000 04:39:50 PM
And since he is "paied" to handle his company's BS, he is sufficiently compensated. If he can't handle it with out sympathy, he should find a more honorable job - like drowning kittens or stealing Social Security checks from old folks' mailboxes. In either of those occupations, at least he will not be required to say "trust us, it's for your own good" and "But that's what we TOLD you we were doing - you just misunderstood" on a regular basis.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Sep 13, 2000 04:42 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 04:59:03 PM
I want to respond to the accusation that PayPal somehow lied about its policy. This is untrue and unfair.
The login reminder page restates a policy that has been in place for months. The facts:
1. Below, in full, is the email that we sent to users in July. The relevant portion clearly states that "businesses using PayPal are required by our terms of use to create a Business Account."
2. A clear "Rules" box on our "Personal vs. Premier/Business Account" page (which highlights the differences between account types) states the requirement that businesses must sign up for a business account. This box has been on our site since June.
3. Our terms of use have also stated for weeks that if you are using PayPal to conduct "e-commerce on a regular basis," you need to sign up for, or upgrade to, a Premier or Business account.
We have always said that PayPal is free for personal use. That remains true today. We have also always said that business use requires a Premier or Business account.
I realize that there are a number of occasional sellers who want clarification on what constitutes business use. Obviously, there is a big difference between the occasional seller who sells one beanie babie a month, and a seller who sells dozens of items per month. Today's reminder was only directed at sellers who conduct e-commerce on a regular basis.
It is not possible for PayPal to subsidize these businesses and continue to provide this service for all.
From: PayPal News [[email protected]]
Date: Saturday, July 8, 2000
Subject: Important news about your PayPal account
Dear [FIRSTNAME],
Last month we wrote to tell you about the launch of
PayPal’s new Premier and Business Accounts. These
accounts included premium features such as 24/7 customer
service support and an automatic daily sweep of funds into
your bank account. And we also promised you that many
more premium tools were still to come. Now, we at X.com are
pleased to deliver PAYPAL'S LATEST SET OF FEATURES for
Premier and Business users:
· Web Accept: accept payments directly on your website
· Auction Tools: new ways to manage your online auctions
with ease
· Batch Pay: send affiliate payments to thousands of
people at once
· Downloadable Transaction Log
· Unlimited Credit Card Payments
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
ACCEPT MONEY ON YOUR HOMEPAGE
Our new Web Accept tool lets you accept payments directly
on your website. By posting Web Accept buttons on your
web pages, BUYERS CAN PAY YOU FOR PURCHASES WITH PAYPAL
INSTANTLY -- without leaving your site. Accepting
payments online has never been easier! (Pricing for this
feature is only a modest 1.9% on payments received, with
no flat fee.) Learn more about Web Accept by going to
our website:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/web/index-outside
Also, our Business Account users now will have NO LIMIT ON
CREDIT CARD FUNDS RECEIVED. Buyers who have reached their
PayPal $2,000 credit card spending limit can still charge
their card when sending a payment to Premier and
Business users.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
AUCTION MANAGEMENT TOOLS
Collect auction payments quickly and easily with INSTANT
PURCHASE FOR AUCTIONS. This feature lets buyers pay you
simply by clicking on a logo in your auction listing; this
generates a pop-up form where buyers can enter their PayPal
username and password to pay you without even having to
login to our website. Also new, our AUTOMATED PAYMENT
REQUEST creates online invoices that you can distribute to
your winning bidders. It's fast -- you can send out 100
invoices in just 10 minutes! Visit our website to learn
more about our new auction tools for Premier and Business
Account users: http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/auc/auction-business-tools-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
SEND PAYMENTS THROUGH BATCH PAY
Now pay hundreds -- even thousands -- of people all at
once with X.com’s new Batch Pay tool. If you run an
AFFILIATE PROGRAM, A COUPON/REBATE PROMOTION, OR A
"PAY-TO-SURF" COMPANY, you no longer have to depend on
expensive and slow check runs to pay your customers --
Batch Pay can do it for you. (Batch payment transactions
cost the lesser of 2% or $0.25 per payment, far below
the cost of printing and mailing a check.) For more
information on X.com's Batch Pay, go to:
http://www.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/batch-outside.
