vargas
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posted on October 5, 2000 07:29:45 PM new
OTWA is Online Traders Web Alliance. It's affiliated with Honesty.com.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 5, 2000 07:46:33 PM new
Hi kateartist,
Not being combative,but every time I have investigated this claim it has been something on the end user's part that caused the withdrawal. Since I can't show you the login records and actions on an account, I can't dissuade your fears.
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booktrader
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posted on October 5, 2000 08:42:49 PM new
WOW, you guys are scaring the piss out of me. How can PayPal get away with this?
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KateArtist
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posted on October 5, 2000 08:55:44 PM new
I'm not scared that PayPal will make mistakes. I know it will - for someone - sooner or later.
But the point is that ~I~ want to make the decision to trust PayPal for a service because ~I~ think PayPal is trustworthy.
I don't appreciated being lied to, misled, bullied, extorted, or led down the garden path into trusting PayPal to not f*ck up my life.
And you have to agree that messing with my checking account is a very good way to do that, so this trust is not taken lightly. One small amount removed and the check for the house payment bounces
Whammo - bad check fees (which domino) - I take hits on my payment record (there goes my credit rating) and I get to pay lovely whopping late payment fees.
Now my bank will refund me all bounced check fees and send letters explaining the problem to my creditors. They are trustworthy people - because they messed up once and did exactly that. It took more than one of their representatives a lot of time to straighten all that out, but they did it and they did it the day I found their mistake and they answered the phone immediately.
It's one of the reasons that I use this bank, even though their fees aren't the cheapest around.
Your service representatives don't answer email and don't explain anything.
Perhaps after a while, I might have trusted PayPal to be allowed to remove money from my checking account if I felt they were doing a good job, but at this time from the mistakes that I myself have experienced your company make, that hasn't happened yet. And let's face it Damon - that bit about the credit card/debit card was PayPal's mistake, not the customer's.
Also Damon - I've never used a credit card to pay for anything I've ever bought using Paypal. I exclusively use the balance from other people depositing money into my account and I tend to leave quite a bit of money in there just for that purpose.
I just don't want to play with more money than I've won.
Period.
Paypal can make the game as profitable for themselves as they like using convoluted rules and services that sound far more impressive and useful than they are and that would be fine - but they aren't ethical about playing - they lie.
Period.
And you are a part of that.
Call it peer pressure.
Kate
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labbie1
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posted on October 5, 2000 09:25:39 PM new
PPD, I do not want to cause mass hysteria and not to be combative, but I can guarantee that the money that was taken out of my checking account ($25) was not my fault. In fact, at the time that it was taken out (Feb. 25), we did not have the option of having money taken out of our checking accounts to fund our accounts unless we wished to physically send a paper check to PayPal, so there was no way for this to have been the "end user's part that caused the withdrawal".
I e-mailed and then called as soon as I received my checking statement as this never showed up in my PayPal account as a deposit or a transfer to my PayPal account from my checking account.
I received a call from your customer service who requested a copy of my checking account which I faxed to them with a cover letter.
I then received another call from customer service credit card dept. who went over everything with me again and admitted confusion as to why it would have been taken from my checking account. He tried to direct me to a payment through PayPal that I made on 1/8 for which PayPal had to get $25.00 to cover. However, that was quite correctly taken from my credit card and my cc statement proved that.
That customer service person then transfered the problem to PayPal's checking department but not before he put in a little blurb that they were soon going to gear up for business accounts which would automatically sweep into your checking each night and include international transactions.
On 6/14, I received the refund of my $25.00 into my PayPal account with the subject: credit for 2/25 in the amount of $25.00.
So, I can assure you that it can and did happen and I have the documentation in hard copies as proof.
I did not make a big deal of it at the time because it was a mere $25.00 and mistakes happen and it WAS returned to me, but I feel I must let you know that all claims are not false or something on "the end user's part that caused the withdrawal".
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 5, 2000 09:36:00 PM new
Hi kateartist,
I am truly sorry that you feel that way, but I can't change your perception. You would find me well respected by my peers and customers and you would know that I take personal integrity and professional integrity very seriously.
Many times issues are not always as they appear and at times it can be frustrating that some don't come back to post that their scenario has been resolved. I am here to make sure that they are resolved and users have my email address to get them corrected. If I have to direct it somewhere else and it is not taken care of, users are more than welcome to contact me to make sure that they are.
Users make mistakes as well. If the company makes a mistake, we will make all attempts to correct them when brought to our attention. All feedback on these forums, be they negative or positive or policy related, does merit scrutiny at all levels.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 5, 2000 10:01:17 PM new
Hi labbie1,
I would be very interested in this information. Do you still have the documentation and could you fax it to me at 650-251-1222 to my attention?
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fountainhouse
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posted on October 5, 2000 10:22:33 PM new
Thanks, vargas, for that heads up.
I don't think AWs TOS allow me to post a link to the thread vargas refers to, but here's the URL: http://otwa.honesty.com/forums/Forum16/HTML/000791-6.html
(hope that's allowed!)
It's rather confusing, but the bottom line is this:
paypal not only froze a user's account (which had $3000 in it), but deleted the account history and WITHDREW $1,000 FROM THE USER'S "VERIFIED" CHECKING ACCOUNT.
Unfortunately, she didn't discover the latter withdrawal until her debit card was refused while buying groceries. She has had very little success in prying ANY information from paypal. Meanwhile, this has been going on for three or four weeks, as I understand it.
