posted on September 14, 2000 10:24:50 PM
Well, all I know is that their fees are not worth the trouble....CHECKS AND MONEY ORDERS ONLY WILL BE FINE FOR ME TOO!! I am sick of the way everyone is out to put their hand into WHAT WE EARN. I am a full-time seller, trying to stay home with my 2 year old and 5 week old, and it just gets harder and harder to make a buck!!
I can deal with the Ebay fees for listing items, Grin and Bear it when PA sales tax are due, and pay my share to Uncle Sam each March.... but when you top it off with more fees for accepting Paypal, I might as well go back to my old office job! I don't make much "per item" on what I sell, that is why I have to list between 100 and 200 items a week...to stay afloat. Now this means I will have to add more items each week to help cover these wonderful extra charges...
NO THANKS!! I Do enough! PayPal knows what they can do with their service! And I think alot of other people feel the same way. They will lose ALOT of customers over this! Especially when they promised that it would always be free. They make plenty in dividends and interest on the money I have in there everyday...they don't need any more of my money!
posted on September 14, 2000 10:26:18 PM
I am glad someone filed with the FTC. I see the main issues as disclosures, advertising, referal fees, and has PayPal/X.com been operating an illegal bank. Don't forget in this country banks must have state or federal charters? Whatever happened to that bank in Colorado that they were going to buy? Was it this company or am I mistaken? Why do I have a feeling that if it was X.com/PayPal that the regulators including the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and FDIC would not approve the acquisition.
PayPalDamon continues the same messages for damage control. He won't answer the questions because even in his heart he knows that we were used to make hundreds of millions of dollars for the owners of this company when they take it public.
So what you are telling me is that I am abusing your system?
A system that paid one of my buyers to recruit me (an ebay seller) and paid me to join (promising me "free auction payments" ).
This buyer did not even ask. They just paid me using your service and I had to join to get my money. You say I am abusing your system by making you live up to your *original* user agreement?
You promised me free service when I joined and that's what I expect! It's very simple and no matter how you twist the meaning of the original user agreement, you still can't make me believe otherwise.
I did not even read the emails that you sent. I don't have a lot of time to sit around reading monster emails about services that I neither want or need. I personally knew nothing of your new amended user agreement until I read it on this message board, and YES, I ignored it.
If someone promises me something I hold them to it, just as I fully expect them to do to me. So if you want to inforce your so-called user agreement which you are making up on the fly, Great! I will go elsewhere! I am not paying you (paypal) one thin dime... At least not after being treated this way...
posted on September 14, 2000 10:51:36 PM
Below are the things that were promised by PayPal when we signed up. I saved the original pages when I signed up as I do with all services. This way it is not possible for companies to rewrite history.
When I signed up I agreed to what is stated on these PayPal pages, nothing more. In most every instance the word *free* is the key word used to entice people to sign up and also to bring more users by using the 10.00/5.00 bonus. Most every time the word auction is used, it is associated with the word *free*.
Notice that the word free is not used in the TOU. There is a statement at the bottom of their page that they can change the TOU at anytime without notice. However, since free is not mentioned in the TOU, changing it does not change their obligation to follow guarantees that are listed on their sign up pages.
[ edited by Jacqueg on Sep 15, 2000 12:33 AM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 10:57:30 PM
Please read this and consider spending 10-15 minutes to write a short letter and forward copies of any documentation you have to the addresses below. And agian don't forget my previous post to file a complaint with the FTC, it's so easy and can even be done on-line and also contact the authors/publishers of any articles on PayPal that you have.
As a former examiner, I know the scrutiny that some of the other financial services companies undergo. PayPal clearly has not been regulated by the federal government and has used this to its advantage. These deceptive practices would not have been permitted at other instituions. This is a growing area and may need some oversight. These are the types of issues that they are very interested in right now, on-line banking, payment processing, etc. Congress would be very interested in our experience with PayPal. Here are the addresses and phone numbers for the banking committees.