And for those of you who participate in a "pay-to-surf"
or affiliate program, be sure to tell your administrator
you'd like to BE PAID WITH PAYPAL!
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
PREMIUM FUNCTIONALITY
In addition to all the features available on PayPal
personal accounts, Premier and Business users can take
advantage of these other special features and services:
· A DOWNLOADABLE TRANSACTION HISTORY available in
Quicken, QuickBooks, and comma-delimited text formats.
· Automatic sweep of your PayPal balance into your bank
account at the end of each day. (This feature is optional
and carries a modest 0.6% fee.)
· A 24-hour-a-day, 7-days-a-week exclusive customer service
hotline.
· Frequent special promotions, such as last month’s "Free
Listing Week."
· Automatic eligibility for X.com's AFFILIATE PROGRAM.
· Many Business Account users will be eligible to be
featured in our upcoming SHOPPING TAB, where over 2.5
million PayPal users will be able to make instant, online
purchases directly from you.
For more information on all the features vailable to Business
and Premier users, please visit our site:
https://secure.paypal.x.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/personal_vs_business-outside
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
It’s fast and simple to upgrade your personal account in
order to take advantage of these premium features. Please keep
in mind that businesses using PayPal are required by our terms
of use to create a Business Account. To upgrade, just login to
your PayPal account and click on the "Upgrade Now" button. The
upgrade process only takes a couple of minutes, and you’ll be
able to use our new payment tools immediately.
We appreciate your choice to use X.com’s PayPal service to send
and receive money, and thanks for helping to make PayPal the #1
payment service on the Web!
posted on September 13, 2000 05:02:22 PM
one thing you people have to remember when a company gets charged more for things they have to change the fees they charge. ***business*** And also remember they didn't throw it down your throats at the last minute.. they gave us the notice over a week ago and they gave you a time frame of when the fees go into affect. so if you don't like it then get out but for us that use it everyday and many times over it is the best deal yet. did you think that maybe one day Ebay will upgrade their fees? what then Scream on this list and think it will make a difference. I think not.. Get over it and go on with life....
posted on September 13, 2000 05:16:24 PM
PaypalD, have you considered a career in politics?
Unfortunately I somehow missed all of these changes. Maybe I have become so accustomed to believing what I am told when I sign up for something, and view additional lengthy communications as fluff solicitations, with no need for me to pore laboriously over all of that. At any rate, my fault I guess for letting myself be the dupe.
I'm gone. This was a convenience for my buyers as well, but I don't depend on you for my success. I don't how gorgeous the fella, if he lies -- he's history. Same with you folks -- your "advantages" and competitiveness is meaningless in the face of your about-face. I've signed up for PayDirect and replaced my auction template with that payment option, changed those auctions that had no bids, will close my account after all current auctions with bids are completed.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:20:43 PM
Paypaldamon,
In essence what you're saying is that Paypal was choosing to not enforce part of it's TOS for some period of time and now is choosing to enforce it.
In theory, I don't have a problem with that and appreciate the temporary free ride we were given! However, as other people have posted, statements previously were made that the choice to sign up was voluntary and that Paypal's intentions were to make the premium services worth signing up for. What has happened now doesn't feel voluntary. I agree that it's reasonable to expect people to start complying by the TOS, but I feel its disingenuous to dodge the fact that Paypal previously was saying "we won't force you to comply, we'd just like for you to do so and we hope to make it worth your while."
Personally, the timing couldn't be worse for me, but I think I'll probably be better off taking Paypal and paying the fees rather than closing the account. I'll have to run the numbers later when I'm less tired...
posted on September 13, 2000 05:24:53 PM
Oh, THERE it is, buried waaaaaaay down at the very bottom of a lengthy e-mail that few people would ever bother reading in full:
"Please keep in mind that businesses using PayPal are required by our terms of use to create a Business Account."
