posted on September 13, 2000 10:11:52 PM
Redbird107...by paypal stating that auction sellers use the free services they have basically said they are not considering auction sellers to be businesses....they are saying the revenue from the float and fees they will charge businesses are why auction buyers and sellers are able to use the free services....this email shows they were seperating auction sellers and businesses as two different birds.
I bet the problem is this...they thought they would be able to attract big businesses to use their fee services and that never panned out...the only ones who wanted to use paypal were individuals to send money to college children etc AND auction users (both buyers and sellers). So they redifined business to include auction sellers. Before (as this email noted) they did not define buisinesses to include online auction sellers.
posted on September 13, 2000 10:18:25 PMmagazine_guy
"1. Do most folks feel that since the initial offers made by PayPal to auction sellers(always free, no forced upgrades), that at this point PayPal should GRANDFATHER it's existing users in under the origiinal terms and conditions? "
YES!!!!
"2. If PayPal had instead waited until they had completed the addition of more features to their Premium/Business accounts (Web sales, international sales, etc), would most folks have voluntarily upgraded for the increased benefit of these services?"
WELL ... NO. International transfers were promised way back when I joined, before Business accounts were even mentioned. I want INTERNATIONAL! I want to be able to send money overseas instead of buying money orders!
If they have a good shoppping cart, LOTS of businesses will LOVE it and upgrade, but to announce this FORCED upgrade WITH NO NICREASE IN SERVICES and without even the stuff that has been "coming soon" longer than the hype for the next election was damned stupid.
Damon
Unfortunately for you, I have a copy of the email from JUNE, which is reproduced in its entirety below .... there is a promise of NO FLAT FEE on the business accounts and it definitely states that NO ONE WILL BE FORCED TO UPGRADE to a Business/Premier Account.
Now ... explain why I should upgrade? Y'all promised me when the accounts were first offered that no one would be forced to upgrade. Was PayPal lying to me then?
PayPal is proud to announce the unveiling of our new, redesigned website. We've simplified the navigation, improved the
appearance, and -- best of all -- added a host of new features:
* Premier/Business Accounts for businesses, groups,
and individuals
* $100,000 of free insurance on every account
* Easier ways to include a PayPal logo in your
auctions
* Faster, easier bank account transfers
* PayPal for mobile phones
* And Much More!
Check it out at http://www.paypal.com!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NEW! PREMIER/BUSINESS ACCOUNTS
PayPal's new PREMIER/BUSINESS ACCOUNT is the easiest way for
businesses and groups to send and receive money online.
E-commerce has never been easier!
Premier/Business Accounts include all the benefits of your
current PayPal Personal Account PLUS the following PREMIUM
FEATURES:
* Ability to do business under a corporate or group name.
* Exclusive 24-hour-a-day, 7-day-a-week CUSTOMER SERVICE
HOTLINE.
* Automatic sweep of your PayPal balance into your bank
account at the end of each day. This feature is optional
and carries a modest 0.6% fee.
And in the weeks and months ahead, PayPal will be launching many
new features for Business/Premiere Accounts, including:
* Download your transaction history into QuickBooks
or Excel.
* Accept PayPal payments on your own website.
* Make mass payments by uploading a batch file of your
recipients' email addresses.
* Receive interest on your account balances.
* Optional ATM/Debit cards and checks.
* Frequent special promotions, like free listing days on
eBay and double ($10) referral bonuses.
* And, most important of all, Premier/Business Account
members will be FEATURED IN OUR UPCOMING SHOPPING TAB,
where over 2 million PayPal customers will be able to
make instant, online purchases from your business.
Pricing on a Premier/Business Account is only 1.9% on payments received, with NO FLAT FEE. That's less than half of what you'd
pay with other payment services. (For instance, eBay's Billpoint (TM) starts at 3.5% plus $0.35 per transaction.) Plus, all
Premier/Business Account holders continue to get a $5 bonus for every referral, and our $5 signup bonus lets businesses effectively offer a $5 savings to all first-time buyers at no cost!
For businesses and groups already enjoying the use of a Personal Account, it's easy to upgrade to a Premier/Business Account.
Just log in to your account and click the "UPGRADE" button. It takes less than a minute. New users can sign up by going to
https://secure.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_business-register.
Premier/Business accounts are also available to individuals who would like to take advantage of the premium features. However,
no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier Account. Personal Accounts will remain FREE for individual use!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NEW! FREE INSURANCE PROTECTION ON EVERY ACCOUNT
PayPal balances are now even safer since we've insured every
account against unauthorized transactions up to $100,000.
Coverage is provided by Citigroup's Travelers Insurance (TM).
