posted on September 14, 2000 04:20:20 PM
Problem is, PPD, that I didn't request to use any such feature, besides making a purchase with my debit card, which is something I have done before with no problem. I *did* choose to use my debit card, not any other account or default setting.
I wasn't advised of anything as it went through; it proceeded like a normal transaction. Just like other transactions I had done with my debit card.
Yet, your employer auto-debited the account *not* attached to the debit card.
Funny business, indeed.
spelling
[ edited by Julesy on Sep 14, 2000 04:24 PM ]
Of course it is funny business when there is no explicit authorization from the owner of the account.
BTW: You may do well to read the opinions expressed by a business acct rep today on the OTWA.
His script doesn't sound at all like the one you have.
The fundamental problem is clear now. Paypal doesn't have a clue and everyone makes up TOS as they go along.
I have read 3 versions today. One from your CEO in a news report, one version from a business account rep, and yet another from a customer service rep.
CEO: A business account is anyone who sells.
BRep: A business account is 30 or more transactions a day.
CSRep: A business account is 20 to 30 transactions a month.
posted on September 14, 2000 04:24:55 PM
You tell him Jules!!! I'm sitting here debating whether or not to remove my bank account from the service or not while I debate whether or not to kill it completely. I'm just afraid that if I remove my bank account, the withdrawal I requested 36 hours ago won't go through. AARRGGHH!!! I don't need this aggravation.
posted on September 14, 2000 05:21:28 PM
OTWA is another online auction message board (Online Traders Web Alliance). I'm sure I'm not allowed to post the URL here, but if you do a web search you'll find it.
posted on September 14, 2000 05:46:29 PM
Julsey,
Please keep us posted.
It certainly behooves Damon & Paypal to get this type of thing off the boards as quickly as possible.
Many times we don't find out HOW an issue was resolved. The thread simply scrolls off the page...
posted on September 14, 2000 07:48:47 PM
Making fun of someone's name is unbelievably low. I thought the old nasty AW had disappeared, but I see it still rears its head sometimes. Can we all be grown-ups here?
posted on September 15, 2000 07:12:33 AM
Julesy, after reading your delima here yesterday, that was the last straw for me with PayPal. I finally went ahead and filed a complaint with the FTC. Ya know, I consider my meazly 1 person operation (out of a bedroom) a legitimate business. It's not what PayPal is asking, it's how they asked. It all started with the "verify" issue last month when their red flag flashing in front of one of MY customer's face stating I was "UNVERIFIED" and that caused my new customer to have reservations about me. I have over 500 FB! And that red flag flown by PayPal cast a shadow on MY credibility! So thanks I got for advertising their icon on my auctions. I finally relented and "verified" my X.com checking acct. with them. These are both companies that were easy come, and can be easy go just as quickly for me. Then, earlier this week with the pop up FORCING you to choose a button...well, straw #2.....and THEN your post with your problem....that did it for me. Three strikes you're out PayPal! I do not trust PayPal any longer. Enough is enough! Thanks for sharing Julesy!
posted on September 15, 2000 04:40:31 PM
In proper bird flipping, does one hold down ALL the fingers and just have the middle one extended, or does one bend only the first knuckle, with the middle finger extended?
posted on September 15, 2000 06:03:16 PM
Not a peep, Reddeer. Only a cursory email last night to tell me my 'info' was being passed on. He probably passed it on to the guy who comes up with all those cut and paste thingamabobs.
Maui -- I think proper 'bird' etiquette say's one must do the latter of the two you mentioned. It makes for a more affectual flipping.
posted on September 16, 2000 01:29:12 AMJulesy ........ Ok, thanks for the update. One would think that with all the flack PP is getting at the moment, they would have been trying their damndest to get right back to you with a full explanation, I guess not?
I had a few problems with Billpoint when I started up & I must say their CS was lightning fast in getting back to me & solving my problem.
