posted on September 14, 2000 04:08:50 PM
This was all part of a brilliant scam. Through all the users we attracted as PayPal's loyal army, X.com and its investors are going to get rich. They would have never been able to do it without us! Wall Street is going to value the number of users and potential revenue streams and ability to potentially cross-sell other financial products and services. Maybe they should let us by shares at the IPO price based on the number of users we referred whether or not we received a bonus because of course they never sent us an e-mail or disclosure that we were now only receiving referal bonuses if the new user verified a bank account. They are geniouses if they can pull this off. The only way to hold these people accountable is to file a complaint.
By the way, of course PayPalDamon is absent. I doubt the lawyers are going to let him speak anymore. Everything he has said is evidence from a representative of the company. People, this is more serious than you think, the government would investigate these issues and you bet there are other powerful financial companies that would love to see X.com squashed. As much as I used to like them, maybe they deserve it. I know I would not have attracted as many users as I did through logos, e-mails, invoices, etc. if I knew the truth. It's not about that their rates are competitive, it just leaves a sour taste in your mouth when you know you were scammed.
posted on September 14, 2000 04:18:35 PM
Here's an interesting read.
Elon Musk is the CEO of X.com.
[url]http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/1999/08/17/elon_musk[url]
I'm not surfing or fishing. Most of the time I'm lurking.
UBB & I do NOT get along!
[ edited by srfnfshn on Sep 14, 2000 04:19 PM ]
[ edited by srfnfshn on Sep 14, 2000 04:25 PM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 04:34:46 PM
Interesting article on the founder, thanks.
Another way to hold a company accountable is through the media. Anyone who has any articles written on PayPal, consider contacting the publisher or author of the article with details regarding PayPal's deception, even refer them to these message boards. This should be easy since most publications are on-line, send them an e-mail.
This would definitely make an interesting follow-up article for any publication that has covered them in the past. And there are certainly critics out there who would present this as it is, a get rich scam; we were used by Elon Musk. No legitimate financial services company could have used these tatics and got away with it. Trust, me they are going to make a fortune off this deception!
posted on September 14, 2000 04:52:13 PM
Taken from the homepage of Scott Loftesness 1999-Present: Advisor, Confinity, Inc./X.com
"A successful entrepreneur has three personal characteristics:
First, the dream and the will to found a kingdom...
Second, the will to conquer, the impulse to fight, to succeed for the sake of not the fruits of success, but of success itself...
Third, the joy of creating, getting things done, of simply exercising one's energy and ingenuity."
-- Joseph Schumpeter
posted on September 14, 2000 05:00:00 PM
after reading the thread called "Serious PayPal Problem" here on AW, I filled my compaint with the FTC. That did it for me. The straw that broke the camels back. In the section where you write your complaint this is what I wrote:..............PayPal has deceived the auction community (eBayers in particular) with their "bait n switch" and strong arm tactics. They made promises of providing services to buyers and sellers for FREE FOREVER. I have an email they sent out on 5/20/00 stating just that. Now they will start charging for their services. They assured us (as many were wondering how they planned to make any money) that they would make their money on the "float". Then in June they sent out an email introducing new services and NO ONE WOULD BE FORCED TO UPGRADE TO A BUSINESS OR PREMIER ACCOUNT. (I have this email too.) Then in July there was yet another email they sent out, again singing praises of their new services that were in the works. (I have this email too!) THEN this week, when users went to access their accounts to make transfers or what ever, they were UNABLE to go beyond a pop up screen that required you to choose one of three buttons in order to go any further. If you chose the Business or Premier button you were automatically upgraded to that service. INSTANTLY! No other screens to read more about it or to give your okay. I feel I have been LIED to and BETRAYED! I have requested my whole $8.00 to be transferred from my acct. and will no longer reference them (for free I might add) in my auctions. Oh, I forgot to mention how they used strong arm tactics to get users to get their checking accounts "verified"...but not enough space here. They promised that they would NEVER deduct anything out of your checking acct. without your consent. (That was the promise they made to get you to "verify" your checking account.) Well, just read a thread where they did just that to an eBayer. Contact me if you would like more info, or copies of the three emails I referenced. There are countless threads on the web pertaining to this. We, the eBay community built them. We took the chance on this "new" way of making payments, and now they are not holding up their end of the bargain.
