posted on October 7, 2000 10:40:44 AMradh, the Cluetrain Manifesto is very real and I advise everyone to read it. Actually, I referenced this site to you in an earlier thread which you must have overlooked. http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&id=229090&thread=228924 You know how I detest the scum sucking, bandwidth stealing, sneaky bug infested tracking by advertisers!!
posted on October 7, 2000 12:11:20 PM
Blanche: I never saw that post. lol.
Here's an excerpt from near the end of Chapter 1:
"You have to get past the sites with commercial pretensions... You are being packaged for advertisers by some of the hippest hucksters on the planet. Dig deeper. Down to the sites that never entertained the hope of Buck One. They owe nobody anything. Not advertisers, not VC producers, not you. Put your ear to those tracks and listen to what's coming like a freight train. What you'll hear is the sound of passion unhinged, people who have had it up to here with white-bread culture, hooking up to form the biggest goddam garage band the world has ever seen....The carrier wave has been tuned at huge cost to deliver a single message: you are not free, you desire nothing but the products we produce, you have no world but the world we give you."
posted on October 7, 2000 01:47:35 PMRadh, if you haven't bought the book yet, you really should - you will LOVE it!!
This is one of my favorite reviews by the author of THE INVISIBLE COMPUTER about THE CLUETRAIN MANIFESTO:
"I told them they were full of it — that they shouldn't write the book. Hey look: this is the new economy. You don't have to make money to make money. You don't have to please the customers. Hell, if your software really worked, there wouldn't be any reason to buy the upgrade. These guys just don't understand business. It's supposed to suck. They're... well... clueless. Don't buy their book. And above all don't read it. I know what I'm talking about. See, when I first saw the primitive Mosaic browser, straight out of that cowtown just south of Chicago, I predicted that it wouldn't work. I said what a stupid idea — it would only confuse people and make our lives worse. So listen to me — listen to the real futurists!"
Since folks are 'quoting' the first chapter, the one that strikes home for me is:
[quote]"Who gives us permission to communicate what we've experienced, what we believe, what we've discovered of that world for ourselves? The question betokens a history of voice suppressed, of whole cultures that have come to believe only power is sanctioned to speak."[/quote]
I also got a kick out of the author's references to 'arguing' and how that is really at the core of the communication.
All that aside, let's assume that eBay allowed any and all of their 1000+ employees to come over here and play. Let's also assume that they identified themselves as such.
Would they be welcomed or hooted down as a hucksters?
My best guess, though, is they would be largely ignored as the majority of people here could care less about what they have to say. Why?
Because of the notion that only those with power are imbued with the power to speak.
I suspect a lot of us on the consumer side have a ways to go before the reality envisioned is a reality indeed.
You know what I think? I think that if 1000 ebaY employees started posting on AuctionWatch that the whole company would change and that their understanding of their jobs would increase by 1,000,000,000,000,000% and everyone would benefit. Of course, there would be a trial by fire. There would be screaming and gnashing of teeth at first and over time they would learn, just as we learn, how to communicate through a modem.
But see posting would have to mean NOB.S. You know, REAL discussions. And Kevin Purseglove, he would wind up with a MOP in his hand! Because who is he trying to KID?
He talks to the media... Does the media buy it? No, they take what he gives them and they convert it to sound bytes... Do the investors buy it? NO! Do we buy it? We LAUGH and/or CRY our butts off every time the guy gets quoted! He talks and he makes up stuff that sounds all nice (sometimes) but NOBODY BUYS IT! IT'S NOT REAL!!! WE KNOW THAT!!!! THEY KNOW WE KNOW IT!!! HOW EFFING STUPID IS THAT????? All it does is PISS US OFF!
OK, OK, I'll stop before I really get a rant going!
I don't know about Toyranch but I have respect for Kevin Pursglove ... knowing what I know about the fine line that has to be traversed. As a paid hack ... I mean spokesman ... he's doing the job and doing it comparatively well. It is a thankless task.
Indeed, Toy, I was doing -- before the sinking of the ship I was on -- a lot of what was suggested by the folks at cluetrain. Of course, the task was always getting management to listen. I found myself agreeing with the users much more often than I did some of the decisionmakers. But that's history.
Still the cluetrain site is quite interesting and is helping me sort out some things. For instance, right now there's a company that has asked me to do some stuff for them like I did for AU. I actually took a break from writing the proposal to answer your post.
They said the liked what I had done for AU and wondered if I could do something for them.
What I'm telling them is that I can't hype their business on interactive message boards secretly because it is not only unethical but potentially illegal. Then I add that if I hype their biz on the boards openly it will have no value. I'm stuck on what to say after that and have been for the last week.
I do know that I will be straightforward about any entanglements I might have and will disclose them when and if they ever exist. As said at cluetrain ... life is too short.