6 months from now who knows, maybe they'll be just like PP & won't give a damn?
posted on September 16, 2000 03:14:36 AM
Hmmm... Thats different.
We've never had issue w/ validation issues. A normal merchant account requires as validation (mail order):
2 years of back tax info
2 years of full financial/sales disclosure.
Multiple credit references.
Point Of sale references.
Consumer Reference.
They even come in and take pictures of offices and inventories/facilities.
Thats for the consumers protection and that of the various banks.
I have NO idea why they would draft from your business account. Thats interesting. Perhaps the debit card processing failed and they went to it secondary. Some debit cards jsut wont process without whats called a FORCE or a PIN number. Forces also happen as overdrafts on credit cards. Your card's maxed out. You make a purchase someplace and it declines. They can call the merchant processor and attempt a force. That can cause an overdraft and wella... You get a whatall $10-$15, $25 surcharge for being over the credit limit. BUT! And consumers DONT realize it when this in PARTICULAR occurs that it gives a bank a good reason to consider you higher risk and up that old interest rate
OOOPS.
A debit card is generally not supposed to be used as a credit card. When you go to an ATM it requires a PIN number. Some places call them ATM cards. Those drawn on significant banks will usually process as a credit card but their are differing types. A Business debot card for example seems to process just about anyplace yet a personal one might not.
I am sure someplace on the web this is all documented as to processes, what flys and doesnt.
If your PO'd enough about it just have some bank officers create a statement and submit it along with your statement to the FTC and whatever your states banking commission is called. They will generally do the rest.
There's also a new player on the block. CMGI Ventures just put out a payment services. CMGI is one of the most prolific web/technology based companies going. They own uBid and many other sites and are also big on venture capital. A GREAT bunch of folks that TRULY want to revolutionize the web. Cant remember the name of the site.
Rather remarkable isnt it that AW itself hasnt said a WORD about it. CMGI is not a minor web player, they are as big as big gets on the net at least presently. I've saw the banner rotating now and again on uBid. This is a company that is not mickey mouse and has very broad focus. Dont be surprised to see Citibank on scene soon. Just as eBay pioneered p2p auctions and paypal has pioneered online payment the big boys watch, learn, dont make the same mistakes and eventually devour?
I've put 20 questions to Paypal 16 times in email, several times on the phone to be met by nice people who eventually "drop the line" and when calling back you get a new person who cant trasnfer you to who you were talking to. I've put them here 3 times now w/ PPDamon's promise to answer. Never got a answers. Told us to email em' and they'll rspond that way as the questions are too "large" for messages. Well... I think we'd all like to know???
We wont use the service as they wont give us answers. We have merchant accounts, we know the in's and outs.
In fact... Its ALL changing. Visa/MC next year are REQUIRING different fraud/validation standards due to fraud. Our card processor called us and told us. In our case, we will use a secure realtime validation gateway. So instead of going to our secure server, a bidder would go directly to a page at OUR processor that handles the transaction in realtime. So if someone passes a stolen card they are on it like ducks on a june bug etc.
We were not sure they were not jsut trying to sell us into something as its more expensive (of course) but a week later in Inter@ctive Week (a web journal) and CRN (another web journal) it was stated as well. Not WHAT that new requirement will be but that changes are a comin.
In PayPal's defense as I have ALWAYS said I am sure they are high quality and honest people, the problem is many buyers and many sellers are not and this is the same for Billpoint or any other service that survives on trust.
I do take issue with the anti-validation bunch and the "gee I want the world for free" bunch. Validation should be a requirement EVERYPLACE eCommerce takes place. Simple as that. You want to sell to people and you want to buy from people you should not have issue with the venue of that transaction wanting validation, its money we are talking about here not the trade of chewing gum wrappers and I applaud PayPal for moving towards validation.
