posted on October 12, 2000 01:56:51 PM
HartCottageQuilts, if I ever do get to relist it probably will be for 7 days. I had been doing 10 day auctions all along and discovered that the 7 days have done just as well. As for the white text, do you mean the hidden text keyword spamming? Why should I do that? I thought that was an eBay no no.
posted on October 12, 2000 02:01:11 PM
"I have lots of this item to sell, and came up with a great marketing angle."
... Using the name or likeness of a celebrity in advertising requires that you have their permission. That usually means PAY for it like other advertisers.
The only exception would be if you were reselling an authorized Selena product, such as a CD or poster.
posted on October 12, 2000 02:15:20 PM
Mzalez -
Unless you have a contract with the estate of Selena, you cannot use her name or likness to sell your stuff. Period.
The estate has legal rights to the commercial use of her image, recordings and name. It doesn't matter if "I never claimed it was an official Selena product" ... you used her famous name to attract buyers to your product. That's commercial use and they are well within their rights to whack you for it.
The only legal exceptions would be to use her name in an ad for a Selena poster, photo, CD or other authorized Selena-related item.
posted on October 12, 2000 02:25:57 PM
Thanks abacaxi for your clear reply. That's not what I read though, in the links sent in the auction cancellation letter I received from eBay. I will go back and read it again. Maybe what you say is there in black and white, but I must have missed it if it is. It's hard for me to understand, and I've read through it twice already. Sometimes it takes a few times for me to get in into my head.
HartCottageQuilts, yes, the 'white on white text' is illegal on eBay. I found this in their rules:
--------------------------------
Here are some examples of key word spamming that are not permitted:
Hidden Text. HTML included in the listing, such as hidden text (for example "white on white" or source tags (meta or header tags) are not permitted.
--------------------------------
I'm sure you must know this, because I almost always read your posts and you seem quite knowledgeable. So were you being sarcastic or were you joking? Maybe you are having a bad day? Are you mad at me for some reason? If for some reason I ever offended you, I am very sorry, because I didn't do it on purpose. But I do notice you come across mean to me and at times ignore my questions to you. I won't feel bad if you plain just don't like me and want me to bug off, you have that right to not like anyone you chose. I will if that is what you want. But I'm puzzled by what I perceive as your hostility towards me.
posted on October 12, 2000 02:37:29 PM
"it offers a product or contains material which violates their copyright, trademark or other rights."
The "other material" is Selena's name, and the other rights part, is the right to control who uses her name in advertising.
It's not the rose-shaped Mardi Gras beads, it's the using Selena's name to attract buyers to the beads. And given that Mardi Gras is not known as a Tex-Mex holiday, you are definitely stretching the association of Selena's fondness for REAL white roses to attach her name to plastic beads.
posted on October 12, 2000 02:54:52 PM
abacaxi, so the 'material' they are refering to is the copy in my ad. I kept thinking that as long as it wasn't on the product itself, it was OK.
BTW, Mardi Gras is celebrated all aroung the Gulf coast, even in Texas. Mardi Gras beads are well known in Corpus Christi, TX, where Selena is from. Also, Mardi Gras beads aren't just for Mardi Gras. They are so ingrained in the Gulf coast culture, we have them for almost all events...strawberry festivals, tomato season, Christmas, New Year, football games, etc. etc. etc. White roses on Mardi Gras beads are not a far stretch from Selena and the Tejano culture.
can you quote your source? Doesn't sound right to me...
Are you saying that if I sell a vintage Life magazine with Marilyn Monroe on the cover, I cannot use MM's name in the advertisement?
If I seel a People magazine with a feature on Princess Diana, I cannot mention her name?
In my view, I can mention the names, use them in my advertisement as much as I like because they accurately describe the product I am legally selling. And neither of these fall within your stated exception- neither were created with the celebrity's permission.
posted on October 12, 2000 04:21:21 PM
mzalez - You have to learn to take with a grain of salt whatever you read on these boards. They can be very helpful but there are alot of self proclaimed experts who have no idea what they are talking about but will still give advice. IT IS 100% LEGAL TO WRITE IN YOUR AUCTION THAT "SELENA WOULD HAVE LOVED THIS ITEM". It infringes on absolutely nothing and you certainly don't need to have a contract with her estate to use that description in your auction. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
posted on October 12, 2000 04:28:23 PM
How about this? I sell a watch that was legally obtained from the estate of the old guy who was head over heels in love with Anna Nicole Smith (for the few months before he died at 90+). The watch was a gift from Anna Nicole to her briefly deliriously happy hubby. I cannot mention her name in the auction listing?
Heck, not only can I mention it, it will be in the title. Maybe in bold.
