posted on September 14, 2000 08:39:38 AM
This is quite mind boggling...bear with me as I write this, as it might get confusing.
I have two checking accounts; one personal, and one for business. I have one debit card, which is linked only to my personal account, to be used for purchases, etc.
When I signed up with Paypal, I used my business checking account number to be verified, though I put my debit card on file (remember, that card is linked to my personal checking account, not my business account) to pay for any auction purchases.
I made two auction purchases last week, through paypal, to be paid with my debit card, which has been on file with them for a couple of months.
Well, they didn't take those purchases from my debit card; they actually went into my bank account, the one which I gave them to be verified, to pay for these purchases. My bank say's they received 'auto-debit' paperwork from Paypal, some sort of draft, to withdraw the funds. Mind you, the amounts are small, but I didn't give them my bank account info so they could withdraw funds; that is why they have my debit card on file.
I don't think this is within the bounds of the user agreement. Am I wrong...can they do this?
posted on September 14, 2000 08:56:24 AM
I'm a little lost. Isn't that what a debit card is? A card to withdraw from your bank account. When I use mine, it comes straight out of my account. Did I miss something?
posted on September 14, 2000 09:01:55 AM
It seems like they are considering you a business with your EBAY account so are taking it out of your busines account. They have your number and will se it in the way they see fit. I am on the phone right now with Ebay to find out what can be done about PayPal. (I understand what you are saying....they used the Debit card on the wrong account)
Re-read it. I have *two* checking accounts; one business & one personal.
I used the business account to be verified.
The debit card, which is on file with them, is attached to my personal account.
If they had used the debit card on file, the withdrawl would have come from my personal account. Instead though, they just withdrew the funds from the business account, the one I used to be verified.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:09:11 AM
What it says to me is that if you've given them account information, they'll use whatever account they want to, and your "authorization" doesn't mean diddley. I'm not suggesting anything nefarious, just that they can do things you hadn't anticipated because they have your information.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:16:26 AM
"What exactly does "verification" entail, anyway?"
After you give them your bank account #, they deposit (twice) a few pennies in, and you have to report back to them the correct amounts...and this verifies you.
I agree with this, too:
"I'm not suggesting anything nefarious, just that they can do things you hadn't anticipated because they have your information."
I can't imagine paying for a service that does this.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:21:06 AM
Okay, this is scary! I thought they said they would NEVER go into your bank account unless you specifically told them to!
posted on September 14, 2000 09:23:47 AM
Well....when I pay for auctions via paypal, on the very last screen there is a pull down menu. That pull down has both my credit card and my bank account. I have to choose which one I want to pay with. My checking account is the default. If I don't manually choose to pay with my credit card, the purchase is automatically taken from my bank account. Is it possible you didn't choose the credit card, and the default (bank account) was used?
posted on September 14, 2000 09:27:25 AMI'm a little lost. Isn't that what a debit card is? A card to withdraw from your bank account. When I use mine, it comes straight out of my account. Did I miss something?
As I read it, the debit card is connected only to Account A. Julesy used Account B merely for verification, and indicated that Account A, through her debit card, was to be used to pay for purchases.
IOW, Paypal did NOT use the debit card. It used a completely different account, whose information was given to them solely for VERIFICATION.
I am horrified, but I am not surprised. This was my concern regarding the entire verification process. I can't wait to see Paypal's justification dance for this one.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:27:48 AM
Julesy, when you go to pay now, the screen shows a roll down "choice" box and I saw that the default on mine is the bank account number that I used to verify my PayPal account!
In order to pay with my credit card I had to *manually* select my card from the roll down screen, even though I had originally set up the account to have funds withdrawn from my CC. Had I not done this the amount would have been withdrawn from my bank account. What's more, it always goes back to the bank account and I can't figure out how to set the default to the CC.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:30:04 AM
No, I chose my debit card.
In fact, I have a *regular* credit card on file, too, which I believe is my default. I do not know why they chose to go into my checking account, but I don't like it one bit.
I had my account with the visa debit card verified. Before the automatic verification I would have had to jump through the hoops you are describing to be able to use the visa debit card.
All the advertising says "Use it just like a Visa." Except when having someone else access your account for automatic payments. IE: utility bills, mortgage payments, paypal, etc.
You'll need to have your debit card account verified before Paypal will be able to electronically pull money out.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:36:05 AM
Well (sorry I'm so cynical) I suspect that PayPal wanted to do a transaction where they didn't have to pay the credit card fee for the money, so they chose to take it right out of the bank account rather than charge the debit card.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:42:27 AM
Mermaid --
I have never had a problem using my debit card through Paypal. I had two purchases in August that went through smoothly.
****
Just to make it clear also...I don't mind paying for these purchases, obviously. I am glad they got their money. I just don't like how they did it.
I have my accounts set up the way they are for a reason...most importantly so I can keep my books straight. I don't like having my system screwed around with.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:54:20 AM
Did you send PayPal a voided check or sign anything that would authorize Paypal to do automatic withdrawals from your checking account?