There is another book out there that ought to be a read too ... except these folks even get it better ... they give away the whole book. The link is http://www.ideavirus.com. It is a bit more pro-active in its approach.
I would tend to agree with you about the long term affect of ebay or any other company's staffers communicating openly and with soulful awareness of their personal humanity and the imperfection of their companies.
My stock phrase regarding the inevitable spelling error, gaffe etc. is that perfection has eluded me again
Good to hear from you.
Pat
PS: I wonder if anyone would care to speculate on whether the introduction of one of the current top five auctions (other than eBay) involved a paid, organized stealth-effort on any message board. I know I have my suspicions.
posted on October 7, 2000 07:41:17 PM
Cluetrain Manifesto is the most perceptive thing I've ever read about the internet. I found it a couple months ago and forwarded it to every net-aware person I know, including my former bosses at several startups (I don't think they appreciated it.) Glad you found it, it is a breath of fresh air in a manure-laden environment.....
posted on October 7, 2000 07:53:49 PM
Radh~ No, I don't get worked up every time Purseglove makes a statement. I usually chuckle or it makes me kinda wistfully sad to think that they pass that stuff off as something worth listening to...
Pat~ It's not HIM, it's his JOB. Making bland pablum statements to advance the corporate credo without saying anything of substance or real significance.
and as to the secret spamming of the boards idea...
I'm guessing you have more than JUST a suspicion! Haaahaaaaaa!!!
posted on October 7, 2000 08:26:58 PM
toyranch: PR is a thankless job, and nowadays spinmeisters are totally discredited and ignored by the analysts and press - before they've even spoken a word. Spin now has a very negative connotation, and really the whole position is simply archaic, nowadays.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
neopax: Pat, your words distress me, "For instance, right now there's a company that has asked me to do some stuff for them like I did for AU....What I'm telling them is that I can't hype their business on interactive message boards secretly because it is not only unethical but potentially illegal. Then I add that if I hype their biz on the boards openly it will have no value. I'm stuck on what to say after that and have been for the last week."
~ ~ ~ ~
IMO, which I *do* realize you did not ask for, I don't think that you should honor that "job" offer with a reply.
I am frankly sickened that you would be so approached, Pat.
How dare They insinuate the diabolical insinuation that YOU, of all people, would stoop to the level of behavior befitting the moral ethical value system of Slime Mold?
How dare they presume that someone of your *obvious* moral stature would resort to FALSE cyberposts, much less the cultivation of FALSE friendships and the manipulation & intimidation of =====> human beings <===== for Their miserable stinking bottom line. How dare They?
How dare They attempt to entice you into participating in "...a paid, organized stealth-effort on any message board"?
How dare these contemptible characatures of humanity deign to attempt to influence and manipulate netizens, to DISRUPT and MISLEAD others for their miserable, stinking bottom line?
These people are veritable scum and you should not, IMNSHO, even consider honoring Their dispicable communications with ANY reply, whatsoever.
posted on October 7, 2000 08:31:16 PM
brighid868: Hi Kim, thanks for sharing such affirmative views; I particularly appreciate it, as I am elsewise more than a bit disheartened and frankly nauseated by information in other posts, <lol>
toyranch: ya know, you are nothing, if not IDEALISTIC, but dontcha worry, I do like that about you. In angst and enthusiastic utopianism, you excitedly typed, "You know what I think? I think that if 1000 ebaY employees started posting on AuctionWatch..."
~ ~ ~ ~
Don't make me start crying, I'm already severely under the weather, from implications and inferences in Pat's poignant post.
Bobby, eBay employees will NEVER post here. Period.
The last time that eBay employees extensively interacted on messageboards, it was at the eBay Live Support Board -- remember that? Remember in 97/98, how all over the Net, people every commented that eBay had the BEST customer support of any company, virtual or 3-D.
That was WORD OF MOUTH, not viral marketing with its lies, not miserable falsehoods posted on interactive messageboards for a corporation's bottom line.
It was a FACT, plain and simple.
eBay had the BEST customer support and it was LIVE, 24/7.
AND that kEwL part of eBay was *crushed* and destroyed by repetitive, nasty, inappropriate derogatory flaming postings and other dispicable cybertricks, that I for one do NOT believe are attributable to our true ACTUAL eBay Community, who I do NOT believe act like scum and virtual slime mold. JMO.
IMNSHO, I believe that the demise of the live support was maliciously planned in advance and intentionally orchestrated, and ya know what -- eBay is so good, so far in advance of all other businesses, that removing its Number One asset did nothing, not nothing to mar its outstanding success.
And so who did it hurt, wonder of wonders? It was NOT eBay that was hurt, but US, the individual human beings who comprise the user communtity of eBay. JMNSHO
posted on October 7, 2000 08:49:40 PM
Let's see Radh~
Who are the top 5?