That's not infringement, that's just good marketing.
posted on October 12, 2000 05:01:16 PM
I have to disagree with several posters whose opinions I usually respect (I still respect your opinions in this case, just don't agree), & go with mzalez, magguy. et al on this one.
Just mentioning a celebrity's name is not copyright infringement. If that were so, many publications would have a hard time coming up with enough copy to print an issue. Reporting fact, expressing an opinion or making a comparison is perfectly acceptable. For exmple, opining that a black t-shirt is "perfect for a Megadeth fan" is not the same as calling it a "Megadeth t-shirt"...a subtle but significant difference. Likewise, saying that a band "sounds like" Metallica differs from calling it a "Metallica band", and saying you could use a hat to "dress up like Clint Eastwood" is not representing it as a "Clint Eastwood hat". Yes, HCQ, I believe you COULD say that a quill pen is "just like that used by Ben Franklin"; it's either fact or a reasonable opinion.
Where you may have gone wrong, mzalez, in my opinion, is by just sticking the name SELENA in the auction title with no qualifiers (like "great for Selena fans" ). That's more using the name to attract attention than expressing opinion on suitability (again, a small but important distinction). It may not have saved you from the Vero folks, but I don't consider it spamming to point out a connection, make a valid comparison, or offer a reason why a particular group might have an interest in an item. Hey, that's just marketing!
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read.
[ edited by cathammer on Oct 12, 2000 05:02 PM ]
[ edited by cathammer on Oct 12, 2000 05:13 PM ]
posted on October 12, 2000 05:16:00 PM
Thanks for your support brookylnguy. I'm assuming you are from Brooklyn (gee, how did I know that??). I used to live in the Bronx (Tremont) and hubby used to live in Queens (Astoria). How's the weather up there these days? I do miss home.
I did ask for the advice, and most of it is very good. But I will have to take one post in particular, tho, with a grain of salt...
magazine guy, I love your example! DELIRIOUSLY happy, heh heh! Anyway, how do we take this good marketing and put it in a form that does not break any laws? Although for some VeROs, it doesn't seem necessary that any laws are broken to get an auction pulled.
cathammer, you are right about sticking the name SELENA in the auction title without qualifiers. I would have loved to have put 'Attention Selena Fans', but there wasn't enough room--so just the Selena. As you see, my bad move! If I ever get to redo the auction, I will have to do some surgery on my title and ad. But some here say even with the changes and qualifiers it was not legal.
posted on October 12, 2000 06:12:49 PMWhy should I do that? I thought that was an eBay no no.
Ohhh. Silly me; I didn't realize you actually wanted to follow both spirit and letter of ebay rules...just how to keep from getting caught before your auction ends.
Next time I'll add a smilie so you can see me rolling my eyes.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Oct 12, 2000 06:16 PM ]
posted on October 12, 2000 06:36:37 PM
Okay....this probably has nothing to do with the main questions here, but IMHO, if you were using the name of a deceased relative of mine, for profit, and exploiting her death, without my permission, it would greatly upset me.
I understand the white rose connection, but the connection would not be as strong for fans if she had lived. And maybe, emotionally, your use of the wording in the title hit them as use for no other purpose but to make you money, not to honor Selena or her memory. That may not be your intent, but it may be the way it came across to them.
And even if you didn't name them Selena White Rose Mardi Gras beads, you did conjure up her image and maybe that is what their point is?
(I'm also upset by dead celebrities selling coke, even if coke does have their estate's permission, so maybe I just see things differently!)
posted on October 12, 2000 06:50:17 PM
I understand your point, Jane- but the fact is that all sorts of things can upset folks. That doesn't make the action that caused the upset right or wrong, necessarily, or legal or illegal.
And wording title for no other purpose than to make the seller money? That's what sales and marketing is all about. Writing a title that will attract the most eyeballs, while still staying within eBay's guidelines and the law- that's a good thing, IMO.
Remember the Outpost.com commercials that aired on TV a few months ago? The ones with the gerbils (?) being fired out of a cannon, being aimed to pass through the center hole of a large letter "o" in "Outpost?" Some missed, of course, and outraged the animal rights folks (who didn't seem to care that there were no real animals used in commercial). But I thought it was a riot- it was effective advertising even though it offended some.
Maybe not a good analogy, but I still smile when I recall that commercial!
posted on October 12, 2000 07:03:52 PM
HartCottageQuilts, I don't know why you think I was trying to get away with something illegal. I'm posting here to find if there is a legal way to carry out my marketing idea. If I can't, then I accept that.
