posted on September 13, 2000 06:16:10 PM
PAYPALDAMON?? You are doing what you are paid to do and nothing more. As I said about 10 days ago, "What is in it for PayPal? I mean we are all in business for a profit, and what affects the bottom line." You side-stepped the question by thanking another poster for being so nice to you, saying your job is hard at times. Poor thing! You are out here taking the flack for the big *good ole boys* that are snickering in their wine glasses that reeled in the suckers. Everyone wants a piece of the action, and by the time everyone gets done raising their fees by a nickle and a dime, before you know it, we will be just handing all of the profits to PayPal and EBAY on a silver platter. Get the CEO out on the front lines, instead of in the bathroom with his head in the toilet! You keep on saying the same thing, and the more you say it, the madder people get. Get a new record, ok? Tell the CEO to fire all of his PR people. THEY STINK!
posted on September 13, 2000 06:22:10 PM"Look, we asked nicely and hoped people would comply but compliance was too low. As a result, we have found that we must insist that people follow our stated Terms of Service. Otherwise, we're going to have a hard time keeping the virtual doors open."
And THIS is the cruxt of the situation! NEVER put the cart before the horse. If PayPal/xcom had actually IMPLEMENTED some value added services, the compliance wouldn't BE so LOW!
BUT the company who has been promising value added services for MONTHS expects everyone to upgrade to an account that makes you pay not only on credit card transactions, but ALL transactions including from one PayPal account (which may have had to pay the percentage and flat fee when they accepted payment from a customer) to another PayPal account (which AGAIN has to pay the percentage and flat fee!)
All this time, there are a list of items that we are going to have added! Wow! Goody! I am a SUCKER! I believe those services will start right away! NOT!
When I see a service that I NEED--like International transaction ability--THEN I will pay for added values because THEN there will BE an added value!
I signed up for a way to transfer money easily, conveniently and quickly for FREE. I ALREADY have a BANK! Thanks though!
For the first time since I opened my PayPal account--way back at the beginning!--I have a zero balance! Not a penny in the account. I was leaving money in my account so that PayPal could use it for their float, but NO MORE!
posted on September 13, 2000 06:25:32 PM
HartCottageQuilts -
I seldom agree with your posts, but I think there is a great deal of validity to your last one.
Paypaldamon -
I have always been uncomfortable with the idea that companies doing business with
online auctions, or representatives from auctions themselves, were allowed to post here rather than under their own corporate pages and identity. I never could define the reason for that feeling, other than a vague sense that it was "improper".
Todays events have brought the reason to me with stunning clarity. These pages should be devoted to discourse between buyers and sellers, not corporate viewpoints.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:26:13 PM
Damon -- Your repetitious posts are starting to look like spam, and smell like spam that's been sitting in the sun for a week.
No one is questioning that lengthy e-mail you keep on re-posting.
Why don't you respond to the other e-mail that has been quoted here -- the one that says "No one will ever be forced to upgrade". That's the lie that Paypal told, and the one that we're angry about, Damon.
That was a promise made to us, the users. It is a promise that Paypal now says it intends to break.
Why should I believe Paypal now when it promises never to make unauthorized charges to my verified bank account? Was that another "correct when it was made" promise that will turn out to be a lie?
Paypal promised us that no one would be forced to upgrade. We continued to promote Paypal and bring in new users on that basis. Now it turns out they lied.
Address that e-mail, Damon, and stop posting the lengthy e-mail. We're sick of it. We're sick of being lied to. And we're sick of your evading the question.
I hate to say I told you so, but I dealt with way too many creeps on AW who told me I was a loser because I wouldn't accept Paypal. Also, not to mention buyers who couldn't read my terms and demanded that I offer Paypal to them as a payment option.
Eventually, I felt I was forced to accept it, heck, it was supposedly free, and I knew that was going to change, because I could smell this pyramid-ponzi scheme from the start.
Now I realize I should have stuck with my gut feeling. If it doesn't feel right, or it's too good to be true chances are it's not right and it is too good to be true.
For those who cancel their accounts with Paypal, like myself, we will move on and LIVE WITHOUT THEM.
For those who stick around, those who can't live without it, and I know of many, I smell an eventual class-action lawsuit which will probably bring this company to it's knees. I don't want to be around for that to happen. It is clear that Paypal engaged in deceptive business practices and lied to many people. I am sure a court would probably agree.
-Del
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill
posted on September 13, 2000 06:37:05 PM
If PayPal wants to post to these boards, why doesn't PayPal add value by addressing the issues and answering specific questions such as those posted by tutition44years. I am tired of PayPal spam.