I'm back from making rounds on other boards. There are clearly a lot of concerns and questions about PayPal's recent reminder message. I can’t answer all of them in one post, but I want to address some of your most important concerns.
We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments. When people started using it for e-commerce, we evolved as a company, expanded our features, and in June created Business Accounts (for companies) and Premier Accounts (for individual entrepreneurs). We told our users that we wouldn't force people to upgrade, but that didn't mean it was OK for business users to violate our terms of use and conduct their commerce with a PayPal Personal Account. That's why we sent out an email in July that reminded business users of our policy.
While 250,000 of our users did understand what our terms of use required and decided to upgrade to or open a Premier or Business Account, a number of users either honestly weren't aware of our policy or else chose to ignore it. Since we assume that most people like to play by the rules and hence wouldn't expect PayPal to continue to subsidize their auctions with free credit card processing, customer service, and fraud protection, we sent the login page as a reminder to our active users. That's all it was, just a reminder of a policy that we've publicized before -- not a new one. It wasn’t meant for someone who occasionally sells personal items online; it was meant for those who are part-time or full-time sellers. We're sorry if the page seemed abrupt or ominous to some of you. It certainly wasn't intended to be. We were just trying to make sure that you all knew about our existing "business use" policy.
We also wanted to be straightforward and notify you that we're considering a new policy to enforce our terms of use. We hope we won’t have to, but if we do, we’ll strive to be fair and we'll be sure to announce the new policy through emails and content on our website at least two weeks before we implement it. Contrary to what has been reported on some threads, no policy has yet been determined; we have not decided on a specific transaction limit, or even whether this would be the best approach. We can say this: We don't intend to surprise anyone by automatically upgrading their account or shutting them down. We may have to limit costly functionality on Personal Accounts (like the ability to accept unlimited credit card payments), but everyone will have a choice, and as we’ve said all along, no one will be forced to upgrade.
Please understand that PayPal can’t subsidize large volumes of credit card transactions -- especially since we'll be giving a big part of the float back to our users starting next month in the form of income on funds left in your PayPal account. So, if you're selling goods to make a profit, we're asking you to play by the rules and upgrade to the account that is most applicable to you (either Premier or Business). We want to make online payments safe and easy for everyone, but we need your help to do this.
If you have thoughts or concerns on what our policy should be, please email us your suggestions (mailto:[email protected]). Since I can't possibly respond to every specific comment or question on the boards, please also use this email for any questions you may have. I will make sure that the whole team (including management) sees your comments, and we will try to answer every question as soon as possible.
Thanks again for your comments, and for caring about PayPal. We appreciate your feedback.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:19:12 PM
Flash Flash RATS
Actually, I think there may be a very interesting "bigger picture" at work here. X.Com is presently backed by a bunch of Vulture... errr *Venture* Capitalist funds. However, there's no doubt the DOT-COM success formula is to build things up then pitch out a very well-publicized IPO onto the stock market... at which point even the secretaries of outfits like PayPal are vested with options and become millionaires if the company still exists in a year or two when they're allowed to cash in the stock.
This is just a guess, but I sort of suspect that a company under an active and visible investigation by the feds and the state of California might not be all that attractive an IPO. Especially.... if one of the clearly possible outcomes might be that they'd be forced to grandfather in all their participants as of about NOW as "free forever." Maybe PP and Eggsdotcom sort of outsmarted themselves throwing all that money at the net commerce community to sign up nearly ALL possible participants in less than a year? Now there's nobody much to add who wasn't promised "free forever"!
