posted on May 29, 2005 06:45:55 AM new
profe - I said the ACLU and other godless people. And it's a fact that the ACLU goes around to the schools threatening them with lawsuits if they don't fall in line with their godless agenda. There currently, and have been in the past many lawsuits brought by those against the schools where their right to practice their religious freedoms ARE being violated.
And on my mention of this particular case...."with the past two months" is when the San Jose Court made the decision that the case WOULD be heard something in Oct. I believe. The defendents had asked the court to dismiss the case. They didn't.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on May 29, 2005 06:59:44 AM newHEY LINDA not everyone has the Bible attached to their religion.
HEY CHERYL....I never said they did. And the quote I gave was from Jefferson...you know the one that wrote the letter so many of you lefties want enforced. I didn't write it.
But we are seeing cases of school aged children who aren't being allowed to bring their Bibles to school, read their Bibles at school, or meet with a small group of friends to discuss their religion/Bibles. I don't believe, for one minute, Jefferson intented any such nonsense.
So, what you're saying is that Atheists, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims and the like are not good citizens, good fathers or good husbands?
You're putting words in MY mouth, once again, cheryl. I've never said that, ever.
I'm saying the ACLU and godless people are striving to remove any mention of religion from the public eye, when in fact all religions have a Constitutional right to practice their religion where ever they wish to...without limits and entering the school yard gate doesn't stop those 'right's from being practiced either.
When this country was young, Christianity was the dominant, almost sole, religion practiced in this country, so Jefferson's comments made sense. They don't today.
Sure it is...and those stats are mentioned all the time...especially around election time. Figures differ....but they're usually listed around 76 - 86% of American's call themselves Christians.
And what of the phrase "God-fearing"? That phrase is a Christian phrase. I don't know about anyone else, but I choose not to fear God.
Because YOU don't correctly understand the meaning of a phrase, isn't my fault.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
Have you read the Book of Mormon? No offense to anyone here who may be Mormon, but I have a hard time buying most of what they're selling. My niece (as well as my brother) are Mormons. They think that Jews don't believe in God (because they don't celebrate Christmas. It's been long established that Jesus was not born on December 25), Muslims also don't believe in God. Jesus was not a Jew and in fact shunned Jews. The Garden of Eden was in Missouri? Tablets were found under ground in NY City? American Indians are descendants of ancient Israelites? DNA tests have disproven that. They are of Asian descent. It goes on and on. Most of it makes no sense. My niece is having missionarys to her home in a couple of weeks. I've been invited over (along with a Jewish friend of mine) to dispute some of what they say. Even though there is scientific evidence contradicting a lot of what Smith stated, they poo-poo that evidence.
What really gets me is that when my niece gets married, we cannot attend the ceremony. Unless we are Mormon, we are not allowed in the church. What's that about?
Edited to add: Again, sorry if I offended any Mormons on the board. It's not my intention to do so.
Cheryl
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 29, 2005 07:08 AM ]
posted on May 29, 2005 07:13:30 AM newWhat's that about
It's means that people that don't belong, don't need to be there.
As far as I know all mormon temples are that way.
I am sure if somone wanted to convert there is a process for that.
But, doesn't that fly in the face of the teaching that all are welcome in His house? It's makes you wonder just what they're hiding behind those big expensive doors.
posted on May 29, 2005 07:36:25 AM new
It is their way, cheryl, where's your tolerance to their religion and it's ways? Here you so defend religions other than the Christian faith...but then you gripe about not liking one particular religions practices. Asking 'what are they hiding' implies that since they choose to do it this way...something MUST be wrong with it. Otherwise...they wouldn't 'HIDE' it behind closed doors.
Tolerance means accepting that other religions do things differently ...and it's their right to do so.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on May 29, 2005 07:40:32 AM new
Cheryl, that is part of the problem. Most people want to equate all things to all religions. Mormon is its own religon and they do not welcome outsiders.
You are welcome to HIS house if you belong to HIS house.
Linda, they also have a history of being persecuted in the US
Ron
[ edited by WashingtoneBayer on May 29, 2005 07:41 AM ]
posted on May 29, 2005 07:58:56 AM new
Ron says, "Most laws are based on the ten commnadments, if you are so against religion, why do you follow them? "
I'm so sorry to disappoint you , Ron, but just because someone does NOT believe in the bible or god or is against religion is a criminal deviate .
That is just stupid to think that way.
Just because christians commit crimes I don't think all christians are criminals.
posted on May 29, 2005 08:09:20 AM new
"Have you read the Book of Mormon?"
No, but took a twelve week college course on the subject. I'll certainly grant you that of all "major" religions, Mormonism is preety weird. HOWEVER, what I said is still correct. THey believe they descended from an offshoot of a Jewish tribe that travelled to America thousands of years ago. Jesus went and visited them after his crucifixion, and they do in fact believe the bible as we know it, but they also believe the Book Of Mormon, which for them at least supercedes the Bible where any conflict occurs.