PayPal was dishonest and used us to gain its new users. Of course they knew we were auctionsellers and they gave us the tools to use their service forever for free and hoped we continued to attract new users. Now they want to change the rules and cannot even be honest and forthcoming to state that the rules have changed. There are banking laws regarding advertising and disclosures. I hope others plan on contacting the regulators that I posted in a previous message. Trust me, the regulators will investigate, consumer complaints are not taken lightly; take the 15 minutes and file a complaint.
I think that this strategy of charging sellers may be part of PayPal's strategy to sell the company - and don't forger WE MADE THEM RICH BY ATTRACTING THE USERS FOR THEM; WE WERE USED. PayPal's biggest asset is the number of active accounts, not that it is now charging for services or how profitable it is in the short-term. Large financial institutions will put a premium on these accounts that we the sellers atttracted and salivate over all the services they could potentially cross-sell to users who have already demonstrated that they are willing to engage in on-line banking transactions. That's probably the best way for its founders and investors to make money, especially after this fiasco.
Fortunately, there are competitors. PayPal is quickly destroying what it had going for it - THE LOYALTY OF ITS AUCTION SELLERS. I personally hope Billpoint reads these threads and offers a few free months then will see how PayPal is doing.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:43:02 PM
"That information was correct at the time that I posted it" (that information being that auction payments were free of a service charge).
Well, that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You tell us auction payments are free of a service charge with PayPal, you Plaster on the site "ALWAYS FREE".....
and now that statement isn't true any more.
It may not have been a lie, because you didn't know what PayPal was gonna do. But it certainly is PayPal renegging on their promise to users.
Reminds me of the Nixon White House- press secretary says, after Nixon caught in a lie: "The President's statement is no longer operative."
What a crock.
YOu need to get on the horn to your bosses, and tell them that this won't wash. PayPal needs to honor its commitments. Your bait and switch tactics are probably illegal, and you've got a chance to step up to the plate, stop stonewalling, and fix it. That's the right thing to do.
GRANDFATHER those who signed up for free accounts for their auctions- before there was any verbage about Business accounts in the TOS.
You're changing the rules of the game after it's started.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:53:40 PM
Thewizofoz, you are on target - this was a pyramid scheme to attract new users; PayPal's greatest asset which we hand delivered to them. Now we cannot even receive our money though since the new user must be verified before you can receive the money.
I know I have been telling everbody to file a complaint and it will be investigated. I can emphatically tell you that it will. How do I know? I was a bank examiner for the federal government including credit cards and consumer compliance. Many of you have brought up issues which would be investigated by the Federal Trade Commission, California Department of Financial Institutions, and Federal Reserve. The complaint process is not difficult for consumers, the burden will be on X.com.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:56:23 PM
Hi toprespects,
With well over 800 posts or more I am currently not able to answer all posts individually and I hope that would be understood. I will try to make more headway tomorrow.
posted on September 13, 2000 06:59:31 PM
I wonder what would happen if eBay banned PayPal from their site? After all PayPal was built by bottom feeding off of eBay.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:03:11 PM
As far as I can tell, Damon, you haven't answered ANY posts. You've just posted long irrelevant e-mails and evaded the issues.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:03:33 PM
From the June 13 email newsletter sent by PayPal to all users:
*******************
For businesses and groups already enjoying the use of a Personal Account, it's easy to upgrade to a Premier/Business Account. Just log in to your account and click the "UPGRADE" button. It takes less than a minute. New users can sign up by going to https://secure.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_business-register.
Premier/Business accounts are also available to individuals who would like to take advantage of the premium features. However, no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account. Personal Accounts will remain FREE for individual use!
******************
Also from that newsletter:
*****************
"Plus, you'll get $5 referral bonuses for every new user."
and later in the same email:
"Plus, sellers continue to get a $5 bonus for every referral, and our $5 signup bonus effectively knocks $5 off the price for first-time buyers."
************************
Well, the "no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account" is no longer operative, I guess.
But the other statements, about the $5 referral? That used to be true. If my buyer signed up and paid with PayPal, I got a $5 referral. No more. Now, sellers only get the $5 if the buyer goes throuth the "Verified User" thing- by attaching a bank account, and waiting for the two small deposits- far more hoops than your typical buyer will jump through. Only one in 5 of my past 5 new PayPal referrals did the verify thing- I don't get the $5, and I assume the buyer doesn't either, despite my promoting this in my auctions. This is another change that makes PayPal money at the expense of users.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:15:03 PM
Riiiight... pick the easy ones and conveniently miss the crucial documentations of your, if not lying, at least very convenient weasling and prevaricating.
