posted on May 30, 2005 02:53:27 PM new
Still no answer to the mysterious list of 'other' religions that want their own set of 10 commandments posted, publically.
This hot topic will continue to be waged in our courts. It's my opinion that it's long overdue for the Christians to fight for their right to practice their religion freely. And that means you don't tell me that I can't pray where ever I wish to pray, or that my child can't. If you don't like it...then don't do it...but don't infringe on my right to do so.
That's not the tolerance the left always say THEY, and only THEY, possess. Be tolerant that I am different than you. Be tolerant that I wish my child to be able to wear a cross to school. There are much worse things kids wear now-a-days.....go pick on them.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on May 30, 2005 02:54:39 PM newhaving these displayed HURTS NO ONE
You're wrong. It may not hurt most, but it hurts some. It offends me, and I know students it would offend also. Anyone's god demanding loyalty from the walls of an American public building is offensive to me, and to others. If it didn't hurt anyone, there would not be such a big hoo-haw about it now, would there?
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 30, 2005 03:01:26 PM newStill no answer to the mysterious list of 'other' religions that want their own set of 10 commandments posted, publically.
I never alluded to a list, nor did I ever claim there was any argument over which version of the commandments should be posted. This is just another of your dodges, made up to avoid the question I asked you first. I only asked you and Ron which version you'd like to see. Ron answered. You haven't, and I doubt you will.
I fully support a person's right to read a religious book, or say a prayer anywhere they want to on their own time. That's the essence of religious freedom. It is an utterly different issue from government sponsorship of a Judeo-Christian tract ,which is what the 10 commandments is, on the walls of public buildings. Your attempt to cloud these two issues together won't wash Linda. They aren't the same.
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 30, 2005 03:03:16 PM new
Sure it is profe. And to me it's PROOF that all can co-exist...just as they are depicted and do on that USSC wall. And I also believe the 'tablets' sit above the USSC justices when they're in session. Usually they're photograped with the black drape closed. But they're there too.
---------
This issue isn't about other religions SHARING the public space with the Christians....this is about removing everything God related.
And anyone reviewing some of the clinton documents...letters he wrote..etc...at the bottom they were signed "IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD, 19XX". Now just who would he and other Presidents be referring to when they mention "our Lord". So...not only was our past history full of religion....but our present one, while having less, still represents the majority of American's....who identify THEMSELVES as Christians.
Might just be another reason some aren't voting for the dem party.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on May 30, 2005 03:19:48 PM new
profe - You say it offend you. Well...there's a zillion things that offend many millions of people.
If we tried to remove everything that offends anyone...well..you get the picture.
And it would have been more appropriate for me to use 'their version' rather than 'the list'.
Because I just went back on page 3 and re-read...any YEP...you were using as your argument that there were many different versions...so which one should we use.
Now that that's settled, which version would you like to see in your nearest courthouse, post office, etc? There are three different versions in the King James Bible alone, two in Exodus and one in Deuteronomy, then there are the various wordings by different christian sects, not to mention the Islamic version found in the Q'uran. They're arguably different you know, enough so that differing christian-jewish-muslim groups insist that their version is the real one. Should we just use some dumbed-down generic version? Or maybe we should use the protestant version, since the president claims to be born again. We could ask James Dobson, I bet he's got an opinion....If a catholic should get elected, who would pay to replace all the copies with catholic versions? Taxpayers? If Joe Lieberman ever gets elected, I'll bet he'll want that part about "who brought you out of Egypt.." in his first commandment, that's for sure.
I took that to mean there were groups of other religious people who were objecting to the most used version. And I was asking....not trying to cloud anything, profeASKING...which groups these were that were complaining.
So now am I to 'take' it that it was just an example of the differing groups of Christians you were implying [imo] who are 'fighting' over which versions to use? Because if you are/were then I sure haven't heard any stink coming from one group of Christians against another group of Christian on this subject [which version of the 10 commandants should be used].
I personally think you were trying to make an issue...that's really not an issue at all.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
edited to add the profe exact statement.
[ edited by Linda_K on May 30, 2005 03:23 PM ]
[ edited by Linda_K on May 30, 2005 03:31 PM ]
posted on May 30, 2005 03:27:23 PM new
profe states: I only asked you and Ron which version you'd like to see. Ron answered. You haven't, and I doubt you will.
