posted on September 28, 2000 08:38:28 PM new
I guess my user ID gives me away as to my thoughts on shillers. I am an eBay power seller now, but at one time I purchased many items on eBay. After the first time I realized that I had been shilled, I became a "netcop" for awhile. I have been the cause of many shillers getting their accounts suspended. I haven't hunted any shillers down for a long time because I seldom bid any more.
Shillers are SCUM! Yes, this is directed at a specific class of people. A very low class.
[ edited by Noshill on Sep 28, 2000 08:39 PM ]
[ edited by Noshill on Sep 28, 2000 08:40 PM ]
posted on September 28, 2000 10:53:03 PM new
Shill bidding in a live auction is decided from state to state. In MOST states it is illegal. I have not checked this out further for a link, but I believe that it is a federal felony to shill bid on an online auction.
Months ago a man in California placed a painting online that may have been from a famous artist. Opening bid was $0.25 and it closed for over $150,000.00.
It was found out that the seller was shill bidding. He has been arrested and has been charged by the Federal government for fraud.
The winner thought he was bidding against someone else who really wanted the item.
Ebay says it's fraud. The federal government says it's fraud.
Shill bid and risk a ticket to jail.
I wonder if seller's who think it is ok to shill bid think it would also be ok to roll back to odometer on a used car before selling it.
As for the moderators being accused of going overboard, I understand this person being suspended.
First of all, shill bidding is illegal online. The person opened the AW account with the name "Shiller." Had the person opened the account as Joe Moe and posted the same topic, I don't think that a suspension would have happened.
Then Shiller goes on to say that shilling is an art form, that nothing is wrong with it, bad bad ebay for taking it away. In reality, it's quite harmless.
Ask any bidder that has been hit by shilling if it is harmless.
It's clear that shiller's intent was to be disruptive. In effect shiller is saying, "Hey all, it's ok to commit fraud to get more money for your auction."
posted on September 29, 2000 12:03:35 AM new
kellyb1.. The arrest did not come from the bidding, as a local artist came foward, and told that he was paid by the person to paint a painting in a certain style, it was not a garage sale item. The arrest was made due to the fact that the seller knew who the artist was and misrepresented it.
edhdsn
posted on September 29, 2000 01:21:49 AM new
edhudson,
do you have a link to an article anywhere? I live within 30 minutes of the seller, and all of the reports in the paper here stated that ebay had evidence that the seller has shill bid on this auction, as well as some of his other auctions.
If you remember the sellers name could you email it to me at: [email protected]
posted on September 29, 2000 05:40:30 AM new
Ebay stopped its legal shilling for several reasons. The reserve fee is one, though it was stopped long before that. As usual the PTB thought it was OK and 'right' till someone pointed out that stealing by another name is still theft.
The fact that shilling/price maipulation is a Federal Offense and is covered in the Uniform Commercial Code of the U.S. Ebay was having visits by the Justice Dept. and found that if they were OK with it, then they were complicit in the commision of a felony and their exposure was much more than they could bear.
The only time that a form of shilling is allowed is when it is diclosed in the terms of sale. Go read the terms of the brick & mortar house like Sotheby's Christies and the like....they state in their TOS that they may 'advance' the bidding on behalf of the owner of the goods in order to reach the reserve price. They can also withdraw an item AT ANY TIME if they feel that the bidding is not commensurate with the value of the item. IOW- you can get a bargain but we will not let you steal.
Shilling on line is often like shooting ducks in a barrel. Ebay has consistently refused to implement what is needed to combat it......a more stringent registration
method.
posted on September 29, 2000 08:08:15 AM newkellyb:
"I wonder if seller's who think it is ok to shill bid think it would also be ok to roll back to odometer on a used car before selling it."
No one is talking about misrepresenting an item, just shilling---which simply is causing someone to pay an amount of money for something that they already agreed to pay by nature of their proxy bid.
posted on September 29, 2000 08:31:31 AM newI don't see what the big deal is.
Why not try looking at this from the buyer's point of view? Regardless of what their proxy bid is, the buyer's goal is certainly not to pay as much as they can for the item. It's an auction- buyers are trying to get things as cheaply as posible. Also, shilling is against the rules (at least, as far as auctions on eBay), so you shouldn't be surprised that buyers would take exception to the practice. If you don't see what the big deal is, you probably need to think a little harder.
posted on September 29, 2000 09:01:55 AM new
"What is wrong is to claim that you are offering an item under certain terms and then deceiving the bidder and intentionally violating those terms. "
Whose terms? I don't believe the shiller is stating that they don't shill.
What's the difference between the reserve price and the price that the seller shills it up to? The perfect defense mechanism is DON'T bid more than you are willing to pay.
Would it make you feel better if they used a reserve? I don't see the difference...other than a little mind game. But then again, auctions are a big mind game to begin with.
posted on September 29, 2000 09:35:07 AM new
There's a huge difference between eBay's old policy of allowing a seller to bid once on their own auction, using their own ID, and what we currently call "shilling"- DECEPTIVELY bidding on your own auction to drive the final price higher.