You can read more about our insurance policy at
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/travelers-outside.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NEW! AUTOMATIC AUCTION LOGOS
Attention auction sellers! With PayPal's AutoLink tool, you can automatically insert PayPal logos in all of your auction listings
on eBay (TM), Yahoo! (TM), and Amazon.com (TM). And if you choose the Automatic Daily Updating option, we'll continue to
place your favorite PayPal logo in future auctions. You'll SAVE TIME while making sure that buyers know you accept PayPal. Plus, you'll get $5 referral bonuses for every new user. You'll find these convenient features under the new "Auction Tools" tab, once you log in to your account.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NEW! FASTER, EASIER BANK ACCOUNT TRANSFERS
PayPal is making it even easier to LINK A BANK ACCOUNT to your PayPal account in order to transfer funds electronically. You
can move money into your PayPal account to fund your payments or move money out at any time. Electronic deposits and withdrawals
are ALWAYS FREE!
You'll be pleased to know that we've also made it easier to verify your bank account. In the past, we required you to send
us a voided check before you could transfer bank account funds into your PayPal account. We've now instituted a faster, simpler process that achieves the same level of security. Just log in to your account to check it out!
Use unlimited bank account funding to pay for transactions. PayPal also allows users to fund their account with up to $2,000
of credit card funding every 6 months. (Please note that all users' limits have been reset to $2,000.)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NEW! INTERNATIONAL PAYMENTS
PayPal is now available for citizens of US territories such as Puerto Rico or Guam, as well as for US military personnel and
their families stationed overseas. And coming soon, PayPal will be available for INTERNATIONAL USERS, too. Stay tuned!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NEW! PAYPAL FOR MOBILE PHONES
PayPal users can now send money on-the-go using an Internet-
enabled mobile phone. Just type www.paypal.com or www.X.com (for
some phones all you have to do is type the letter "X" into your
phone's Web browser and log in to your account; there's no
software to download. Splitting up a dinner bill or paying back
a friend for movie tickets was never more convenient! To read
more about PayPal for Cell Phones, go to
https://secure.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/mobile_phone-outside.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NEW! PAYPAL PARTNERS
PayPal is pleased to announce that we've teamed up with some of
the Web's premier sites. These include community leaders eGroups
(TM) and eCircles (TM), and invitation service Evite (TM). In
the online auction market, we're working with AuctionWatch (TM),
GoTo Auctions (TM), and Honesty.com (TM). Visit our press center
at http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/press-outside
for the latest on our partnerships.
Sincerely,
The PayPal Team
**********
And this, from http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=41&thread=499 restates that no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account.
paypalj
posted on June 13, 2000 09:34:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mrjim,
Thank you for your feedback. I've attached a portion of the newsletter we're sending to our customers about our new site and features that addresses your concerns:
Premier/Business accounts are also available to individuals who would like to take advantage of the premium features. However, no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account. Personal Accounts will remain FREE for individual use!
posted on September 13, 2000 10:38:04 PM
When exactly did PayPal come into being? How were the Christmas sales before PayPal? They timed this for the Season and make no bones about it, they timed it with the bottom line in mind. I am letting my auctions right now run out and when I list new ones this is going to be in my description. ***PLEASE NOTE*** "Due to recent, surprise changes in PayPal account policies and seller fees, we no longer accept payment through PayPal. We refuse to pass their charges on to our loyal customers." Thanks to whomever gave me the idea for the first part. I also have the NO PAYPAL logo from Midnight Designs and I intend to use it on everyone of my auctions from here on in. I remember last year when Yahoo/Geocities changed their TOS and claimed ownership of everyones intellectual property on their sites, and a boycott was started. The news media got ahold of it and they changed their TOS. I was a part of that Boycott and it was a liberating feeling when they were brought to their knees. Oddly enough, it was also when Geocities merged with Yahoo that this change came about. The *NEW YUPPIES* that came in had all of these great ideas for a coup, and nearly lost Yahoo/Geocities their backsides. Food for thought!
edited to add: BTW my pending withdrawel of my money is still *pending* and I am thinking it is going to stay that way until I cave in and go for the new Business Account. So in essence, they are blackmailing me to get what is rightfully mine. How many of you have monies still in *pending* status when you click on your account?
[ edited by furkidmom on Sep 13, 2000 10:41 PM ]
posted on September 13, 2000 10:46:04 PM
Thanks to redbird for finding this May, 2000 email from PayPal (before business accounts)- parts of which bear repeating.
****
AUCTION USERS MAKE PAYPAL #1
[b]PayPal is the most frequently selected online payment method
for Internet auctions[/b] -- over one million daily auctions
accept us on eBay (TM) alone! Buyers are using PayPal
because it's fast, easy and secure, and it lets them pay for
their purchases using their bank account or credit card.