House Committee on Banking and Financial Services
2129 Rayburn H.O.B.
Washington D.C. 20515
(202) 225-7502
US Senate Committee on Bnaking, Housing, and Urban Affairs
534 Dirksen Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
(202)224-7391 phone
(202) 224-5137 FAX
Chairman Leach heads the House Committee and Charman Gramm heads the Senate Committee.
[ edited by topprospects on Sep 14, 2000 11:00 PM ]
Thanks for posting that. Did you also save the original TOU. I thought that maybe I could click through and see if it was still on their site but it said that the page was outdated.
Notice that the word free is not used in the TOU. There is a statement at the bottom of their page that they can change the TOU at anytime without notice. However, since free is not mentioned in the TOU, changing it does not change their obligation to follow guarantees that are listed on their sign up pages.
[ edited by Jacqueg on Sep 14, 2000 11:20 PM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 11:26:08 PM
Okay, I'm not a seller, and hadn't signed up with PP. Just to be clear about this.
I have had several sellers ask if I wanted to signing up with PP to pay, one slightly more "pleading" (sort of, for lack of a better word), but I turned him (and the rest) down, mainly because I like to keep as many third parties out of a transaction as I can. I like "no nonsense" transactions.
Now say I did start selling a few items (I had considered it in the past, before eBay started turning its own screws), and someone dumped a PP payment, even if I hadn't offered PP. I would still have considered just signing up and trying them.
Now say all I was looking to do, selling-wise, was to dump a single series of 80 novels I no longer wanted, to reduce the clutter in my abode. Or say I just wanted to get rid of an old "water-filter"-style rug vacuum, and someone ended up paying me by PP.
Given this current fiasco, it appears I'd be confronted by a form to which I could not answer "I'm not a seller" (I'd have sold at least one item, so I'd be a seller), and forces an upgrade on me otherwise. Suddenly, PP treats me like a business, and would force me to enter a bunch of information that I wouldn't even have?
PayPalDamon's statements only set me more on edge. I understand business needs well enough, but find PP's asking people to be honest about what they are to be at odds with the way they seem to be ambushing people with a question whose answers imply that PP/X.com thinks everyone is either a buyer or a business. No in between, no definition? Hmmph, no wonder people are seriously upset here.
Obviously, and correct me if I'm wrong, a few things have happened or are happening here, from what I can figure:
1) PP started out by claiming/promising forever free for everyone who signs up, that money would be made on the "float" (well, excellent).
2) PP decided to add new fee-based services (okay, fine, not necessarily a problem, except...: ).
3) PP did not grandfather existing users,
4) ... and is forcing its users to answer a question implying either buyer or business,
5) ... apparently without defining exactly what constitutes a "business" --
6) -- but forcing those who cannot answer not-a-seller to upgrade to a business (read fee-based) account, despite #1.
Frankly, I find these events, even as a non-PP user, extremely disturbing. There are companies I hear troubling things about after I buy, and there are those I hear about before I buy. I do not do (further) business with companies I feel are or likely will deal dishonestly with me, will not respect me as a customer or person, will sell my information to the parasites otherwise known as direct marketers, and so on.
I find PP's actions sound extremely arrogant, and will never do business with them or X.com, neither as a buyer or possible future seller.
If I ever do start selling, I would clearly state that I do NOT accept PayPal payments, and if a customer were to beam me payment anyway, I would demand (as politely as possible) that they pull it back and send a money order (not a check in this case, given they had trouble reading the first time ), even if I risked a negative from the buyer for being stubborn or some such.
As a buyer, which is what I still am to this point, if a seller asks me about PP, I will politely refuse and then say "You may want to check out this thread...." And if the idea of online payments comes up in a real life conversation, I will not be afraid to mention my reservations and who has bolstered them.
I do not like companies that show signs of playing people, and this goes far beyond that, IMO. At this point, I would not trust PayPal further than I could throw a 747.
PP just lost any hope of getting my business.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
[ Edited to fix UBB. ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 14, 2000 11:32 PM ]
posted on September 14, 2000 11:53:50 PM
I posted this on another thread. Excuse me for repeating it here.
