posted on May 29, 2005 08:03:48 PM new
"because of, religion, we've had wars, torture, oppression, murder, rape, bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and general all around nastiness."
crow, you think we wouldn't have had those things WITHOUT religion?
Religion is and always has been a civilizing influence on the majority of the people. There are always going to be some abuses of WHATEVER system is in place.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on May 29, 2005 10:12:52 PM new
Ron, you didn't answer the question. To state that you're sure that sometime, someplace, people of other countries used the ten commandments for the basis of their laws is pure speculation on your part. To speculate that the ten commandments are the earliest and only place these tenets have been written down betrays your lack of knowlege of history.
Let's take the commandments one by one and compare them to American constitutional law.
1. I am the lord thy god...etc.
this is unconstitutional, it establishes religion
2. Thou shalt not make any "graven" image...etc.
unconstitiutional. The first amendment guarantees freedom of speech and expression.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the lord in vain...
wrong again. see commandment # 2, While offensive, swearing is legally protected.
4. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy...see commandment 1. Again, not constitutional. Just ask the mini mart clerk you bought your sunday paper from.
5. Honor thy father and thy mother.....
a noble sentiment to be sure, but that's all. Not law.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
At last, a commandment that you could actually argue maybe influenced our constitution. Of course, you could just as (perhaps more) logically argue that the constitution was influenced by Hammurabi's code, which said the same thing, and said it carved in stone tablets which still exist some 4 centuries earlier than the Jewish people began talking to god.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
This one doesn't wash, especially if you read the biblical definition of adultery. By that standard, anyone seeking a divorce is an adulterer.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
OK, here's the second one of 8 that I'll give you, except to say that old Hammurabi again beat Moses and Yaweh to the puch with this one too.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness....
Here's your third out of 10, but again, Hammurabi's code dealt extensively with perjury.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife...etc.
Jealousy is not illegal. In fact, a good case can be made that covetousness, avarice and jealousy are the foundations of American life.
The 10 Commandments are an excellent guide to living, but they are in no way the foundation of our Constitution.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 29, 2005 10:16:28 PM new
Now I'll ask you again. How is the First Commandment not establishing religion if posted in government buildings? Or maybe it's OK with you that it does....
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 29, 2005 10:19:37 PM newI think I would try to show kids if there was any room to do so (though literature or whatever) that the world is much bigger than what they may only know from home.
There's plenty of room to do so. It is a teacher's highest responsibility, in my opinion.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 29, 2005 11:34:37 PM newI've said before here I think, my convictions about the creator/s comes from the miracle of watching a newborn lamb struggle to it's first taste of milk only minutes after it's birth, in the scream of the mountain lion who lives in our creek bottom, in the graceful resignation of a dying mare, in prayers answered and unanswered. My inspiration is my relationship to my world, not the supposedly divine sayings of someone who may or may not have really existed. When you live as I do, you find you sometimes really need god's help, not some human church's.
posted on May 30, 2005 06:26:22 AM new
No, these tenets are a part of history and the basis for the laws of this country. So before the written word are you saying that there was no war? No taking of life indiscriminatly? Are you going to use the aztecs as an example? The egyptians? Yes they did have civilized societies, but also based on religon. And in a much stricter sense than now.
I personally would not be offended seeing the ten commandments in a government office, because I know they are not establishing something that is already there.
Yes in the form written many are unconstitutional, however mini-mart clerk may have their sabbath on Saturday or even Friday, or as you have said just enjoy the wonders of the world. Where does it say Sunday?
Hammurabi's Code The Code deals with a class of persons devoted to the service of a god
Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind.
Still based on religon, religon and belief has gone back as far as man. Civilized society is based on religon. That has been my point throught this topic.
Thanks for the mentioning Hammurabi, looking him up was quite a nice read.
Not once has a person that is against religon said why they support laws? Based on religon.
posted on May 30, 2005 06:30:52 AM newWithout religon we would not be a civilized society.