I too answered you. I don't know if you didn't like the answer I gave, or if you don't believe what I said....but I DID answer it profe.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on May 30, 2005 03:28:43 PM new
I found these stats interesting:
"The proportion of the [American] population that can be classified as Christian has declined from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001."
The United States appears to be going through an unprecedented change in religious practices. Large numbers of American adults are disaffiliating themselves from Christianity and from other organized religions. Since World War II, this process had been observed in other countries, like the U.K., other European countries, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. But, until recently, affiliation with Christianity had been at a high level -- about 87% -- and stable in the U.S.
Polling data from the 2001 ARIS study, described below, indicate that:
81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion:
76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend continues, then by about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S.
52% of Americans identified themselves as Protestant.
24.5% are Roman Catholic.
1.3% are Jewish.
0.5% are Muslim, followers of Islam.
The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. 4,5 Wiccans in Australia have a very similar growth pattern, from fewer than 2,000 in 1996 to 9,000 in 2001. 10 In Canada, Wiccans and other Neopagans showed the greatest percentage growth of any faith group. They totaled 21,080 members in 1991, an increase of 281% when compared with 1990.
14.1% do not follow any organized religion. This is an unusually rapid increase -- almost a doubling -- from only 8% in 1990. There are more Americans who say they are not affiliated with any organized religion than there are Episcopalians, Methodists, and Lutherans taken together.
The unaffiliated vary from a low of 3% in North Dakota to 25% in Washington State. "The six states with the highest percentage of people saying they have no religion are all Western states, with the exception of Vermont at 22%."
A USA Today/Gallup Poll in 2002-JAN showed that almost half of American adults appear to be alienated from organized religion. If current trends continue, most adults will not call themselves religious within a few years. Results include:
About 50% consider themselves religious (down from 54% in 1999-DEC)
About 33% consider themselves "spiritual but not religious" (up from 30%)
About 10% regard themselves as neither spiritual or religious.
Cultural and ethnic groups:
Hispanics consist of the largest minority group in the U.S. Although many assume that they are overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, their religious identification is quite diverse: 57% Roman Catholic, 22% Protestant, 5% other religion; 12% no organized religion. 7
Jews in America consist of about 5.3 million adults: 53% followers of Judaism, 26% of other religions, and 20% of no organized religion. 7
Native Americans consist of 20% Baptist, 17% Roman Catholic, 17% of no organized religion, 3% tribal religion.
posted on May 30, 2005 03:38:16 PM new
[i]appear to be alienated from organized religion[i].
I believe that to be true. And then, as we all know, other 'studies' can be found that give higher numbers to different groups.
But one does NOT have to be a part of an 'organized religion' to be a Christian. One does not automatically give up their 'God' because they don't go to Church.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on May 30, 2005 04:04:47 PM new
Linda_K
posted on May 30, 2005 03:19:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
profe - You say it offend you. Well...there's a zillion things that offend many millions of people.
If we tried to remove everything that offends anyone...well..you get the picture. """"
posted on May 30, 2005 04:13:58 PM new
[url]http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/10%20Commandments.htm[/url
Which Ten Commandments?
By Jim Myers
This article on ABC News
There is a great deal of talk going on now about putting the Ten Commandments in our public schools. The only question is -- "Whose Ten Commandments are they wanting to put up - Jewish, Catholic, or Protestant?"
We should keep in mind that these were not products of the same time period. The Jewish Ten Commandments were around many centuries before the Roman Catholic Church came into being in the late 4th century CE (AD). In Christianity the Roman Catholic version was the only version for over 1000 years. Remember, it wasn't until the 16th century CE (AD) that the first Protestant churches were established.
As you examine the three different versions of the Ten Commandments ask yourself the following questions:
(1) What are the differences between them?
(2) What changes did the Catholic Church make to the Jewish version?
(3) Why would the Catholic Church make those changes?
(4) What changes to the Catholic version did the Protestants make?
(5) Why would they have made them?
(6) Is the Protestant version more similar to the Catholic or Jewish version?
(7) Which version would Jesus have known?