Ditto the practice allowed in some states that allows B&M auctions to place a bid on an auction- this is only allowed when is is DISCLOSED up front. That's quite different than deceptive shill bidding.
Deceptive shill bidding is theft. It's a crime. It's stealing from the bidder, no different than if the shiller placed a hand in his pocket and took the money.
In California, they call it Theft by Trick or Device. Example: Seller starts widget auction at $1 no reserve. Bidders run it up to $10, and bidder A places a proxy of $20- leaving the high bid at $11. No other bidders on the horizon, so crooked seller deceptively shill bids, raising bidder A's bid to $19. Auction closes.
In a legitimate auction, bidder A would have won the item for $11. In this crooked auction, shilling seller has stolen an additional $8 from the bidder- and bidder isn't even aware he's a victim.
Shilling sellers are a bane at eBay. They should be suspended indefinately, and prosecuted. They are theives.
posted on September 29, 2000 09:49:57 AM new
mrpotatohead:
Some "rules" are concerning very minor issues. Burglary is not one of those. If you can't understand that, I cannot help you. That is an issue of basic logic and intellectual aptitude.
posted on September 29, 2000 10:00:28 AM newSome "rules" are concerning very minor issues. Burglary is not one of those. If you can't understand that, I cannot help you.
Oh, but you are wrong- I do understand. You have helped me tremendously. You have indicated that you believe rules are only important when they benefit you personally. I'd say that's a rather hypocritical outlook on life, but that's just me...
UCC 2-238 (4): "(4) If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller's behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at his option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale. This subsection shall not apply to any bid at a forced sale."
- Shilling is legal in almost every State.
A seller placing a bid on his/her own auction is lawful in many states, but only if prior notice is given.
edited to fix link
[ edited by JSmith99 on Sep 29, 2000 10:32 AM ]
posted on September 29, 2000 10:49:29 AM new
Forget the word "shiller" and the negative connotations it has.
In a brick and morter auction house, at least here in California, UNLESS the auction is stated up front to be an ABSOLUTE auction, EVERY item up for sale is presummed to have a secret reserve. The auction house does not have to notify the audience of this fact since it IS the terms of the sale unless otherwise stated. Similar to a deed for real property...by law, unless it is stated specifically as "joint tenancy" the property is held as tenants in common. At auctions (in California) the default terms are "everything has a reserve" unless otherwise stated.
Since everything has a reserve and will not be sold under that price, the auctioneer can bid on the item for the consignor. He does not have to announce this. The uninitiated could think the auctioneer is "pulling bids off the wall" but all the auctioneer is doing is bringing the bid to the point where it IS for sale.
The auctioneer is also allowed to have his employees bid up to the reserve, or the auctioeer is allowed to have the consignor do the bidding.
BUT..it can only be up to the reserve point. after that point it becomes "shilling"
As Steve pointed out, the auctioneer also has the right to pull any item whose bids are not comesurate with the items value. Actually, it is more like a duty. The auctioneer has a duty to the consignor to protect the consignor's interests. To allow a $1000 item to sell for $75 is not fair to the consignor.
I have seen many times an auctioeer will pull an item saying "sorry, I can't let this go for that price. It will be in the next auction" ( a few time I was the high bidder with a bid that would have "stolen" the item).
The difference is that on ebay, non reserve auctions are "absolute" auctions. Although the site TOS don't specifically identify them as "absolute", the fact that the site rules say the seller must sell to the high bidder in a non-reserve auction means the auctions are "absolute" (absolute auctions are defined as an aution where the item will be sold, no matter the bid.).
Anyone who will disregard the rules on ebay, no matter how wrong they think the rules are, is an unethical person and I wouldn't want to deal with them.
posted on September 29, 2000 11:00:19 AM new
Some recent news articles about Federal criminal investigations into deceptive online auction shilling:
"Self-bidding, known as shill bidding, is forbidden by eBay and is generally illegal at traditional auctions. Participation in a bidding ring violates federal laws prohibiting mail and wire fraud. Each count carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison and $1 million in fines."
posted on September 29, 2000 11:11:49 AM new
Steve..notice that each one of those articles identify the crime as being wire fraud to mail fraud..not shilling per se.
You are correct that auctions not explicitly listed as being "without reserve" are automatically assumed to have a reserve. UCC 2-238 also covers this.
However, you are wrong when you say this means the auctioneer can bid for the seller or accept bids on the seller's behalf. UCC 2-238 (4) is quite explicit that this is not allowed.
posted on September 29, 2000 12:16:40 PM new
Whether or not shill bidding is illegal, it's plain NOT NICE. It may be legal, but it's definitely not ethical. I sell on commission for dealers and on one occasion I caught one of the dealers bidding on his own item. I canceled the bids and told him in no uncertain terms that if he did it again I would no longer sell for him. Shill bidding artificially inflates the price of an item. Buyers should be able to trust sellers. If we start shill bidding, we will lose our customers' trust and thus lose our customers and our businesses. Just remember: What goes around, comes around. If you cheat people, you'll find yourself on the receiving end fast.