So much for the "we promise not to withdraw your funds without permission" garbage.
Geez I'm glad I didn't verify.
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koto1
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posted on October 5, 2000 10:46:14 PM new
Wow...this thread is still going. Looks like my story just added fuel to the fire.
paypaldamon - Thanks for helping me out!
"Who's tending the bar? Sniping works up a thirst"
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uaru
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posted on October 6, 2000 12:03:39 AM new
"It's rather confusing"
I got interested in that thread when the woman casually mentioned she was accepting PayPal payments from "some guy in Romania" and mailing him Western Union money orders and he was giving her a 7% kickback. Apparently she just thought she was doing a stranger a favor for a few extra bucks.  I'd love to know the whole story on that one.
From what I read the woman made initiated a deposit that was stopped... like you said it's rather confusing. But the accepting payments for some guy she didn't know in Romania was the part that made me smile.
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outoftheblue
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posted on October 6, 2000 12:37:30 AM new
uaru
"the accepting payments for some guy she didn't know in Romania was the part that made me smile.
What she did was not very smart. Agreed! But the part that gets me is (if I read it right) her account was frozen for a month and when she spoke to the PayPal investigator they had not even started the investigation or reviewed the available information. Also the part about withdrawing funds from her verified x.com account (contrary to their own TOS). Withdrawing funds from her Key Bank checking account (also contrary to their TOS). Erasing her PayPal account history? What was the purpose in that?
It seems to me that the PayPal/X.com Gestapo is out of control.
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uaru
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posted on October 6, 2000 02:30:10 AM new
"What she did was not very smart. Agreed!"
I think saying she wasn't very smart might be a bit of an understatement. I'd love to know the whole story, but I know I never will.
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labbie1
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posted on October 6, 2000 05:49:02 AM new
PPD--"Hi labbie1,
I would be very interested in this information. Do you still have the documentation and could you fax it to me at 650-251-1222 to my attention?"
I will absolutely be happy to fax the documentation to you. Please either post to this thread (which I have on e-mail) or e-mail me (I am not posting anonymously on this board) and I will fax it right out this morning to you.
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traceyg
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posted on October 6, 2000 06:44:25 AM new
I too have some issues with Paypal. I am thinking of switching over to ExchangePath or PayDirect myself. Perhaps their customer service will be better.>>
I have made the switch and I sleep a lot better knowing I have them listed in my auctions instead of Paypal. Paydirect doesn't allow chargebacks so, that stops a whole lot of mess right there and leaves the seller in control for customer refunds. Also they are not a mixed up can't get their act together place like Paypal. I have been using Paydirect both on Yahoo and Ebay I guess about a month now. I see no drop in sales and quite a few of my customers like it better and I don't have to worry about charge backs and half the other garbage paypal is putting the buyers through now (and it is free paydirect that is).
Why would chargebacks be a problem to a seller that isn't trying to rip people off and packs their shipments decently?>>
In answer to your question KateArtist I have not had it happen to me yet but I know a few sellers that have had people get the merchandise and then charge back to the visa saying something was wrong with it without even trying to contact the seller. I doubt anything was wrong. I know a guy that bought some computer equipment from a seller on one of the auctions. There was a connection missing to it. A 3 dollar item. Instead of Tom dealing with the sellers. He just told his credit card company that the item was incomplete and not usable and did a charge back. Now he kept the item when out to staples and got the 3 dollar item and it was very usable and he has a 800.00 piece of equipement for FREE the seller was out of luck. There was nothing they could have done that would not have cost them a lot more then 800.00 to get it back and all the agravation to boot. This happens more often then you think. So, you may want to be careful before you judge other sellers as trying to rip someone off. This guy still buys on the auctions. If you want I can send him to your auctions and you can test out your theory on chargebacks. Not trying to be cruel just answering your question. There are good reasons called protecting assets to be concerned about chargebacks that are out of a sellers hands.
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KateArtist
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posted on October 6, 2000 08:00:19 AM new
Does the credit card company not mediate the charge back? I realize that they immediately freeze the amount til the matter is settled. I would think the cc company would at the very least contact the seller and allow him or her to defend himself before final decision to chargeback.
Or with these electronic money places, does the consumer not interact with the credit card company and instead just have the money place charge it back.
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paypaldamon
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posted on October 6, 2000 11:18:24 AM new
HI labbie1,
Thank you. I am in now. Please include the details and the documentation (along with your account email address) and fax it to 650-251-1222.
Please email me at [email protected] once you send it so that I can prevent it from being lost in the fax pile.
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labbie1
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posted on October 6, 2000 12:42:39 PM new
Damon,
Done! There are 7 pages and I just faxed them.
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kasue
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posted on October 6, 2000 03:48:14 PM new
I signed up with PayDirect. I couldn't find out how to put their link into my auction description. I emailed them. They sent me instructions for putting their link into a Yahoo auction. I need help in making a clickable link to put in my Ebay auctions. Can you guys help? Could you use simple terms, please? Thank you!
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labbie1
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posted on October 6, 2000 03:56:30 PM new
kasue check the buttons thread...I posted the html over there.
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mseal1
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posted on October 6, 2000 06:05:47 PM new
One thing you might try is to file a complaint at The Internet Fraud Complaint Center https://www.ifccfbi.gov/ It is operated by the FBI and the National White Collar Crime Center. I've considered doing it regarding their new definiton of "business". If they got enough complaints, I expect they would change their program. They accepted me in the beginning as a "personal account" and now I may be in a position that puts me in another category.
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