1. Jewish
2. Catholic
3. Protestant*
I
1. I am the Lord your G-d who has taken you out of the land of Egypt.
2. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
3. You shall have no other gods but me.
II
1. You shall have no other gods but me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain.
3. You shall not make unto you any graven images.
III
1. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
2. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
IV
1. You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
2. Honor your father and your mother.
3. You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
V
1. Honor your mother and father.
2. You shall not kill.
3. Honor your mother and father.
VI
1.You shall not murder.
2.You shall not commit adultery.
3.You shall not murder.
VII
1. You shall not commit adultery.
2. You shall not steal.
3. You shall not commit adultery.
VIII
1. You shall not steal.
2. You shall not bear false witness.
3. You shall not steal.
IX
1. You shall not bear false witness.
2. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. 3. You shall not bear false witness.
X
1.You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor. 2
2. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.
3.You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Pay close attention to the newspaper articles or news reports about this issue. See which set of Ten Commandments they want to put up. Are they supporting the Jewish, Catholic, or Protestant version?
Whose version should be displayed? By the way, what do you think about the way that the words of the Bible can be manipulated by theologians? The words are the same, it's just how they are combined. Of course the problem is that the different religious authorities tell their followers that their version is "God's word - God's will."
Feel free to make copies of this article and share it with your friends. Why not take it to your church or synagogue and make it a discussion topic? E-mail your online friends and share it with them too!
By the way, you may want to check out more than just the differences between the Ten Commandments - make sure you add the other Bibles to your collection.
*"Lutherans, oldest of the protestant denominations, agree with the Roman Catholic version, and NOT the
"Protestant" version." [E-mail from Mr. Hellmers received on 08/27/03] If you have additional information please send it to us -- "Our beliefs are large enough to include all the facts."]
If the Ten Commandments are so different -
how many more differences are there?
Maybe you need to add one or two more Bibles to your collection.
posted on May 30, 2005 04:17:12 PM new
"The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca"
Sigh. I just don't get it. Have any of these Wiccans done any real research into Pagan beliefs and rituals? There's very little history to anything I've read on the subject. The books they buy in the new age bookstores are not historical or academic in any way... Most of the stuff is just pure foolishness made up by the author of whatever book they feel like publishing this week,
If they want to call it fluffy-bunny new-agey do-no-harmy tree-huggy religion fine, but don't pretend that it's based in Pagan history. I know Pagan histroy, and the stuff that Wiccans talk about ain't it.
My sister-in-law is a Wiccan, and whenever she describes anything they do it's all I can do to keep from rolling my eyes and giggling.
Ask 10 Wiccans what they believe and you'll get 10 differing answers. They just make it up as they go along.
This is not a religios judgement, it's an acedemic statement.
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Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum sonatur.
posted on May 30, 2005 04:20:04 PM new
Well Linda I agree with you about proving a statement. I asked Logansdad to give me an answer to what he posted, he said "go look it up". Maybe a little different words than that but you get the jest.
posted on May 30, 2005 05:03:42 PM newI asked Logansdad to give me an answer to what he posted, he said "go look it up".
You asked if the who got sued. You wanted to know the answer so you go look it up. Is it that hard. It is not liked I was involved in the case. All my information came from searching the web. It was more than you did by posting false information about why the painting was taken down in the first place.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
----------------------------------
President George Bush: "Over time the truth will come out."
President George Bush: "Our people are going to find out the truth, and the truth will say that this intelligence was good intelligence. There's no doubt in my mind."
Bush was right. The truth did come out and the facts are he misled Congress and the American people about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq.
posted on May 30, 2005 05:07:41 PM new
Logansdad, when you post something you should be able to back it up. I only posted what I knew because I lived there and read the reports. You came in posted a post that needed a question answered and you told me to go look it up. You are the one that posted it not me. If you can't back your statement up then don't post. Plain and simple.
_________________
posted on May 30, 2005 05:40:38 PM newIt's my opinion that it's long overdue for the Christians to fight for their right to practice their religion freely.
You must feel like you are part of the minority, if you need to fight in order to have your voice heard.
And that means you don't tell me that I can't pray where ever I wish to pray, or that my child can't. If you don't like it...then don't do it...but don't infringe on my right to do so.