"No offense to anyone here who may be Mormon, but I have a hard time buying most of what they're selling."
I agree without reservation. They have some very "unique"(the polite term for weird) beliefs and once you know their political history, you'd be even less inclined to believe in it. But obviously, some people DO believe it.
"My niece (as well as my brother) are Mormons. They think that Jews don't believe in God (because they don't celebrate Christmas."
Jews DON'T celebrate Christmas. Jews do not believe in the New Testament or Jesus. The Mormons do believe in those things. Some Christians believe the same things of Jews. It's partly true, partly wrong. They all come from the same source, but have branched off in different directions.
"It's been long established that Jesus was not born on December 25)"
True, but I don't see where that is relevent to the discussion of Mormons or Jews.
"Muslims also don't believe in God."
Wrong. First came Adam, Abraham, Jesus, and then Mohammed. All these guys were prophets. All were sent by Allah, which is just the Arabic word for God. The Muslims do in fact believe Allah and the God of the Jews and Christians are the same. They consider Jews and Christians to be "brothers of the book." Obviously, Jews and Christians don't believe in Mohammad as a prophet any more than they believe Joseph Smith was one for the Mormons.
"Jesus was not a Jew and in fact shunned Jews."
I'm not sure where you're coming from on this statement, so I'm going to ignore the line for now.
"The Garden of Eden was in Missouri? Tablets were found under ground in NY City? American Indians are descendants of ancient Israelites?"
As I said, I don't velieve it either.
"I've been invited over (along with a Jewish friend of mine) to dispute some of what they say. Even though there is scientific evidence contradicting a lot of what Smith stated, they poo-poo that evidence. "
Don't waste your time. If their faith is strong enough that they feel they are up to the challenge, then you aren't going to win.
"What really gets me is that when my niece gets married, we cannot attend the ceremony. Unless we are Mormon, we are not allowed in the church. What's that about?"
The Mormons have a long history of persecution, and one outgrowth of this is a very strict doctrine of secrecy. It sucks, but if you knew how their early history went, you probably would understand this better. In my opinion, they had a really rotten deal in their early history.
Again, I'm not a Mormon but have spent time studying them academically.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on May 29, 2005 08:13:09 AM new
Do people really need the ten commandments to remind them that killing is immoral and against the law?
How stupid are they?
I honor laws because it's the right thing to do....without laws there would be more chaos than there is now.
No, I don't want a religious scene or statue on PUBLIC property. I PAY for the courthouse...I should not be forced to pay for someone else's religious symbols that, in their weakened mind they need to remind them to love thy neighbor and not cheat on their spouse.
posted on May 29, 2005 08:41:23 AM new
The point that people seem to be missing is that these laws, the idea of killing another is wrong, wronging another, etc are ALL based on religion. Man was born with the instinct to kill, or to survive, religon has tempered that.
So those who oppose religon, should thank it for the laws and goodness that society for the most part has become. Even if you don't belive religon has made this world a better place.
posted on May 29, 2005 08:54:56 AM new
Cheryl did you ask them why you can't go to the wedding? I am sure that true Mormons will give you an answer. Mormons are unusually people and highly believe in their Religion. I think more so than any religion.
There was a time when people that were not catholic could not go into the catholic church. It is different now as non catholics can now take communion in a catholic church.
Times have changed and I think for the good. It is a little more relaxed, until the "lefties" talk about the Religious Right and I think that was the way it was in the beginning. There are religious "lefties" and maybe they should start speaking out also. But no, "lefties" only complain.
_________________
posted on May 29, 2005 09:03:28 AM new
Actually Libra, I know a Mormon who is in fact a *direct descendant* of Joseph Smith. He's been away from the church for several years, and now when he visits relatives in Salt Lake City, they don't allow him in the Temple anymore.
I don't remember all the specifics and reasons, but no, she's probably NOT going to be allowed into the ceremony.
Are there any actual Mormons here who can clear this up?
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on May 29, 2005 09:26:04 AM new
This is to long an article so I will just put in the URL. It is about the Mormon Religion, but it doesn't explain membership.
Re-read what I wrote, I said the MORMONS don't believe that Muslims or Jews believe in God. I didn't say that they don't believe in God. I also said the MORMONS at least my brother and niece don't believe that Jesus was a Jew and that he shunned Jews. I didn't say that's what I thought.
Cheryl
[ edited by CBlev65252 on May 29, 2005 09:34 AM ]
I'm going to go and listen to them anyway. By the time they get done hearing what I believe, they'll condemn me as a Godless creature anyway. I don't believe in creatism, I believe in evolution. I don't believe the Bible to be anymore than an ancient history book full of rhymes and riddles and "morals of the story". I don't believe in Heaven and I don't believe in Hell. I believe we are each re-born after we die. I do believe in God, or a creator. I know, I'm different, but I like me that way.