It's not ebaY.
It's not Yahoo!.
I really don't think it's Amazon. Not their style at all.
There was one that contacted me about MAM a while back. I spoke with them on the phone and they seemed interested. I asked that they send in some info on their site so we could post it and had to explain several times that there was NO CHARGE for this at all. Then they contacted me again and wanted to send MAM a check for 'sponsorship' and I explained again that MAM does not accept any funding from any OAI business at all ever period no way nada zip zilch uh uh BUT they can send some information and we'll put it up for free.
They thought I was asking for more money.
I told them NO WE DO NOT ACCEPT MONEY FROM ANYONE and they never even sent in the info so they could be listed for free.
posted on October 7, 2000 09:07:54 PM
Good evening radh. I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier to your favorite line from the Yahoo daily news story about PayPal but I just now returned home. I don't really want to express my thoughts concerning that company (I think the quote says it all) but I will say that they are totally "clueless" and really need to hop on that cluetrain.
I'm glad to see some other folks have found the Cluetrain Manifesto....now if we could get these dot coms to read it and actually GET A CLUE we'd be in good shape.
One of my favorite quotes from the book:
_____________________________________________
"So here comes Joe Six-Pack onto AOL. What does he know about netliness? Nothing. Zilch. He has no cultural context whatsoever. But soon, very soon, what he hears is something he never heard in TV Land: people cracking up.
"That ain't no laugh track neither," Joe is thinking and goes looking for the source of this strange, new, rather seductive sound.
So here's a little story problem for ya, class. If the Internet has 50 million people on it, and they're not all as dumb as they look, but the corporations trying to make a fast buck off their asses are as dumb as they look, how long before Joe is laughing as hard as everyone else?"
_____________________________________________
Regarding suspicion vs. proof. I have only suspicion. Had I proof, I'd have gone to the SEC. After all, positive buzz like that could have an effect on the market price of publicly held securities.
Radh:
If that were the context -- where they approached me asking if I would secretly post messages hyping their product -- I feel as you do and would have told them to stuff it immediately.
Rather my long-standing reputation was their motivation and, once they learned that AU was resting in peace, they contacted me because they knew me from my presence here and at other venues.
They have only asked me what I could do for them and so far, I've not told them I could do a thing. I'm trying to write a proposal and I'm running into the bugaboo of ... what do I do?
Radh, as far message boards, I'm just stuck with the unconvincing pitch (as far as message board activity) that "I can't post on your behalf without identifying that I am doing it and if I do say this is a paid post then it is spam and of no value."
So, Radh, no one has approached me and secretly suggested that I post messages (spam) on their behalf ... no one.
Because part of my reputation and value in the eyes of those who might send me a little business is based on my public profile, I have to address this issue. And, as is typical for me, I'm doing it honestly and in the open.
posted on October 7, 2000 09:11:24 PM
That is a beautiful quote, Blanche, absolutely remarkable, and I just luv that liddle widdle dig, that the Corporations ARE as *stooooooopid* as they look.
Didcha guys hear that PerfectYardsale.com is now kapuT? It was the part of priceline where individuals could sell.
posted on October 7, 2000 09:17:04 PM
Pat, thank YOU for the clarification, I just didn't believe what I read from your post, and it upset me, so I am very glad it did not happen.
Sounds to me like maybe it's time to take a workshop on resume writing and cover letters, hey?
You can tell them, quite honestly, that you have LONG term experience in explaining complicated convoluted issues of all sorts and also technical matters in simple plain english in such a way as the facts are communicable to the absolutely clueless. That's a very valuable skill in cyberspace.
I think Radh and I both read your post and misunderstood it in the same way. I thought you were approached to do this secret posting and had suspicions about how it would be received. That's why I was laughing and saying I thought you had more than suspicions... about how it would be received!
OK, I get it now. Glad you made that clarification Pat. Very glad!
These posts and current delimma are separated by at least 20 months in time. And recognize my suspicions may have been just envy at all the positive buzz this new entry into the field had garnered.
posted on October 9, 2000 12:22:57 PM
toyranch contends, "I think that if 1000 ebaY employees startedposting on AuctionWatch that the whole companywould change and that their understanding oftheir jobs would increase by 1,000,000,000,000,000%and everyone would benefit."
~ ~ ~
I completely and irrevokably disagree with your contention.
Were eBay employees to post at ANY public messageboard, they were be FLAMED and TROLLED and intentionally misinterpreted and fought and diss-ed and treated eggregiously again and again and again.
I suspect, toyranch, that you'll disagree with me, and state that eBay users would NOT behave in such manner.
And were you to disagree in this way, I'd say, YES YOU ARE RIGHT TOYRANCH.
However, at least 98% of eBay users, the legitimate ones, who have NO ulterior motives or hidden agendas, they NEVER post ANYWHERE, they don't even ever lurk in chatrooms or at messageboards.