You are free to do that. Just don't force your agenda down people's throats by telling them your moral values are superior to eveyone elses.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
----------------------------------
President George Bush: "Over time the truth will come out."
President George Bush: "Our people are going to find out the truth, and the truth will say that this intelligence was good intelligence. There's no doubt in my mind."
Bush was right. The truth did come out and the facts are he misled Congress and the American people about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq.
posted on May 30, 2005 05:42:18 PM newLogansdad, when you post something you should be able to back it up.
I did prove what I posted. I proved the picture was not taken down because the picture was obscene. You wanted the specifics as to why there was a court case and I said I did not know. I proved my point. I did not have to show the case went to court. That was something you needed to know.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
----------------------------------
President George Bush: "Over time the truth will come out."
President George Bush: "Our people are going to find out the truth, and the truth will say that this intelligence was good intelligence. There's no doubt in my mind."
Bush was right. The truth did come out and the facts are he misled Congress and the American people about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq.
posted on May 30, 2005 06:50:40 PM newYou must feel like you are part of the minority, if you need to fight in order to have your voice heard.
Oh...but you have that so very wrong, logansdad. It's those who didn't get their man in the WH that are having the hissy fit about all 'this religious stuff' going on... ie: Bush CHANGING the US to a theocracy I'm just pointing how the US has been since it was established.
And that means you don't tell me that I can't pray where ever I wish to pray, or that my child can't. If you don't like it...then don't do it...but don't infringe on my right to do so.
You are free to do that.
Uh...no....these are things that have been taken to court...fought over...when others TRY to stop others from practicing their religion. All of them....and many, many more.
Just don't force your agenda down people's throats by telling them your moral values are superior to eveyone elses.
LOL....looks who's talking about 'agendas'
I've never done that...here or anywhere else. Not my style.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
I know what you mean about the Wiccans. I go to the Summer Solstice celebration every year and each year they are there. They seem to be saying something different each and every year. Puzzling. Maybe like so many other people, they are just looking for something to grasp onto. I haven't a clue on it. Anyway, I find meditating with the Buddhist Monk far more enlightening anyway.
posted on May 30, 2005 07:30:34 PM new
[i]LOL....looks who's talking bout 'agendas'
I've never done that...here or anywhere else. Not my style.[/i]
Now that if that is not enough hot air to fly Steve F. around the world in his balloon I am dont know what would be.
Your agenda is anything that Bush trys to pedal to the American people. It is called the socket puppet agenda. Everyone has an agenda excedpt for Linda. That is a good one.
Absolute faith has been shown, consistently, to breed intolerance. And intolerance, history teaches us, again and again, begets violence.
----------------------------------
President George Bush: "Over time the truth will come out."
President George Bush: "Our people are going to find out the truth, and the truth will say that this intelligence was good intelligence. There's no doubt in my mind."
Bush was right. The truth did come out and the facts are he misled Congress and the American people about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq.
posted on May 30, 2005 08:38:59 PM newYour agenda is anything that Bush trys to pedal to the American people.
LOL...I hate to be the one to break this to you, logan, but both our Constitution and practicing our religions were around LONG before President Bush was born.
Everyone has an agenda excedpt for Linda. That is a good one.
Glad you found something funny. But no, I post my political positions and post about politics just like everyone else does. So...maybe you think we all have agendas when we do that.
OR maybe hearing how the other side of the aisle thinks...upsets you for some reason - like lack of tolerance for opposing views. Maybe you should READ your own sig line.
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Four More Years....YES!!!
posted on May 30, 2005 08:53:43 PM new
Didn't find the USSC decision that I spoke of but did find the two cases that will go before the USSC next month...June.
Mathew D. Staver commented, I am pleased that the Supreme Court now has before it information regarding the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals decision, which upheld a display of the Ten Commandments identical to the display in the Kentucky courthouses. The reasoning of the court of appeals decision is helpful and should be persuasive to some of the Justices on the United States Supreme Court.
Our shared American and Western legal tradition has unquestionably been impacted and shaped in part by the Ten Commandments.
A decision in the Supreme Court cases of McCreary County v. ACLU of Kentucky and Van Orden v. Perry is expected anytime between now and the end of June.