We've always been a close knit family. So much so that it's hard for Ken to understand at times. However, since my brother and his family converted, things have changed on that end. He considers the people in his church "family" and we're just kind of a side-note.
posted on May 29, 2005 11:50:17 AM new
"I should not be forced to pay for someone else's religious symbols that, in their weakened mind they need to remind them to love thy neighbor and not cheat on their spouse."
Evidently Clinton does.
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Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on May 29, 2005 11:52:14 AM newProfes, you often have posted you are a man of deep religious conviction (if that isnt a mockery, as i understand it) - so just curious - has your conscience ever goaded you to wish to do such a thing? Slide something in that maybe you know you shouldnt? In a class, a lesson - whatever?
Nope. Not once. I have deep personal religious feelings, but I do not subscribe to the dogma of any faith, although I am culturally Catholic. I don't for a minute believe my religious beliefs (which ultimately aren't beliefs per se anyhow, more like questions I'm constantly puzzling out in my mind and heart) would work for any other human being. As a result, proselytizing is anathema to me. I've said before here I think, my convictions about the creator/s comes from the miracle of watching a newborn lamb struggle to it's first taste of milk only minutes after it's birth, in the scream of the mountain lion who lives in our creek bottom, in the graceful resignation of a dying mare, in prayers answered and unanswered. My inspiration is my relationship to my world, not the supposedly divine sayings of someone who may or may not have really existed. When you live as I do, you find you sometimes really need god's help, not some human church's.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 29, 2005 12:02:01 PM newTen commandments should be in every courthouse in the land.
Ron, please explain how, if your wish should come true, the very first of the ten commandments would not be an establishment of religion, prohibited by the Constitution.
Protestant commandment #1:
Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.
Catholic commandment #1
I am the lord thy God, thou shalt have no strange gods before me.
Jewish commandment #1
I am the Lord thy God, who brought
thee out of the land of Egypt, out of
the house of slavery.
note: it's in the second Jewish commandment where god says to have no other gods before him .
As a side note, I've always found it interesting, that in all three versions, god never insists that he is the only god in existence, he just requires that he be the most important. He doesn't say "I'm the only god there is", he just wants to be the first one worshipped. I guess this is proof of what he says in the 2nd commandment, protestant and jewish versions (but not the Catholic one) "I the Lord am a jealous God"
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 29, 2005 12:08:19 PM new
dbl, I'm sure it's a struggle for lots of teachers. We're human after all, it's nearly impossible to keep all of your own opinions about all sorts of things to yourself, but a good teacher remains vigilant and does his or her best not to color their subject matter with their own beliefs.
The case Linda mentioned a while back is a case of a dedicated Christian teacher purposely trying to evangelize his students, and then crying foul when he was caught at it. He not only should have been censured, he should have been sacked.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 29, 2005 12:11:40 PM newprofe, do you not recognize these words to mean I am the only one to worship? That was always my interpretation of it.
Close, I'd say they mean "I'm the one to worship first". It's puzzling to me now, these words were given to us by the nuns as proof that there was only one god. They don't mean that to me anymore.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 29, 2005 04:36:14 PM new dbl, I'm sure it's a struggle for lots of teachers. He not only should have been censured, he should have been sacked.
Yes, I agree profe. Some things you just cant do, and sadly, you cant do anything about some things either.
Still..I guess I am lucky I am not a teacher because although I would not go where this teacher went, I think I would try to show kids if there was any room to do so (though literature or whatever) that the world is much bigger than what they may only know from home.
spelling
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[ edited by dblfugger9 on May 29, 2005 04:37 PM ]
posted on May 29, 2005 04:45:11 PM new
"As a side note, I've always found it interesting, that in all three versions, god never insists that he is the only god in existence, he just requires that he be the most important."
Oh no, he's definitely not the only god there is. If you go through the Old Testament, many others are mentioned. Baal, Dagon, Astarte/Astaroth, and several others whose names I don't immediately remember.
Claiming that the Jewish God was the only one who existed not only would have sounded silly at the time, but would probably have resulting in their annihilation.
The belief that the Jewish/Christian God is the only one who exists is a much more modern invention. If you actually READ the Bible, it clearly doesn't say that, but still many people were taught and believe that this is true.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
HEY CHERYL....I never said they did. And the quote I gave was from Jefferson...you know the one that wrote the letter so many of you lefties want enforced. 
I don't believe in creatism, I believe in evolution. I don't believe the Bible to be anymore than an ancient history book full of rhymes and riddles and "morals of the story". I don't believe in Heaven and I don't believe in Hell. I believe we are each re-born after we die. I do believe in God, or a creator. I know, I'm different, but I like me that way. 