I assume it is Paypal's intention to limit the number of payments a personal user can accept each month. For example, they may allow only five or ten payments per month, then the system would automatically refuse to process further transactions for a "personal" account. In this way, the account remains free, no one is "forced" to upgrade, but the account is useless to a seller.
By the way, I am a business. I'm not going to split hairs. And I was promised "always free." I understand many of you want to squeeze in under Paypal's definition of "a business." Not me. I just want what I was promised when I added the Paypal logo to all my auctions.
I'm still reeling from Damon's apparent distinction between "forced" and "required." I think I'm getting the picture, along with a particular probing sensation down in the nether regions. I'm looking at Payplace.com now. It's free and also offers $5 referral bonuses. It's nice to offer customers the convenience of credit card payments, but I won't deal with Paypal.
posted on September 14, 2000 11:54:09 PM
Some are calling us a vocal minority and stating that this will die down soon. Look how few people vote, the government is in many ways run by the minority, those that get involved make a difference.
If you have strong feelings that PayPal should be held accountable or even at a minimum there should be some sort of supervision over on-line financial services companies such as PayPal to prevent this from happening again, contact the regulators such as the FTC and forward copies of your information to the House and Senate Banking Committees.
The government would legitimately be interested in how they were able to build this company, are consumer compliance regulations being violated, are new rules needed to supervise on-line financial service companies such as PayPal, and is there any threat to the safety and soundness of the banking system.
As a former examiner, I know the complaints are reviewed and taken very seriously. Also if PayPal ever applied for a bank charter, the California Department of Financial Institutions, Federal Reserve, and FDIC are all required to review the complaint files so consider ccing these organizations too (they will not have access to any FTC complaints).
We can make a difference here and it sounds like many of you have kept excellent records on communications from PayPal.
Hi! You were certainly smart to save that information. I am certainly going to print all information and terms of agreements in the future. I am going to post a link on the OTWA board to this page in response to Damon's Official PayPal statement over on the OTWA board. I would like to see how he responds to this. Hope you don't mind. If so please email me at [email protected]. This page says alot and I am very grateful that you had the foresight to save it.
Thanks you. Maybe this will give PayPal a clue why everyone is so upset (but I am sure they have certainly figured it out by now). I think playing dumb isn't working and they need to change their strategy. A good start would be to apologize for the way this all was handle. I don't come over here quite often enough but will certainly make these boards a regular place to visit. It looks like there is a lot of sellers who hang out here. Too bad we are all so upset over this Paypal fiasco. It would be a lot more productive for us if we could spend our time on the message board learning from each other as usually is the case. Hope this mess all gets straightened out soon. Thanks again. Be seeing you.
posted on September 15, 2000 05:26:04 AM
Can anyone tell me how you can close your account with PayPal? I mean REALLY close it so that they cannot accept any payments from buyers. The only way I got stuck with this mess is that someone paid me by PayPal (I wasnt even signed up!) and I was forced to join to get my money out. I don't understand how PayPal could have accepted the
payment when I did not join but I want to make sure it doesnt happen again once my last few auctions run off. I have looked everywhere on the their site and it says you can unsign at any time but don't tell how.
posted on September 15, 2000 06:17:52 AM
exerpt from Damon's post......."If you have thoughts or concerns on what our policy should be, please email us your suggestions".............ISN't this a little too little, a little too late? Like Vickishome said earlier....once the Trust is busted, well, All the Kings men and all the Kings horses couldn't put Trust back together again!......I'm moving on....PayPal is being phased out of my business operations. They forced me to re-anylze my operations again, (which is always a good thing to do from time to time) so, for that I thank you!.....KISS(keep it simple stupid)ING PayPal goodbye. I'm a one person business operating out of a spare bedroom, and my pockets aren't big enough for more than the absolutely necessary hands to be in, and PayPal is NOT an absolutely necessary part of running my BUSINESS! I'm downsizing, and sorry PayPal, you were the last man on the totem pole...your job has been eliminated. Your function is not only not necessary, but I don't need these hassels either. You're not worth it. Wonder how long PayPal will stay in business with only 250,000 customers? Far cry smaller number than 3 million customers, huh?........(PS: can someone tell me how to use html on this board, thanks!)