Businesses... If you are buying goods in a garage sale, from suppliers, liquidators, wholesalers etc. and buying it with the specific intent to resell it for profit you are buy nature IN BUSINESS. You will find 99.9% of any legal entity will not listen to "I did it as a hobby". Making money isnt considered a hobby in America, period. You wont get the IRS to fall for it and you wont get any court in the land to fall for it. But PayPal should? WOULD YOU??? Put yourself in their boots.
Here is a company providing a VERY risky service by its nature. THEY are assuming MUCH of the risk regardless of what anyone wishes to dispute. If your purposefully making money on a continual basis and using their service they deserve a cut. ebay gets a cut, dont see anyone here flippin' out about that. Its STILL cheap. At some sites we pay 20% or better commissions.
If I WERE PayPal I wouldnt call the "business account" a business account, that is if they can do that. I'd call it a pro-paypal or whatall account. First off, it feels more comfortable to the avg joe. Like "Powerseller"... ie: now they feel special which may somewhat override some of the hostility of having to PAY for a service. Make it advantageous... Hmmm... how... Sure I could come up with something intriguing.... perhaps credits.... For every sale via PP Pro-Accounts you get "n" credits. Credits are redeemable for paypal shirts, or better yet, for every 25 credits or something earned .25 cents gets put into a term investment account they can watch grow. All sorts of smart things can be done there. Or .25 of yours, 25 credits and .25 from PP goes into an investment account. Or towards a bond whatall.
1.9% isnt a bad rate. The added .25 is not good. We pay for Visa/MC 2.35%. We submit a batch say $400 total and there is a .25 "batch close" fee. So when we are all done processing cards we close that batch, costs .25 cents. Lets say the avg. order is $20. the $400 represents 20 orders. We pay $9.40 in processing commission fee's + .25 closure, thats $9.65 leaving us $390.35
At 1.9% + .25 per transaction we are at (1.9% of 400) is $7.60 plus .25 cents times 20 transactions or $5 bringing the total to $12.60 leaving you $387.40, basically 25% more expensive. Since its transaction quantity based it can be cheaper or more. If you sell something for $500 and sell 1 of em, PP business is cheaper than our processor. If you do volume sales, its probably not as the added .25 per transaction will mount up.
We feel paypal should go with PayPalProPayPeople accounts. More than say 30 sales a month, you pay the fee. This will allow businesses more solid footing in using the service in KNOWING that competitors are not at a advantage by using the free end of it while they have to pay more. The question then becomes one of is it worth it and is it safe.
The safety issues still concern us. Is it worth it... Well presently yes. The time we'd save using it is worth more to us than the added fee amount the .25 (which I presume IS a batch closure fee, so again, paypal isnt making a dime on the batch closure, that'd be Chase I assume) times how many ever transactions. For business, its tax deductible and while money in the hand is always better than tax deductions it is a cost of doing business and its FAR from unreasonable as many are yelling, in fact, since PP gets 1.9% and more than likely part of that is divvy'd off to a few other parties its EXTREMELY cost effective.
Nor do I think that PayPal planned all this out in advance. I think they realized that A. its gonna be damned difficult to make much money considering the support needed and liabilities by being able to invest peoples money for whatall, 24 hours. Secondly they basically have all their eggs in one basket being eBays basket. Placing ones interests ESPECIALLY as a business in one basket is always a formula for disaster. Third, there are changes coming and more & more competition afoot. They need to reach out to businesses, granted, maybe the way they are doing it now by saying to sellers "be honorable and do the right thing" isnt the way. Most construe it as THEY PLANNED THIS ALL ALONG! PICK PICK PICKIN' MY POCKETS!!! I WANT MY SERVICES FREE!!!! Well jeez guys/gals. I am sure your customers would like your goods and services free too. I am sure employers would LOVE to have you volunteer to work for free!!!!
So what they NEED to do is EXPLAIN it to the people. Thats all. No fluff, no baloney, jsut tell em'... HEY! We appreciate all of you but here's the deal!!! And lay it out. BREAK more new ground on the net! Be 101% honest with the people using the service. That'd be a REAL novelty on the net.