Sellers are using PayPal because it's the simplest, quickest
and most reliable way to receive funds. But don't just take
our word for it -- see what your fellow PayPal users are
saying about us on our Auction Success Stories page at:
And, best of all, [b]PayPal is a FREE SERVICE for both buyers
and sellers alike![/b]
******************
A FREE service for both buyers and sellers alike.
PayPal knew full well that at the same moment they were saying "always free," they were processing thousands of auction payments daily. Not only did they know it, they used it to promote themselves to more auction sellers! And now, they have the nerve to try to make these same sellers feel guilty for using their personal paypal accounts for auction payments?
Sorry, it won't wash. Arrogance and hypocracy.
Damon, do your bosses a favor. Go buy them a great book on Crisis Management and the differences between how the Tylenol crisis was handled, and how the Exxon Valdez crisis was handled. Hint: You wanna do what the Tylenol guys did.
(Oh, and buy a copy for the CEO's of Ford and Firestone while you're at the store.)
PayPal, there is so much documentation of bait and switch all over these boards, and in user's email, that you just cannot pull that stuff and expect to get away with it.
GRANDFATHER. You're gonne have to do it eventually, anyway.
Thanks for posting that. I don't see the part about being "reqired" to register. From what I can see it was just he opposite.
Damon, about the host of new features:
We don't need your premium services because the majority of them do not apply to us.
Your free listing days are laughable.. (You give us $.25 for each listing?) Correct me if I am wrong on this... It costs more than $.25 to list an auction over $10. The FREE listings would probably only apply to NON-Business customers.
Receive interest on your account balances...? Another laugh. The amount we would earn off of the interest would be miniscule!
The fact is that PayPal has misled us. No doubt about it. What part of "always free" don't you understand?
posted on September 14, 2000 05:17:03 AM
I want to know the answer to one more question although I doubt I will get it.<P>When you made us "verify" our accounts, you told us to go in and "uncheck" a box which allowed you to enter our bank accounts. Now, where do you go to "recheck" that box as you DO NOT have free reign over my account. I made sure I unchecked the box for auto insertion of the paypal logo in my auctions and I am letting people know in my Congratulatory emails that I am not accepting PayPal. Removal of those logos in existing auctions is forthcoming. <P>I do remember a LONG conversation about the verification process via telephone with PayPal and expressed deep concern about re-entering account info. Now, from all that I am reading, I doubt it had anything more to do with security as it did with PayPal having full access to our accounts under the excuse of security. I was horrified when a buyer questioned my integrity despite my feedback all because it showed I was "unverified" when she tried to send money. How could I have been unverified if PayPal was already wiring funds to my account. They knew full well who I was since there had been NO complaints.<P>Buyers as it is are not bidding unless an item is listed "dirt cheap". They scream at the high prices (although rock bottom starting bids just to get the bidding going). Then they complain about handling costs, shipping costs, and the fact that USPS shipping supplies are fee. They *B* about adding extra costs on for our time and gas expenses and whatever else is the fashion complaint of the moment. Guess they also did not know that UPS is also charging shipper an extra fee not only to deliver to residential customers but now added fees to cover the rising cost of fuel for their truck. We will all be run out of here just trying to pay everyone else's fees.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:30:57 AM
One question: If Paypal is free "only" for
individuals, why is it when a antique dealer or shop buys one of my auctions, they dont have to pay a fee???? They are more of a "business" than I am!!! Answer that one PayPal!
posted on September 14, 2000 08:58:49 AM
I just read the news article on CNet and the CEO of PayPal referenced a published definition of who or what is a business under PP's terms of usage of Personal and Business accounts, and therefore who must, according to PayPal, upgrade to a fee based business account. He goes further to say that this has been "policy" since June.
Has anyone seen this written definition that spells out PP's terms of use for a Personal account as opposed to a business account? I have been looking for this for the past 2 days. I went through the site, and all of the emails I have received from PayPal. The only thing I found was a vague reference to "businesses are required to upgrade to business accounts". I know this document wasn't sent to me, I can't find it anywhere on the site, Damon is no help, so I reached the conclusion that it doesn't exist. Does anyone know where I can find and read a copy of this elusive document ?
[ edited by pineyhurst on Sep 14, 2000 08:59 AM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 09:11:42 AM
unknown - I wonder what would happen if everybody pulled thier money out right now.
Your withdrawal would continue to have a "pending" status 24 hours after the request was made!!! I tried to pull my funds yesterday and they are either experiencing a huge amount of requests and can't process them all fast enough or they are trying to hold me hostage until I upgrade my account to a business one to cover my little $1-$2 profit items. F*%k that!!!
posted on September 14, 2000 09:38:47 AM
I am going to say it one more time. Please file a complaint to the Federal Trade Commission, California Department of Financial Institutions, and Federal Reserve. If you are going to do one, just file with the Federal Trade Commission. It's easy, the burden will be on PayPal not you. Please see my previous post for the contact information and pass it along to others.