---------
Ten Commandments Controversy Gains Momentum in Kentucky
by Mathew D. Staver
The controversy regarding the posting of the Ten Commandments began in Kentucky when the United States Supreme Court in the 1980 case of Stone v. Graham ruled that the Ten Commandments posted on a classroom bulletin board were unconstitutional.
The court ruled that students may be induced to venerate and possibly even obey the dictates of the Ten Commandments, and in the majority opinion, that would be unconstitutional.
Since 1980, many things have changed. The Supreme Court has backed away some of its "separation of church and state" arguments that developed in the 1960's. Chief Justice Rehnquist has stated that the often misused "separation of church and state" phrase is an inaccurate representation of American history and should be utterly and frankly abandoned.
Additionally, since 1980, conservative Christians have entered the judicial arena from which they were noticeably absent in the 1960's and 70's.
Groups like Liberty Counsel have made great strides in restoring and regaining some of the liberties that we lost through judicial activism.
Three cases that involve a historical display which contains the Ten Commandments have now arisen again in the state of Kentucky. These cases are poised to go to the United States Supreme Court and may ultimately erase the United States Supreme Court decision rendered in 1980.
Liberty Counsel represents Pulaski County Judge Darrell Beshears, McCreary County Judge Jimmie Green and the Harlan County School Board in a suit brought by the Kentucky chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union seeking to remove three separate historical displays that contain the Ten Commandments.
Judges Beshears and Green have the historical displays posted in their courthouses and the Harlan County School Board has the historical display posted in the district schools.
The historical display contains nine documents which include the Mayflower Compact, Declaration of Independence, Ten Commandments, Magna Charta, Star Spangled Banner, National Motto of the United States of America, Preamble to the Kentucky Constitution, the Bill of Rights to the United States Constitution, and a picture of Lady Justice along with an explanation of each document.
The ACLU wants the court to remove these historical displays and has asked that these judges be held in contempt of court for displaying the Ten Commandments.
The Kentucky Ten Commandments case has received a shot in the arm by a recent federal court ruling from the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals.
The Sixth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals governs several states including Ohio and Kentucky. The federal court of appeals ruled in a 9-4 decision that the Ohio state motto, "With God All Things Are Possible", is constitutional.
The federal court ruled that the question of public acknowledgment of religion is an easy question to answer when viewed against the historical background of the First Amendment.
The court ruled that the original intent of the First Amendment was to prohibit a national establishment of religion; it was not meant to prohibit public acknowledgments of religion.
The court noted that the Ohio state motto, which comes from Jesus in the book of Matthew, is similar to the National Motto. The state motto does not coerce belief and does not force anyone to support a particular denomination.
The Kentucky case will ultimately proceed through the appeals channel up through the same federal appeals court that decided the Ohio state motto. From there, the case will go to the United States Supreme Court.
[ edited by Linda_K on May 30, 2005 09:16 PM ]
posted on May 31, 2005 04:31:57 AM newSo now am I to 'take' it that it was just an example of the differing groups of Christians you were implying [imo] who are 'fighting' over which versions to use? Because if you are/were then I sure haven't heard any stink coming from one group of Christians against another group of Christian on this subject [which version of the 10 commandants should be used].
I said nothing about anyone fighting over which version. You either misunderstood, or saw an opportunity to put words in my mouth, and it appears you're still trying to do that.
I personally think you were trying to make an issue...that's really not an issue at all.
You're mistaken. My paragraph which you quote above was merely an attempt to show that there are in fact at least 3 versions of the ten commandments. Quite a few folks a unaware of that fact. That you read into it something different is your error, not mine.
One more comment for dbl and then I'm all done here.
Justice is blind to outside coercion. Faith is blind to outside reason.
____________________________________________
Dick Cheney: "I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 9/11..."
posted on May 31, 2005 05:10:27 AM newJustice is blind to outside coercion. Faith is blind to outside reason.
Thanks profe, I like that!! Sounds like it was something a great philosopher may have said at one time? Will have to mull it over awhile though, and see what I think it really means - and if I agree with it as a stated truth....
Be tolerant that I am different than you. Be tolerant that I wish my child to be able to wear a cross to school. There are much worse things kids wear now-a-days.....go pick on them. 