You still haven't answered my questions I asked you earlier over the uncalled for response you gave to me:
"Maybe you are having a bad day? Are you mad at me for some reason? If for some reason I ever offended you, I am very sorry, because I didn't do it on purpose. But I do notice you come across mean to me and at times ignore my questions to you. I won't feel bad if you plain just don't like me and want me to bug off, you have that right to not like anyone you chose. I will if that is what you want. But I'm puzzled by what I perceive as your hostility towards me."
I asked you up front if you have a problem with me, and you haven't answered me in a straightforward manner, but instead keep up with bewildering comments. If you think I'm an (idiot, slimeball, turkey--fill in with opinion of your choice), then why continue posting here? I still don't have a clue why you are so hostile towards me.
The sad part of all this was I used to look forward to reading your responses and looked up to your opinion. You've lost my respect and it's very sad.
I'm going to seriously take brooklynguy's advice to take these posts with a grain of salt. Maybe you are just having a bad day and I'm a convenient target to take it out on. I'm saying a little prayer for you right now. So I'm sorry, but your posts upset me so I'm not going to respond to them anymore. What a shame.
-----------------------------------------
jmjones, that thought crossed my mind, too. I imagined myself in the shoes of a family member. Yes, you are right I do sell on eBay to make mone--and to have fun. I enjoy all the items I sell, or I wouldn't sell them. I enjoy selling very much, too. I don't post for the purpose of honoring or remembering anyone, I have to admit, but personally I do remember Selena. (My daughter's name is Selena!) But if I am exploiting someone, I don't want to do that. My problem is, how do I get the roses to the Selena fans, who want them, without stepping on anyone's rights?
I've been trying to think of a 'code word' that all fans would know...sort of like the 'White Rose Queen of Tejano' or something like that...still stewing it over. Any fans got any suggestions?
Sorry, I don't agree with you about the connection between Selena and the white roses not being as strong if she had lived. Fans of Selena have associated here with the roses all along, sort of like Barbra Streisand and 'the nose'. On the other hand, it seems like most of America never even heard of Selena until she was killed. But believe you me, she's had a following ever since she was younger...all around the world. She was just so talented and a very nice person to her fans!
Thanks for posting your opinion, I appreciate it--I've got lots of great ideas to think about.
posted on October 12, 2000 07:36:45 PMmzalez, you've been told six different ways from Sunday, by a number of different posters, why what you did was against ebay rules (I'm assuming this is what you mean by "illegal" ) - what an Herculean stretch of imagination you're making in trying to concot some marketing scheme to link these beads with Selena, and how you're still pushing the envelope. Yet you doggedly persist in looking for a loophole.
Bad day? Hardly. Mad? Don't like you? Please. I haven't got the energy or the inclination to feel one way or the other about anybody not closely connected to me. However, I haven't got a lot of patience for willful ignorance, nor for those who infer that disagreement with their actions indicates some sort of personal animosity toward them.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Oct 12, 2000 07:39 PM ]
posted on October 12, 2000 08:41:09 PM
cathammer, I don't know how I missed it the first time, but thanks for posting the link about what to do when your auction is ended. Very informative!
posted on October 12, 2000 08:56:17 PM
If someone's selling a magazine with Marilyn Monroe (or Selena for that matter) on the cover, then this should be listed (e.g. "1960 XYZ Magazine Marilyn Monroe Cover" ).
If Marilyn or Selena are inside, in a short article, this can (and probably should, given their popularity) be listed, even in the title (e.g. "1994 ZYX Magazine Harrison Ford cover Selena article" ), with a good description.
I've seen people list (in the description) every celebrity shown inside a magazine (as long as there's some description of their importance in that issue, such as "Z on cover with large article, other major articles with several pictures on Y and X, short articles or columns with one or two pictures on W, V, U, T" ). That makes sense too, because it is an accurate (and thorough) description of the item.
Selena is not intrinsically involved with the particular white rose beads, however. She did not create them. She did not own them. Her estate does not sell or license them. She may not have even worn any like them (and even if she had, this may not be enough reason to mention her name unless that type of bead was relatively rare and she was one of the few to use that type -- and this might still be questionable! ). She just happened to like (however meaningfully) white roses.
Now magazines (and newspapers for that matter), either obtain (i.e. buy or get permission for) publicity photos. Candid photos are also used, but in reporting something about that person, not in attaching their name to an unrelated or otherwise unofficial product such as beads. This is perhaps a fine line of difference, because the magazine or newspaper ultimately hopes its articles are going to sell enough units, but there still seems like a major difference between reporting on or having a feature on a celebrity's life or recent actions, vs. grabbing their name and attaching it to an ad (auction in this case). These are either very different shades of grey or two things on different sides of a clear line. I don't know the specific rules.
Tabloids get sued with relative frequency, and besides the obvious nature of the reasons, I'm sure part of those reasons is because they frequency blur the line between reporting on a celebrity vs. attaching their name and image to false or very inaccurate stories.