OK, so maybe PayPal DIDN'T lie after all. Well, except for the fact that they originally said that their services would be "free forever" and then changed their "terms of service" to require anybody who sells anything to sign up for a NEWLY CREATED fee-based business account. But that's not really a lie, right? More of a broken promise, I guess....
Unfortunately, Damon, you most certainly DID lie. After that e-mail was sent out you were asked point blank whether any users would be forced to sign up for a business account and you said "no". And that directly contradicts PayPal's own [albeit unobtrusively buried where nobody would notice] terms.
You had a chance back in July to come clean and say yes, people who sell on eBay and use Paypal will be required to upgrade to a business account and pay the associated fees. Instead, however, you chose to lie.
My only question now is what, exactly, is your relation to PayPal, and is there really a difference between you telling us a lie and "PayPal" lying to us?
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 05:33:19 PM
PayPal lied a long time ago .. at the beginning .. before anything except personal accounts existed. Their target market was auction sellers. What were they selling to auction sellers? FREE acceptance of credit card payments!
QUESTIONS I WOULD LIKE ANSWERED PLEASE:
1) If personal accounts are not for sellers, then why are we allowed to post links in our auctions? Why do our accounts have instructions on how to post links?
2) If personal accounts are not for sellers, then why are we offered basic logos? (Business & premier can use instant purchase logos.) They're there but we're not supposed to use them?
3) If personal accounts are not for sellers, why do we have instructions for sending a manual request for payment? (Business & premier have automatic payment requests). The manual request for personal accounts even has a box for 'auction'?
You offer ALL your account members varying levels of auction services ... what, pray tell, is the purpose of the auction services for personal accounts? A consumer/buyer doesn't need a link or logo or payment request form ~ seller does!?!?!
PayPal .. you must think your customers are idiots!! Nothings changed? Right .. and 2 + 2 = 5!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have a memory like a steel trap .. unfortunately it's rusted shut!
posted on September 13, 2000 05:42:01 PM
The Yahoo payment service requires that you have an account if you wish to pay for items you purchase at auction. You can use your credit card to deposit money into your account, and then you use the money in the account to pay for purchases. This is not the same as the way PayPal allows you to pay for items. When you pay for auctions through PayPal, you can choose to pay directly from your credit card. This means you don't have to pay your credit card company interest right away, as only cash withdrawals from your credit card are charged interest starting immediately. (Which you would have to, in order to put cash in your Yahoo account. And, BTW, are Yahoo accoutns FDIC insured? Doubtful. X.com account aren't.)
This is not to say that I approve of PayPal. On the contrary... I just cancelled my account with them. Their fees may be low, but I'm having a hard enough time selling as it is. If I have to add more to the prices I'm charging already, I'm not going to be making anything, because nobody will be buying.
posted on September 13, 2000 05:44:11 PM
HartCottageQuilts,
Your comment to PayPalDamon, "he should find a more honorable job - like drowning kittens or stealing Social Security checks from old folks' mailboxes..." is beyond the limits of basic etiquette. Please remember to address the topic, not the individual.
Everyone,
This is a very volatile subject. I urge you all to keep the CGs in mind as you post.
Pat
[email protected]
[ edited by pattaylor on Sep 13, 2000 05:45 PM ]
Basically waht you are saying is that most people on this board must sign up for a business account because most people here buy
andsell.
Now I suppose credit card payments wouldn't remain free forever, but if your claim is that it is to help "shoulder" the burden, why would payments with a positive paypal balance or bank accounts incur fees? Check or processing costs aside, if a bank were to send me a check, they would not deduct the cost of an envelope, stamp, and worker's salaries in my payment.
I never viewed paypal as a credit card acceptor, but as a system of ecash...and cash should be transferred on an 1-to-1 basis
posted on September 13, 2000 05:56:05 PM
And speaking of "float time"....if PayPal is going to charge me, I assume, right away, then the float time MUST be 24 hours or LESS! None of this 3-4-5 day bull!
posted on September 13, 2000 05:58:42 PM
Hi godzillatemplate,
At the time that I made the statement it was true. Our upgrading of accounts was done on an honesty basis and this has not changed. Today's message when you logged in was simply a reiteration of the policy.