I would write to my bank and tell them that I did not authorize automatic withdrawals from this account by PayPal. I would make it clear that no further automatic withdrawals are authorized. In fact I would make sure the bank understands that I was affirmatively telling the bank that Paypal is not authorized to make automatic withdrawals from this account under any circumstances without my express written approval per transaction, (just in case the bank has an exception policy.) An exception policy allows your bank to honor automatic withdrawal request unless you affirmatively tell them not to honor the requests either by transaction or by recurring transactions.
A lot of banks have policies that allow them to honor transactions on the basis that if you didn't tell them not to honor the transaction then you consent is assumed. If an entity who wants to do an automatic withdrawal has your account information the bank accepts that as tacit consent that you have authorized the entity to make an automatic withdrawal. Some credit card companies do this too.
posted on September 14, 2000 10:04:08 AM
Well, so much for Damaon's little song & dance about never removing funds from your account without your permission.
BTW Julesy, did that item from Belgium arrive yet? Just curious as to the UPS charge.
posted on September 14, 2000 10:15:04 AMPineyhurst --
No, never sent a voided check, etc. They have my account number so I could be verified and have money deposited.
Reddeer --
It did; a lovely little ring from Elk the antique jeweler! And no, there were no extra customs fees or brokerage fees due. I only pre-paid the $20 which covered 3 day shipping, and I guess any extra fees levied by UPS. I think I got off cheap!
The first time I tried to use my Visa debit card with paypal I received a screen explaining that I had to print out a piece of paper, fill it in, and mail it to paypal with a voided check, just to "allow" them to take funds from my account. This was before the online verification.
All I wanted to do was send money to my sister for a niece's concert ticket and not have my credit card charged, but just have the money taken out of my checking account.
Hmmmm it's curious that they were able to take funds from your account without the verification "process."
posted on September 14, 2000 12:14:27 PM
Here's what probably happened; have to be careful....... Since the verification process when you go to pay for something thru paypal when you click continue make sure you choose which one you want them to use...... I noticed that yesterday...... since my verification the first is the checking account that will pay until you select one of your other options....... I have two credit cards I use for payment and they no longer are the primary but your checking account is......
So I figure you did not notice that you were to choose one or the other and it automatically took your 'verified' account to pay your amounts.
You have to choose which one you want it to use to pay for your items.
posted on September 14, 2000 01:19:38 PMDid you send PayPal a voided check or sign anything that would authorize Paypal to do automatic withdrawals from your checking account?
Didn't have to. When he verified the bank account, he gave PayPal explicit permission to dip into the account at any time for any reason. PayPal says this ain't so. Some other users on these boards say it ain't so. I say it is so and now we have seen the proof. EVERYONE that verified a bank account prior to PayPal changing the TOU gave PayPal BLANKET permission to access their verified account. And now we knowthat they will indeed take advantage of that permission.
posted on September 14, 2000 02:59:54 PM
I spoke to Paypal this afternoon, but what I am hearing leaves much to be desired.
According to *them* I de-activated my debit card. This is simply untrue. I never did any such thing. I use my debit card for everything...from ebay fees to billpaying, etc.
Now, mysteriously, my debit card is not on my list of payment options, at all. It has simply been removed, another thing I did not do.
When I asked why they didn't instead use the credit card I also have on file, the rep got flustered and played dumb, as if they couldn't see that I have a credit card on file.
My account has been adjusted; changes were made that I *did not* make. I am going to pursue this with my bank, to find out exactly what was submitted to them from Paypal.
Needless to say, my conversation with Paypal left me with more questions than answers.
posted on September 14, 2000 03:06:14 PM
There's too much funny business going on. I closed out of them after finally getting them to complete a withdrawal.
Your bank won't be able to stop their accessing your accounts before the fact, but does have a mechanism of recovery after the fact as you know.
I don't think it's real smart to trust them with money right now.
posted on September 14, 2000 03:08:20 PM
PayPal TOS
8. Electronic Transfers. Upon your request, X.com will make electronic transfers via the Automated Clearing House (ACH) system to and from your bank account. You agree that such requests constitute authorization for such transfers. If you request an electronic transfer from your bank account, you grant X.com the right to validate the authenticity of your bank account by making two small deposits to your bank account at X.com's own expense. Your bank account and your PayPal account will be considered verified once you correctly enter the deposit amounts on the X.com website.
X.com will never make electronic transfers from your bank account without your explicit permission. Furthermore, X.com provides you unlimited protection against unauthorized withdrawals from your bank account.
posted on September 14, 2000 03:20:15 PM"Your bank won't be able to stop their accessing your accounts before the fact, but does have a mechanism of recovery after the fact as you know.
I am glad you said this, Krs, because I was unsure about something. When I spoke to my bank this morning, they said an auto debit, which is what Paypal used, is normally set up as a monthly debit, not a one time thing. He said that is how the banks usually see them...people use them to pay monthly bills, like a phone bill, etc.
When I asked if this was set up to be a monthly occurence, my bank told me they couldn't be sure.
I am not putting Paypal in my new auctions, and will abide by my TOS for anyone who wants to use it in my remaining auctions. But, I won't use it for purchases, and as soon as I tie up any lose ends, I am through with them.