I was an examiner for the federal government including consume compliance and credit cards exams. I have examined Citibank, Bank One, Wells Fargo, etc. If any of them used these deceptive practices the government would investigate. There are laws regarding referal fees, disclosures, advertising, etc. That is our recourse and we should all use it.
posted on September 14, 2000 10:38:55 AM
Oh drat. I think I lied. I went into paypal last night and got that annoying notice. Not even reading it, scrolled down to the bottom to see how to get out. There were three buttons. since I am not interested in upgrading, I pushed the non-seller button as the only other alternative.
When I joined paypal, they said it would be free. I don't want to hear what is the definition of free. To me, that means I do not have to pay. They are making money off me already because I keep quite a bit in the account before I transfer to my own personal account. I believe I was not told the truth by paypal. I do believe they played the bait and switch on me. I, do not like to be fooled into advertising for them on my pages (FOR FREE) and then be screwed over.
If the paypal gurus are reading this thread (and guessing I am sure they are) It is not nice to fool anyone, including me. If I am forced to join one or the other program, I will just have to raise my dollar figure on my auctions to cover the expense. This in turn may or may not affect the number of sales that I make. This in turn may or may not affect how much paypal will make. THEN I will not offer paypal. I will find another alternative to take credit cards. Mr. Paypal, there are many other organizations just waiting to take up the slack. Perhaps I have had too much caffeine, but I believe honesty is the only policy and you Mr. Paypal have not been honest with me or anyone else. Take that to the bank!
posted on September 14, 2000 12:24:23 PMdaneta99, here 'tis. Not mine - designed by somebody else who posts here and offered it for free use - but I did resize it so that I think it's in accordance with ebay guidelines in case some SH goon thinks it's promoting Paypal (don't laugh). I've added a clickable link to this thread on AW, which as far as I can see from ebay rules is OK (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). Feel free to use my URL for the logo.
posted on September 14, 2000 01:30:16 PM
Since I have my own credit card processing machine at home I have decided to dump paypal and use www.123pix.com free secure home page/card processing page.
posted on September 14, 2000 01:57:57 PM
Has anyone else noticed that PayPalDamon has been conspicuously absent today? The poor guy is probably laid up in bed with a bleeding ulcer from yesterday's stress.
posted on September 14, 2000 03:09:43 PMFrom their e-mail when I signed up:
PayPal.com is a completely free service that lets users send money to anyone with an email address. Use PayPal.com to settle restaurant tabs with colleagues,pay friends for movie tickets, or buy a baseball card at an online auction - all with the click of a mouse! PayPal charges the money to an existing credit card or bank account. It's faster, safer and easier than mailing a personal check. (emphasis added)
From a June 16th e-mail
For businesses and groups already enjoying the use of a Personal Account, it's easy to upgrade to a Premier/Business Account. Just log in to your account and click the "UPGRADE" button. It takes less than a minute. New users can sign up by going to... (emphasis added)
Premier/Business accounts are also available to individuals who would like to take advantage of the premium features. However, no one will be forced to upgrade to a Business/Premier account. Personal Accounts will remain FREE for individual use! (emphasis added)
Okay, so I know this stuff was said before, but I'm still very surprised at this bombshell.
posted on September 14, 2000 03:20:59 PM
With a little web-surfing, I find one can't short this POS X.Com company since it's privately held and funded by a series of venture capital sources. Its top execs are filthy rich from founding and selling out even earlier enterprises, so likely don't feel they personally have much to lose that's all that important to them. I do notice an announcement that Credit Agricole bank of France was a main source of X.Com funding a couple weeks ago ($30 million) to launch into international expansions of the PP services. Here's their main web page:
http://www.credit-agricole.fr/
Unfortunately, since it's in French (shock theater!) I couldn't tell what a good email address into its system might be. Perhaps some so inclined might send a few emails to those folks, referencing this message board URL, to give those poor French folks a heads-up on how their money's being spent?
with various investment sources that have plowed funds into X.com, including Goldman Sachs, Deutsche Banc Alex Brown, QUALCOMM, and so forth. You never know, somebody reading this and upset about PP's actions here just might have the ear of somebody important in one of PP's sugar daddy investor's offices.
posted on September 14, 2000 03:32:01 PM
I was just reading over everything when thought occured to me. What is the defintion of individual use? That might be where x.com is going to justify making all sellers upgrade. You can bet that a lwayer probably went over everything with a fine tooth comb looking for loopholes. I can just see the light bulb going off in his head.
Individual use! Anyone selling lots of items in auctions isn't using it for indivual use, they are using it for business. Sneaky, underhanded and misleading it might be but I doubt it will be deemed it illegal. It should be interesting to see how this develops.
[ edited by sweil on Sep 14, 2000 03:49 PM ]
into your