I am the official company representative assigned to the boards and I take great pleasure, in addition to flack, for doing so. I do it because I think customer feedback is valuable, be it positive or negative and I do it as a customer advocate.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:06:17 PM
Well, I checked. I never got that July 8 email.
However, I did get this one last year:
Subj: Question :
Date: 12/22/99 4:24:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: damon@xxxxxxx (Damon)
Reply-to: damon@xxxxxxxx
To: HonestJonxxxxxxx
Dear John:
Sorry for the delay...we are almost caught up on our e-mails.
You would not be charged for receiving a payment via e-mail. This is what
would have to happen:
Both parties would have to be paypal subscribers for monies to be beamed and
received. There is no charge for this service. In order for the subscribers
to take the money out of the paypal system, they must register with a valid
credit card/ bank account in order to have the funds deposited in the bank
account or issued in the form of a check....
Please email me with any additional questions.
Sincerely,
Damon
PayPal Customer Service Manager
Hi,
I sell on ebay, if someone were to pay me using the paypal service,
would
I be charged and how much. I emailed you about this last Friday and have
received no response. I am hardly inclined to trust you with my money if
you
can't answer a simple email in a timely manner.
By the way there is a thread on Auction Watch discussing Paypal,
perhaps you would like to check it out. It is at:
posted on September 13, 2000 06:06:24 PM
paypaldamon,
While your statement "Our upgrading of accounts was done on an honesty basis and this has not changed. Today's message when you logged in was simply a reiteration of the policy." is true on some level, I think that it is still rather disingenuous.
Previously the "spin" was: "We'd like you to sign up for the Premier accounts, it's in our TOS after all, but we're not going to MAKE you do so."
Today's "spin" is: "We told you a long time ago you were supposed to do this, why are you so surprised? Oh, by the way, we're going to ask you to either sign up for the accounts or make a false representation on our website. And, PS, we're looking into ways to further enforce our TOS."
Don't get me wrong; I agree that it's your right to enforce your TOS and, in fact, I just upgraded my account. I decided the cost was worth it. However, I think to say there's been no change in policy is a stretching of the truth. The letter of the law may not have been changed, but the attitude of the "cops" has changed. IMHO, Paypal would be better off saying "Look, we asked nicely and hoped people would comply but compliance was too low. As a result, we have found that we must insist that people follow our stated Terms of Service. Otherwise, we're going to have a hard time keeping the virtual doors open." People may not like the end result a whole lot better but I think people would respect that more than denials of a change in the "spin."
posted on September 13, 2000 06:07:06 PM
PayPalDamon, as recently as last month, you were on these message boards assuring us we did not have to upgrade.
From August 4:
"Nobody is being forced to upgrade their accounts or add a bank account. That is your choice."
(from the following thread: http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&id=231759&thread=231366)
posted on September 13, 2000 06:09:28 PMpaypaldamon:
"Premier/Business accounts are also available to individuals who would like to take advantage of the premium features. However, no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account. Personal Accounts will remain FREE for individual use!"
vs.
"business users are required to operate using a Premier or Business Account"
What am I missing here? If I sell on eBay and want to use PayPal I am "required" but not "forced" to sign up for a business account?
Quick, get this guy a good dictionary.....
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 06:12:23 PMGodzillatemplate
LOL!
------------------------------------------------------------ I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive Even the signs seemed to tell me otherwise http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/preacher4u/
posted on September 13, 2000 06:12:57 PM
Hi vargas,
That information was correct at the time that I posted it. As a reminder, today's notification was to advise of the policy and that enforcement could come down the road and only
My response was no different than any other response that would have been available at that time.
However, as other people have posted, statements previously were made that the choice to sign up was voluntary and that Paypal's intentions were to make the premium services worth signing up for. What has happened now doesn't feel voluntary. I agree that it's reasonable to expect people to start complying by the TOS, but I feel its disingenuous to dodge the fact that Paypal previously was saying "we won't force you to comply, we'd just like for you to do so and we hope to make it worth your while."