I am not an expert, so this is about as far as I can say of my understanding of the way these things are, and you can take what I say with a grain of salt. I have paid some attention, though, at there do seem to be clear differences here, I "just" can't cite actual laws or rulings.
So... I'll leave my part of this discussion right here.
Please, just accurately describe the item. It's what eBay rules state or imply, it is what her estate is involving itself for your not doing so, and what many respondants here are saying.
Just because Selena liked white roses doesn't mean every white rose has something to do with her. Until they're called Selena Roses, they are still two different subjects.
Thank you for being willing to listen to and discuss comments with everyone, and sorry for my being so wordy.
[ Edited to move one example to its proper place and replace the original location with another. Not really substantial. ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Oct 12, 2000 11:31 PM ]
posted on October 12, 2000 09:26:08 PM
It seems to me, there's a difference between:
"LIFE magazine- with 3 photos and 5 page article about Marilyn Monroe"
and
"LIFE magazine- the kind Marilyn Monroe liked to read on the movie set"
In the first case, the reference to Marilyn Monroe is appropriate because it describes the contents of the magazine. In the second case, I'm not so sure- it seems more of a gimmick to get the attention of people who ordinarily wouldn't have looked at the item.
posted on October 12, 2000 09:27:53 PM
Didn't you read there is a big connection between cowboy hats and clint eastwood.... doesn't mean you can use Clint's name to sell cowboy hats.
posted on October 12, 2000 09:51:02 PM
"Sure... but what is the tie-in between Selena and Roses?"
Who cares? Why is it eBay's job, or anybody elses, to try to make the very subjective determination of whether there is sufficient "nexus" between Selena and roses to justify the use of her name in the auction?
The seller, and some Selena fans see the connection, and they are in a better position to understand it than the rest of us, I suspect. There's a connection. So it's not keyword spamming in my book.
Lot's of gray areas- and I think this seller should be given the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't look like intellectual property infringement, or keyword spamming to me.
And I'm not "willfully ignorant", heck, I've got a GED!
posted on October 12, 2000 09:59:28 PM
Just some quick surfing brought these items up refering to the Selena-white rose connection:
1.
From the Corpus Christi Caller Times - Selena to be honored on anniversary of death - "Buentello, who has been a longtime fan of the singer, plans to pay tribute to Selena by planting a white hybrid tea rose bush in a large ceramic pot. She'll put a small plaque on the outside with the words "Selena Forever."
She'll take the bush's first bloom to Selena's grave at Seaside Memorial Park."
2.
From the Selena Journal, March 1999 - ".I
miss the white rose...she would always be happy...I love Selena Quintanilla Perez."
3.
From S.A. News Archives, Anti-violence campaign spreads to Latin America - "...three huge billboards saying "NO MORE GUNS" in white letters across a 48-foot-long black background. The signature "Selena " and her white rose logo is at the bottom right..."
4.
I've also discovered there is a 'Selena' Hard Rock Cafe pin that has a white rose on it.
5.
From Fabula Corpus, A Home Movie for Selena - "Men remove their cowboy hats and crying children are lifted to add their white rose to the thousands that lie atop Selena's coffin."
6.
I've found many references to her as 'The White Rose'.
posted on October 12, 2000 10:04:02 PM
All the surfing did give me a good idea, though. Lots of people do refer to her as 'The White Rose', and 'Selina' rather than 'Selena'.
One of the bidders on the cancelled auction even emailed me to say in my ad that my daughter Selena loves the beads, and that is a true fact. But somehow I know that would be asking for more trouble...
posted on October 12, 2000 10:04:31 PM
My apologies to mzalez for breaking in to ask a question about the VERO program in general. Normally I'm not involved but someone has asked me to put some items on ebay which necessitates I know more.
Assume I was selling a Ralph Lauren polo shirt & assume Ralph Lauren was an active VERO participant, then:
If I list the shirt as "Colorful Designer Polo Shirt" & make no mention of the Ralph Lauren name but show a picture where the RL logo is easily recognizable, could I still be shut down for a VERO violation just for selling a RL shirt?
Or, can I only potentially be shut down if I use the RL name somewhere in the title or text?
The bottom line question is can I sell anything I want (w/in ebay guidelines) and not have to worry running afoul of VERO if I don't list the name of the company/person?
posted on October 12, 2000 10:10:51 PM
No problem, eventer, I'll move over and make you some room! Maybe we can learn something more about this VeRO thing.
I get the impression that those in the VeRO program can cancel your auction for any reason they see fit, as long as they swear your auction is violating their rights.
or source tags (meta or header tags) are not permitted.