So, are you saying that people who don't have religion (e.g., Athiests) are uncivilized? Just want to be clear on that point. I don't have "religion" (although I am not an Athiest I can be considered Agnostic), but I consider myself quite civilized.
posted on May 30, 2005 07:50:22 AM new
"7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
This one doesn't wash, especially if you read the biblical definition of adultery"
yea Bill Clinton has been telling us that for years now
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Baseball season has started,but they have it all wrong.3 strikes and you're out,4 balls you walk.I can tell you right now a man with 4 balls could not possibly walk
posted on May 30, 2005 07:59:39 AM newso why do religious people feel the overwhelming NEED to display their religion on PUBLIC property ?
I think they just want to say they are supporting their cause and to promote their agenda.
In a nutshell, it is the same as people putting out signs on their front lawn showing which political candidate they support or which bill they would like seen passed into law.
However, if people want to this they should do it on their own private property. Public land is for all people and should remain neutral territory.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
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President George Bush: "Over time the truth will come out."
President George Bush: "Our people are going to find out the truth, and the truth will say that this intelligence was good intelligence. There's no doubt in my mind."
Bush was right. The truth did come out and the facts are he misled Congress and the American people about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq.
I won't argue with you that there is a religious basis for law found in virtually all societies. Over the course of history, completely secular, unreligious cultures are scarce as hen's teeth.
My problem with your argument is this statement, which you made earlier:
Most laws are based on the ten commnadments...
It's simply fallacious, as I pointed out to you. The constitution of this country only addresses maybe 3 out of 10 commandments.
As to my original question to you, you still haven't clearly addressed it. Stay with me now.
> The 10 Commandments are originally Hebrew, accepted as doctrine by first the Jewish faith, and later the Christian. They were later honored also by the Muslim faith.
> It is widely accepted that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship thier own interpretation of the same god.
> The first commandment requires obeisance to God. No ifs, ands, or buts. Not just any god you wish, this particular Judeo-Christian-Muslim god. Yaweh-Jehovah-Allah etc.
> Putting the 10 commandments on display in government buildings would have the effect of "officializing" them, and since they speak specifically of a particular religious tradition's god, not just a creator, this is a defacto establishment of religion.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 30, 2005 11:26:06 AM new
Ron, why don't you just put a set of stone tablets in your yard...or your living room....then you won't need a TV , you can just stare at them all day long and be a better person for it
posted on May 30, 2005 11:56:30 AM new
Yes, it will be interesting to see if our liberal USSC rules against Moses holding the 10 commandments that are part of the USSC building itself. Think some reconstruction is in order?
'TEAR DOWN THOSE WALLS'
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Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on May 30, 2005 11:58:01 AM newSimply put Profe51, I am in favor of seeing the ten commandments there and people can interpret what they want.
OK, so you don't have a problem with the government establishing religion. Now that that's settled, which version would you like to see in your nearest courthouse, post office, etc? There are three different versions in the King James Bible alone, two in Exodus and one in Deuteronomy, then there are the various wordings by different christian sects, not to mention the Islamic version found in the Q'uran. They're arguably different you know, enough so that differing christian-jewish-muslim groups insist that their version is the real one. Should we just use some dumbed-down generic version? Or maybe we should use the protestant version, since the president claims to be born again. We could ask James Dobson, I bet he's got an opinion....If a catholic should get elected, who would pay to replace all the copies with catholic versions? Taxpayers? If Joe Lieberman ever gets elected, I'll bet he'll want that part about "who brought you out of Egypt.." in his first commandment, that's for sure.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 30, 2005 11:59:39 AM newI would rather you enjoy them also
sounds to me like you'd rather she was forced to enjoy them
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 30, 2005 12:03:20 PM new
Ron, I already know how to behave, I don't need to read the ten commandments every day....just the wanton , uncivilized, torturing, warring, bigoted, raping, molesting, murdering, cheating, stealing christians need reminders
posted on May 30, 2005 12:07:18 PM newWe could ask James Dobson, I bet he's got an opinion.
I think that's a GREAT idea, profe. Might just teach the left a thing or two about family values.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on May 30, 2005 12:09:28 PM new
You'll not sidetrack this thread if I can help it linda, I'm ignoring your comment.
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 30, 2005 12:10:24 PM new
Well Ron, I'm waiting. Which version of the 10 commandments do you want posted in government buildings?
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Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