posted on September 15, 2000 06:18:55 AM
I sent an email to the Dateline NBC newsmagazine show informing them of the current PayPal saga, along with links to PayPal and this thread. I received this email in return:
[i]Thank you for your E-Mail to Dateline NBC. We are very pleased with the enormous response we are getting. Although we cannot write a personal note to each of you, we do print out our messages, look at them and discuss your comments and reaction, and we do sometimes quote your E-Mail on the air in our 'feedback' segment. If your correspondence is in reference to a specific segment, that letter will be forwarded to the
segment producer for review.[/i
If you have a specific story suggestion please send it to:
STORY SUGGESTIONS Dateline NBC 30 Rockefeller Plaza New York, NY 10112
I don't know whether Dateline will pursue this story or not but we'll see. Does anyone think they will? If anyone knows of a better way to contact Dateline, please let me know.
posted on September 15, 2000 06:31:34 AM
By the way, I have a letter on the way to the P.O. right now to express mailed to the Dateline address above. We'll see if they do anything with this story.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:08:45 AM
[b] DC9A320 - [/]
"3) PP did not grandfather existing users,"
OH YES THEY DID ... the email they sent in JUNE when they introduced the business accounts specifically states that existing users would not be forced to upgrade. Meaning our accounts could REMAIN personal ones (and FREE). And ALWAYS
huskylover -
Their signup model is heavily dependent on being able to get one individual to COERCE another to join.
Close your account and then send them a letter they have to sign for. Ask the USPS which class of mail gets the return reciept.
In that letter tell them they are NOT AUTHORIZED to accept any payments in your name and to CEASE AND DESIST accepting payments on your behalf.
Tell them to flag your email address (or addresses - give them a list of every address you have ever used) in their database as "never accept funds for this address" and tell them that you do not EVER AGAIN want to have them accept any money in your behalf. And you do not want any further ads or solicitations by them to EVER appear in your email box: the only thing you want to get from them is a LETTER on real paper stating that they have made it impossible for anyone to send you money through their system.
Give them a reasonable time (they seem to consider ZERO a reasonable time to warn customers, but have a bit of pity on their programmers and give them a couple of weeks). Then have a friend test the account by sending a small sum ... if you get the "you have cash" email, SEND ANOTHER paper letter, reiterating the demand that THEY MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO SEND CASH TO YOUR EMAIL ADDRESSES. The friend can retrieve the money if you do not rejoin.
This kind of database programming IS possible ... maybe not easy, because they never planned/considered that someone would be less than thrilled to have to jump through hoops to get money. But it IS possible.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:20:13 AM
abingdoncomputers:..... you can get NBC phone numbers here, perhaps a phone call to the right person could speed it up a bit.... http://yp.infospace.com/info/searchyp?srchyp=1&BP=1&BR=&QS=ny&QN=NBC&QK=20&31780
posted on September 15, 2000 07:29:43 AM
amy -- I just logged in again and viewed their fee schedule, and it says the fees will be
effective as of 10/1. So you were right!
Well, I stupidly followed the screen and upgraded.
I had one-- ONE ---transaction afterward and guess what? PayPal charged me! According to my calendar it is not yet 10/1 so why was I charged already?
I have written a protest letter to them and asked to have my account downgraded to personal because I am not a high volume seller on eBay and not ALL of my transactions even go through Paypal.
I believe another company will rise out of the ashes to take Paypal's place and offer this service free for the money they make off of the float. I WILL sign up if PayPal does not rectify this deplorable situation. i can understand them charging power sellers, and volume users, but NOT US LITTLE GUYS!
posted on September 15, 2000 07:50:10 AM
Abacaxi and VeryModern - thank you both for
your help. I will both cancel my account and
send a letter registered mail to PayPal telling them on no account are they to accept
money for any of my auctions. I felt coerced
when it happened the first time and everybody told me I was foolish not to take it - its FREE after all! Well, guess I'm not
feeling so foolish now. My momma always told me nothing in life in free and she was
right! Thanks again for your help!
), even if I risked a negative from the buyer for being stubborn or some such.