So now the only issue becomes the issues of fraud and safety. Those CAN be dealt with in a MUCH better fashion than they are now. Its going to require some programming, I know, I am a programmer. But MUCH can be done to curb it BEFORE it happens.
Both sellers and buyers need understand the issues. If someone passes a stolen card the seller sucks eggs. End of story. Thats what happens, its the risk you take in acceptance of credit cards. We take it now, PayPal takes it now, every seller should be taking it if they accept credit cards direct or through PP. Thats a RISK. as a seller you gauge is it worth it. Treat the service just like a VIRTUAL merchant account. That simple & of course complex.
posted on September 16, 2000 07:10:07 AMReddeer --
I think Billpoint really, really has their stuff together. When they were just Billpoint, and *not* owned by ebay, I remember they were so not user-friendly. I think they have grown and improved from that, and like to think they removed the kinks. The one time I had a CS issue, I sent in an email, and someone actually phoned me within 24 hours. I was very impressed; still am.
My customers like how professional the invoicing process is. The fees are paltry (negotiable, too) for high end items, and you know everything upfront. No guessing games or fear of a revolving TOS. Maybe I am being naive, but I think Billpoint knows the competition is stiff, so they are trying to run a very tight ship.
As for Paypal, considering what happened earlier this week, coupled with what they did as far as my account, I am done with them. I have no faith in their service or in their word.
posted on September 16, 2000 10:24:39 AMJulesy ..... I don't think you're being naive at all. At this point Billpoint will probably be willing to lick our boots to keep us happy. I know several other sellers who Billpoint has also phoned to help clarify a billing situation. I made a post on the eBay Billpoint board one morning & had a 2 reps respond to me in less than an hour. One on the board, and another via email.
As you just stated, with Billpoint you know up front what you're getting into, and their TOS don't change on a daily basis.
I decided a few weeks back that I wasn't going to offer PayPal, even if they did open their services up to International sellers like myself. Seems like I made the right decision.
Good luck in getting an answer from PayPal regarding this SNAFU.
posted on September 16, 2000 04:16:08 PM
Well if you really want it stopped you have to grab paypal's attention leaving messages on these boards are NOT doing it anymore. AS they have flipped is the bird. As you see most if any of the messages are not being answered. No one has time for a big long legal battle. So , the only thing you can do is try to bring it to the attention of BIG media. There are ways to do that now that are cost effective. Don't get into all the issues just get into this issue (trust me media will find the rest) One of doing that is useing the internet almost all the big shows have message boards now for Hot topics and the media, they do pay attention to these boards. For instance you could go over to the abc internet site (can't put the link here but I think everyone can figure it out : ) and there go to the view Barbra Walters daytime show very popular. The have a message board, but they also have this. A place where you can submit a problem and if it gets their eye (and if enough go over there it will) and if they pick your question they may solve it on the air. Here is what they say at the site and I have seen them do it and Barbra Walters being contacted with 20/20 doesn't hurt, "Whether you have a question about careers, relationships, etiquette or clothing, the ladies of The View are here to help you out. Submit your problems and they might get solved on the air! Click" BTW It would also be good to see what Star on the show ould have to say she is a lawyer and appears to be a darn good one. There are ways to fight back , but it has to be in numbers and has to attract the media attention. There are also other news shows that do this quite a few. it could also backfire but I doubt it since Paypal isn't that good with Public Relations.
posted on September 20, 2000 04:24:07 AM
Hi Reddeer --
Last night, I mentioned in another thread that I had heard nothing from Paypal, so PPD asked me to forward him the info a second time. Apparently, whomever he forwarded the info to, just didn't follow up.
posted on September 20, 2000 06:41:43 AM
>>Apparently, whomever he forwarded the info to, just didn't follow up. <<
Maybe he put an extra period at the end of the email ID by mistake, so he got confirmation that it was sent but the other party never got it. Isn't that how PP works?