Flash Flash: RATS
Business as usual. Bet on this: Pay Pal has this all calculated out. Every bit of this reaction is expected, and not cared about in the least. They plan on losing a few hundred thousand accounts, and can afford it. They likely figure there won't be a fed investigation or serious lawsuit that would actually bother them... and to judge from how little the government can do to Firestone for *killing* people, they may be right. Grrrrrr
posted on September 13, 2000 07:15:51 PM
Here's an idea paypal damon, instead of all the fluff your posting here "git ur boss on da horn" and get some real answers for your users! I have signed up with paypal recently and opted for the business account anyway so i am not complaining about the fees, but I do believe that these folks have a valid point here and you need a statment from your boss and post it on here soon. Customer Service is key to any business and these cutomers are raving mad and you better find a solution to the problem I believe your company has just unleased upon itself. Please remember the people who make you also can break you. Just my $2,000,000 bucks worth
posted on September 13, 2000 07:20:07 PM
All right, let me see if I'm getting all this....
Step One: Tell eBay Sellers "PayPal is Free and will always be free!" Repeat this step as often as possible and use it to promote your service.
Step Two: Sit back and watch as thousands and thousands of sellers take you at your word and not only sign up but convince many thousands of other people to sign up as well.
Step Three: Wait until you have established yourself as the number one on-line payment service and then announce that from now on there will be the "personal" service and the brand new fee-based "business/premium" service [which will someday have many nifty features but not yet]. At the same time, casually mention waaaaaaaaay down at the bottom of your announcement that "business users" are now required to operate using a Premier or Business Account.
Step Four: When people ask if this change will apply to them and whether they will be forced to sign up for a business/premium account if they sell on eBay, tell them that "no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account". Repeat this step as often as necessary to convince people that you really, really mean it.
Step Four: Continue promising nifty features for business/premium accounts, but don't actually implement any of them.
Step Five: Announce that from now on anybody who sells on eBay -- even on a strictly part-time basis -- is to be considered a "business" and REQUIRED to sign up for a business account [and pay the associated fees]. Justify this by claiming that not enough people were signing up voluntarily for the new services whose promised nifty features haven't actually been implemented yet. Waffle by intimating that "requiring" someone to do something is not the same as "forcing" them to do it, since people are always free to lie, right?
There. Have I missed anything?
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 07:21:37 PM
Now we see Pay Pal operates like most other internet sites - bait and switch! Free today - charge tomorrow.
Only difference is that other sites didn't state emphatically we will ALWAYS BE FREE. How many of you would have joined and encouraged others to join if you knew that charges were on the way?
If PayPal wants to make it right they should grandfather all of us that joined under the original terms with their basic service. If we want the new value added services then we should be given the option to upgrade.
For those that feel PayPal has used devious and unfair methods, file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC).
I have liked PayPal and touted it to many customers. I was even considering the premium services. After these tactics I'm now considering cancelling my account.
posted on September 13, 2000 07:22:44 PM
Actually, pattaylor, my remark was hardly ad hominem. I have not, for example, called paypaldamon personally a liar - as many have. I do, however, admit to having on more than one occasion laid that accusation at the feet of Paypal itself.
My remark directly criticized the job, not the messenger. And since the "job" is to defend Paypal's actions, I believe I have indeed "stuck to the issue," which is, at least to yours truly, that of Paypal's misrepresentations.
However, since at least you read my remark as personal, I must assume it was open to misinterpretation, and I will ensure that my posts are more clear in future.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Sep 13, 2000 07:26 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 07:35:27 PM
If paypal, "grandfathers" these free accounts, these "grandfathered" accounts would become a desired commodity and would be bought and sold themselves, maybe on Ebay!
This will never happen. Don't count on it.
You will either be assimilated or you will leave. Paypal is likely to sell out, or face bankruptcy in the wake of class-action lawsuits and regulatory investigations. They could go belly up, so I would recommend pulling your money out ASAP. Would any of you trust your bank if they did business the way Paypal has?
Also, there has been a bg "to-do" lately about many dotcoms going out of business or filing bankruptcy. These businesses are having to show profits now, and many are finding that hard to do because of their faulty business models when they started. This free ride had to end eventually. Does anyone have any idea how a company such as Napster makes money? Like with Paypal, I don't see how they can. What has happened was going to happen...