However, all boards throughout the entirety of the Internet, including Usenet and even the eBay chatboards and RemarQ threaded messageboards are, IMNSHO, obviously infiltrated with dozens of fake sham multiple i.d.s whose ONLY purpose it is to spread nasty anti-ebay memes and to generally disrupt and demoralize eBay sellers.
That's my view, and the only reason I share it with you, is that I think it is absolutely desulatory and naive of you to attempt to GUILT TRIP eBay staff about NOT posting, when it's obvious that they had to shut down the LIVE Support Board because, IMO, it was similarly invaded by outright scum who want to DESTROY and CRUSH eBay.
eBay, however, is UNSTOPPABLE.
The only thing that is crushed and destroyed are stray eBay users who frequent messageboards, which is LESS THAN ONE PERCENT of all users.
Viral marketing and meme-masters are preposterously NAIVE, IMNSHO.
Both you and Bobby are right. To begin, if eBay employes were to post here, the situation you describe of the nay-sayers nuking them would be the first reaction.
But recognize that what Bobby is suggesting is also true. Ultimately they would persist and somehow survive this sometimes hostile environment. Then the pure negs would fade and ultimately ... or hopefully ... human conversation would emerge among those of us who make this market.
Radh, markets are nothing more than people. That eBay has created a location and process/procedure for it is like the market in Bagdad mushrooming around the Tigrus and Euphrates Rivers as the first marketplace in mankinds early 'cradle of civilization' history.
Yep, in those days, if you didn't pay homage to the king, sultan or whatever, you did no business in the market. Rather, you set up shop at this or that oasis far away. Over time, that oasis became a city and market of its own, and so-on and so-on through thousands of years.
The same is true in software products, which, like a marketplace, is really nothing but a tool we humans use to satisfy our wants and needs.
Like Bagdad has, through time, deminished in popularity, so has Lotus 123, WordStar and Compuserve ... because better places with better rules made better and easier for people happened over the course of a decade.
To say, as you do, that eBay is unstoppable is akin to suggesting that Pierre didn't invent an online auction marketplace, but a perpetual motion machine. He didn't.
And as far as the "scum" who shut down their live support board ... well wasn't that precipitated by the complaints over the reserve fee gambit ... or am I getting confused.
The folks at eBay know this and that is the best reason for them to open the doors and engage the obviously 'fickle' marketplace in a conversation.
But instead, they've increasingly retreated into the paradigm of labor vs. management in their relationship with their customers. Of course some folks don't care because they're comfortable with this top-down authoritarian approach. What's a boss supposed to be if not an a**.
posted on October 9, 2000 02:21:30 PM
Pat~ Very well said. I agree completely.
Once, in conversation with the exec staff at ebaY, I was talking about the need and importance of ebaY talking to their users and I lamented the Live Support board as well as the sporadic and sparse posts on the threaded boards that were supposed to replace Live Support (according to the promo for them).
One of them said that Live Support worked in the old days because there were many fewer users. As time went by it was 'like digging a mine with a shovel' and that the bigger audience required a bigger 'tool' and he believed that the answer would lie in getting a 'big backhoe' to do the digging and setting up something like the AOL celebrity chats, where people are divided into small cells and can chat among themselves while carefully moderated pre-selected members can ask pre-approved questions for everyone to see.
Somehow the talk of construction equipment being called in to deal with us harkened images of Soylent Green.
ebaY's management is divided between those who pretty much get it and those who are out shopping for construction equipment. Unfortunately, the ones shopping for construction equipment have Meg's ear a little more than those who kinda get it. Meg herself does not get it.
That doesn't mean she can't get it, or won't get it, but by the time she figures it out, there could be a new CEO. She is under the gun, she must produce for the investors and make the stock rise as well as profits or she will be removed, that is the way it works. Just ask Elon Musk.
The only thing that is inevitable is that we will be screaming at them until they start talking to us or until someone else does and we take our toys and go play with them instead.
posted on October 9, 2000 03:26:31 PM
Hello damon. I'm pleased to hear you read the book and I hope you've passed it on to the people in charge of policy at PayPal.
posted on October 9, 2000 03:27:17 PM
paypaldamon: Thanks for sharing your opinion and about the dramatic impact that reading it had on your entire life.
Recently, I have noted that MANY other members of the online auction industry, who like myself are not impressed with paypal, have nonetheless posted on other messageboards of late, -- and I'd like to join them briefly, by mentioning that I too, am astounded at how many posts are being made about a subject which I surmise that you LEGALLY are not allowed to comment upon.
I've been reading up on PR and marketing, and truly, it amazes me that SPIN and HYPE and BUZZWORDS have not already passed away, as it is obvious that neither experts nor the lay public believe a word of it. Just absolutely antiquated!
LOL!! 