This is getting more interesting, the more I think about it, but of course it IS essential for some government watchdogs to see a problem here and get on this case...
posted on September 14, 2000 07:22:06 PM
>>>This is getting more interesting, the more I think about it, but of course it IS essential for some government watchdogs to see a problem here and get on this case...>>>
posted on September 14, 2000 07:31:31 PM
Damon -- If Paypal will always be free for person-to-person transfers, that must mean that those of us who sell on eBay are no longer persons, or that Paypal has decided to treat us as something less than human beings.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:53:35 PM
Why is Paypal so resistant to defining what is and isn't a business account? I think it's a straight forward question that deserves an answer.
If Paypal would define what represents a business I think a lot of this uproar would stop because it would be in black and white. For example...More than 30 auction transactions a day, week, month equals a business account, no argument. The arguments seem to stem from Paypal not defining what constitutes a business account from a personal account. This means that people are giving their own interpretations to whether or not they are a business and then risking whether or not Paypal agrees with them.
posted on September 14, 2000 07:55:32 PM"We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments."
Again with that word "always". Forgive me if I'm wrong, but originally "you" [meaning PayPal] didn't say ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about person-to-person payments vs. other types of payments. You simply said "PayPal will always be free". Period. The personal/business distinction was NEVER MENTIONED until this past June.
You changed your terms in June, breaking the original promise you made to induce people to sign up with your services. Fine. Whatever. It happens all the time, and you should consider a succesdsful career in politics. But would please stop LYING about it now??? Enough with this "always" crap!
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 14, 2000 08:01:58 PM
"We also wanted to be straightforward and notify you that we're considering a new policy to enforce our terms of use."
"[A]s we’ve said all along, no one will be forced to upgrade."
Your terms require certain people to upgrade to a business acount, and you are "considering" a way to "enforce" those terms. Which is to say you plan on forcing people to upgrade.
Next time, Damon, at least have the decency to put these sentences in separate parapgraphs so it's not QUITE as obvious that you hold us and our intellects in such utter contempt.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Sep 14, 2000 08:03 PM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 08:34:43 PM
My take on this, for what it is worth. When I signed up with PayPal, this is what I read and understood:
[quote]And, best of all, PayPal is a FREE SERVICE for both buyers and sellers alike! Unlike some online payment services (such as the eBay bill collection service, Billpoint, which charges some users nearly 4% of the purchase price), PayPal has absolutely no fees.[/quote]
Bold emphasis is mine.
I am a seller. In the beginning, I was told it was free. My side of the agreement has NOT changed. I will NOT pay 1.9% + 25¢ per transaction - no way - no how. One $5 transaction would remove another 35 cents from my profits along with eBay fees I'm already paying --- AND what goes to pay the tax man. It ain't going to happen PayPal. No way. No how. Not a dime
We were lied to. in it's early correspondence with us, PayPal used the word "ALWAYS" in front of the word FREE quite often. I don't know what your definition of the word "ALWAYS" is, but my dictionary says:
[quote]al·ways
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English alwayes, from alwey
Date: 14th century
1 : at all times : INVARIABLY
2 : FOREVER, PERPETUALLY[/quote]
My take on this is they should never have told us it would "ALWAYS" be free. They made that statement/promise, not me. They are breaking it a promise, their own agreement - with me and every other person who signed up with PayPal in the early days. No matter how many times Damon tells up we were not lied to, WE WERE! His insistance that we were not lied to amounts to just one more lie on top of the growing heap.
I will keep my account active for a while longer until my current auctions (a whooping 10) close, and then I'll no longer offer PayPal as an option. I am luck to get maybe 10 to 15 buyers who will use it per week - ON A GOOD WEEK. I am in business, sure, but PayPal is not going to receive any of my hard earned revenue. Not a single dime.