-Del
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill
posted on September 13, 2000 07:59:57 PMwaspstar: Well, it must have something to do with the fact that I am not currently practicing law...
Seriously, though, much of my training was in catching inconsistencies in other people's statements. Ever since law school I have never been able to watch a commercial for ANYTHING without keeping an eye out for that inevitable "fine print" that completely eviscerates every promise made in the rest of the commercial!
G'night folks. Keep fighting the good fight.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 13, 2000 08:35:44 PM
I have been reading all most all day posts about this PayPal issue. I see I'm not the only one feeling betrayed. I decided to look through my emails I've received from them. This one is dated 5/12 announcing the opening of their new CS center.....This is one reason why I feel I've been betrayed!......TAKING CARE OF OUR CUSTOMERS
It's hard to believe, but in just four months well over ONE
MILLION of you have started using PayPal, a free service
from X.com. In fact, PC Data Online (TM) lists PayPal as
the most visited "Finance & Investment" site on the Web.
We're the first, largest, and fastest-growing Internet
payment service, and we owe it all to you! You're telling
friends and colleagues that PayPal is a free, easy, and
secure way to split up the rent or to send some surprise
cash to a buddy on his birthday. That's why as many as
25,000 folks are opening PayPal accounts every day.
In response to our explosive growth, we're excited to report
that we've opened our NEW CUSTOMER SERVICE CENTER in Omaha,
Nebraska. We've already hired more than 200 new
representatives to assist you with any questions or comments
you might have regarding PayPal. It's our way of showing
who we value the most: you. And frankly, you deserve
nothing less. You can read more about our Customer Service
Center and other PayPal news on our announcements page at:
PayPal is the most frequently selected online payment method
for Internet auctions -- over one million daily auctions
accept us on eBay (TM) alone! Buyers are using PayPal
because it's fast, easy and secure, and it lets them pay for
their purchases using their bank account or credit card.
Sellers are using PayPal because it's the simplest, quickest
and most reliable way to receive funds. But don't just take
our word for it -- see what your fellow PayPal users are
saying about us on our Auction Success Stories page at:
And, best of all, PayPal is a FREE SERVICE for both buyers
and sellers alike! Unlike some online payment services
(such as the eBay bill collection service, Billpoint, which
charges some users nearly 4% of the purchase price), PayPal
has absolutely no fees. You see, we earn our revenue from
interest on the balances in PayPal accounts, as well as from
fees that we'll eventually charge to businesses. This lets
us pay for our expenses so we can offer our service
completely free to all consumers...........<p>.....and this is how they ended it......We're proud that you've chosen to use PayPal -- our free,
easy, and secure service. Thanks again for joining forces
with us to make sending and receiving money online as easy
as email!
posted on September 13, 2000 08:41:04 PM
Wouldn't you know it....I've just re-read the letter, and low and below there it is.....buried in 1/2 of a sentence near the end.......You see, we earn our revenue from
interest on the balances in PayPal accounts, as well as from
fees that we'll eventually charge to businesses. ........I beg your pardon, PayPal! You did WARN us didn't you?
posted on September 13, 2000 09:00:06 PM
Well for a change being a Canadian seller pays off. PayPal doesn't work here and even when it does I REALLY don't think I'm going to be signing up. I've survived this long without it.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:29:08 PM
I'm sure glad I haven't verified my account. I see no personal benefit by doing so. There's other companies that can quickly fill paypal's old shoes.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:57:08 PM
Thanks to the person who posted the information about Paypal's referral log. I checked and see that I have referred 9 people to Paypal in the past month for which I have not yet received a bonus. Changing the referral bonus procedure is just another example of Paypal's duplicity.
"Always free for personal use" was not what I agreed to. There was no business-type account and Paypal was clearly targeting eBay sellers as well as buyers. Obviously Paypal thinks they've painted us into a corner, and they're still giving us that "no one is forced, but it is a new rule" bull.
I started using Auction Amigo today to automatically upload my auctions. In the preferences section, I noted that I do not accept credit card payments. I have dropped the Paypal option from my auctions. As soon as my current auctions end, I will close my Paypal account, and explore other options including Yahoo's free payment service.
I am very disappointed in Paypal. This is yet another example of a big company ripping off little guys. Funny thing is, I was looking forward to opening a business account at 1.9% once the shopping cart was implemented. In other words, I agreed that Paypal's new services were worth upgrading on a voluntary basis. Now I simply don't trust them, and I won't allow them to access my bank account.