And for all those who are signing up for business accounts - you've been fleeced once and I guarantee you they'll continue to do it again. And yet they continue to say we are still the lowest cost way to accept credit cards. But that statement in no way guarantees they will remain in that position. I predict continued fee increases in the future and who knows when that will end. As I said, you've been fleeced (and lied to) at least once. Be prepared to be fleeced (and lied to) in the future. I, for one, will NOT bend over for them.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:34:52 PM
Paypal Damon says "We have always said that PayPal would be free for person-to-person payments. "
Damon- see if you can follow this:
I'm (debatably) a person, at least I was this morning.
I sell my Judge Dredd book on Ebay to another person-
That is Person to Person- right? It sure as hell ain't Business to person.
I'm not a business- I use Ebay to augment my real life job. 20 auctions a week does not make me a business (if you think it does- you go support yourself on 20 small auctions a week.)I use ebay to augment my RL job. AUGMENT- it's not a job, it's a HOBBY.
Why do you steadfastly refuse to say what Paypal's definition of a business is?
I'm not a business, I will never be, a business. When you finally honour your promises of Paypal available in canada in the year 2010, I won't be signing up.
Your refusal to clarify this one small point, despite being asked about a hundred times speaks volumes.
I refuse to pay for a business account when I'm clearly not a business.
Come clean- tell us exactly what your definition of a business is? If you think i am you need a new dictionary.
I was anxiously awaiting PayPal to be available up here- not any more- I simply don't trust you and the people you represent.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:36:55 PM
I've been purusing all the auction related boards for the last 48 hours and thought I would leave my 2 cents worth here as well. I logged onto Paypal yesterday like ya'll did and found the popup screen that basically forced me to choose a Premier or Business account. The only other option was "I am not a seller" and whether I sell one item or 500 on Ebay .. I guess that means I am a seller. There was no clear cut definition of what a 'seller' is... I was a bad girl and hit the "I am not a seller" button .. got into my account and transferred all the funds sitting there .. which are STILL after more than 24 hours in pending status. Never before has this happened .. could there be any correlation? I think probably the biggest reason why we are all waiting for our funds to process is because everyone who had anything in Paypal over the last 48 hours pulled their money .. thus slowing their transfer cogs to a slow grind. The rep I talked to tonight attempted to explain this to me in 'detail' saying it could take as much as 4 days to a week for the funds to go through Paypal's funds processing machine .. and be sent to my bank. Odd this hasn't happened this way till today. I also today reviewed the benefits of the premier account and thought I would click through the sign up screens to see what they asked for .. to my shock, there were not 'ok to upgrade' screens .. once you click that sucker its a DONE deal. I called Paypal using the toll free number that was suddenly available to me as a Premier user and reached "Paul" .. who immediately.. almost before I could ask my question .. began defending Paypal and their huge popularity, and loyal customer base. I asked him why he was so defensive and if it had anything to do with the glut of messages on all the boards on the net and he said most matter-o-factly .. "I don't know about any problems with Paypal customers, have had only 6 or 7 calls from people who want to change back or to complain and don't know anything about the boards you are talking about." I mentioned Mr. PaypalDamon to him and he had no clue who this person was or if or why he was representing Paypal. He told me when I finally got to ask my question.. that the only way I could change my account back to Personal status was to call them on the phone to do it; there's no option on the site to do that although you can upgrade by ONE click of a mouse. I imagine in changing back, my account will be flagged to watch in the future to see if I am indeed a 'business/seller' or a personal user. I asked him why some people got the popup screen and other didn't and said I thought they must have flagged users who use the confirmation emails there or had lots of transactions.. he didn't deny this but didn't verify it either .. he did say that was 'probably' so .. He also said that paypal just could not afford to carry all of you folks taking advantage of the 'free' accounts when you were in fact sellers. Don't you just feel like a heel to be told that.. when they told you long ago that this service would always be free to you to buy or sell? Its pretty bad customer service for the right hand there at Paypal to not know what the left hand is doing and that is what appears to be happening. I felt that "Paul" at paypal was patronizing me and giving me a canned speech that he had in front of him after this outcry by the auction community. He did tell me though that they want to hear from ALL of you .. your ideas, complaints and comments about their new TOS. I told him the automatic pay thing sucked.. it was tiny .. and had no text with it.. very easy to pass up in an auction .. and if they were going to provide that to all their paying customers.. they better make a better mousetrap. The bottom line here is .. don't EVEN click on the upgrade unless you want it .. there are not confirmation screens to accept your choice (like they provide for all your auction confirmation emails and withdrawal of funds) .. they just DO it.. its over.. a done deal .. and you have to call them to change it.. AND.. you are only allowed to do that ONE time. He told me they would allow a user to call only once to change from a premier or business account to a personal one. Interesting isn't that you can upgrade to your heart's content but you are being treated like a bad child .. if you mess up and want to change back. I still have my Premier account .. and I'm going to see how long it takes for these new and 'exciting' services to come into affect and if they are worth the 1.9% fee on every auction (which .. by the way .. begins the very MOMENT you upgrade) and the additional 25 cents per auction that will take affect on Oct. 1.. verified by "Paul". When he told me about the additional 25 cents, he spent more time justifying what Paypal did .. rather than providing customer service to me as a new Premier customer. It frightens me when a representative who answers their toll free 24 hour customer service phone has NO clue what's been happening on these boards for the last 2 days .. this is pure unadulterated BS as far as I'm concerned. Hmmm this was a bit more than 2 cents .. but cheaper than the 28 cents I was charged tonight for my closing auction and the 25 cents that will be added to auctions beginning Oct 1.. by the way.. what's up with that?? Where's the 'deal' with free posting days with this new 'fee' thingie? 25 cents saved on ebay .. 25 cents goes right in Paypal's pocket ... free posting day my 'hiney'!
posted on September 14, 2000 08:39:05 PM
Hi Barry,
Terms??? I read 3 today:
CEO: a business is anyone who sells.
BRep: A business is more than 30 transactions a day.
SRep: A business is 20 to 30 transactions a month.
And the hits just keep on comming...Did you also notice that PPD added this cutie to his long post for today?
Some sellers may be required ( but not forced, of course) to upgrade to a Premier accounts?
Personal accounts: God knows what the terms are for this account.
Premier Account: Some sellers yet undefined
Business Account: Businesses and some sellers yet undefined.
Wanna bet that casual and part time sellers will be required (but not forced, of course) to upgrade to Premier accounts and be told that this is in recognition of the fact that they are not businesses? Some bone to be tossed huh?
All I know is that I have an account that was advertised as always free and/or never a fee so none of this nonsense will apply to me.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:46:47 PMIDtator:He told me when I finally got to ask my question.. that the only way I could change my account back to Personal status was to call them on the phone to do it; there's no option on the site to do that although you can upgrade by ONE click of a mouse
That's interesting--especially as our own beloved PayPalDamon told me simply to email PP using the 24Hr Customer Service addy & ask them to change me back to a personal account. I will be interested to see what the reaction to my email is.
posted on September 14, 2000 08:50:33 PM
Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past Cut and Past .....I can do that.
But I still don't know why the chicken crossed the road.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:02:20 PMPayPalDamon says: When people started using it for e-commerce, we evolved as a company, expanded our features, and in June created Business Accounts (for companies) and Premier Accounts (for individual entrepreneurs).
Excuse me?
Read it again: When people started using it for e-commerce....
Hellloooo. Yooo hoooo, PayPal. YOU promoted it for e-commerce. You were all over these OAI boards like white on rice, telling us all how wonderous and FREE FREE FREE this damn thing was. You had our bidders spamming us. You had some sellers spamming their bidders and other sellers, just to get the lousy $10/$5.
Don't you DARE come in here and say "when people started using it for e-commerce". What a huge crock of doo doo. YOU promoted it to use for e-commerce. And YOU had US promoting it for use in e-commerce.
AND - for what it's worth - I attempted to withdraw the funds I had sitting in the account last night. I have never ever had to wait - the thing has always said "completed" right away, every single transfer I have made. 24 hours later, it's still in pending status. Well, tough, PayPal. I want my money. It's not my fault you guys were too cocky and thought your user base was stupid - it's not my fault so many of your customers are bailing out. I want the money that is rightfully mine.
On one of your passes through here- instead of dropping your Ebayesque meaningless rehashes of all your previous postings- why don't you try ANSWERING a couple questions. You haven't answered boo!
-----------------------------------
SMW said "EON: What paypal lacks in creativity....."
You're wrong there- I find their rationalizations and twistings of things they said VERY creative. They're inventing a whole new language with brand new definitions of words like "business", "always", "enforcing isn't the same as requiring".
If it wasn't so sad it'd be funny.
-------------------------
A seagull just flew passed by my window as I was typing this. Reminded me of Damon flying by, dropping a smelly deposit, and flying off again.
A perfect metaphor I thought.
[ edited by vorlon4 on Sep 14, 2000 09:11 PM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 09:19:20 PM
My wife said, "I told you so!"
I got even more pissed, and now I'm not getting any tonight.
But that's okay... PayPal already gave it to me.
[ edited by borgt on Sep 14, 2000 09:20 PM ]
[ edited by borgt on Sep 14, 2000 09:20 PM ] Because I'm too tired to type!
[ edited by borgt on Sep 14, 2000 09:21 PM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 09:27:07 PM
"When people started using it for e-commerce, we evolved as a company"
When did PayPal not know that eBay sellers were in e-commerce ? Before or after PayPal started courting eBay sellers to use the service?
Do you believe that Paypal could tout 3M members if it hadn't been for eBay sellers doing the PR work and getting people to sign up? True a lot got fees, but the average cost for an internet company to get a customer is $18.00 to $35.00. So PayPal paid the $$ to the eBay sellers rather than a company like Doubleclick. A bargain for PayPal and without a doubt greater results and in a shorter period of time than an ad campaign.
Paypal has always known eBay sellers are in e-commerce. There was no epiphany in a Board room one day. No one stood up and said "All of these people who are using PayPal are auction sellers and are in e-commerce, how could we have missed it!"
So don't try to go there...
I was of the opinion that I was willing to pay some fees, but I have reconsidered.
I was promised always free for sellers and buyers and that is the what I expect. Telling me now that PayPal can't afford the transactions is not my problem.
Plus this poor mouthing from PayPal/Xcom which is backed by DuestcheBank is insulting.
Maybe you never learned the first rule of holes. When you find youself in one, stop digging and get out.
posted on September 14, 2000 09:39:21 PM
Frogleg: Perhaps... but maybe the chicken is trying to cross the road so it won't get mowed down standing on the side of the road.
posted on September 14, 2000 10:04:35 PM
I am a very small fry seller. I run 7 - 10 auctions a week, Every auction starts under $10.00. I pay eBay on average $20.00 a month in fees and commisions. This is my part-time income. I do not make thousands of dollars, or even $500.00 a month, on average my income (net) is generally $150.00 per month.<br>
Most of my items sale for $5.00 - $20.00. Maybe once or twice a month a item will do better than expected. I operate on a very narrow profit margin. <br>
The only reason I signed on was the free services. I wanted to give my buyers a way to pay using cc transactions. And since I also buy items for my own personal use, I wanted a way to pay using my CC. I do not need or want any of the services offered by the Premier or Business Accounts.<br>
It seems to me what is needed is a account geared for small business or hobbist if you prefer. Either charge us a flat rate or flat percentage, based on the ending price, not both. Truthfully I do not like paying for services I do not need or want.<br>
I have read all 12 pages. I will sleep on the subject, but tomorrow I think I will pull the Paypal line from my auctions, e-mails and alter my terms to say why. I will then close my account. It was said before, and I will say it again, I survived on Checks and Money orders, I will do so again. <br> Sue
