posted on October 14, 2005 07:47:20 AM new
Fenix: ssshhhh!! I wanted to work up to that gradually...
____________________
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -- George W. Bush
posted on October 14, 2005 08:43:52 AM new
LOL at both bunni and fenix.
There are thousands of issues that people from BOTH parties disagree or agree on. The subject of abortion is no different, imo.
There are democrats who oppose abortion, democrats who oppose partial-birth abortions...etc. I'm no different.
I've always made my views on abortion quite clear. After working in an abortion clinic....the system is abused, imo. Abortion is used as a means of birthcontrol....and since we have several other methods of preventing pregnancies....I think those would be used more...avoiding becoming pregnant taken more seriously IF abortion were regulated. And imo, there's absolutely NO reason a women who wants an abortion could decide to do just that in her FIRST trimester....not when the baby would be fully capable of surviving if born.
To me, imo, I would like to see abortions only when absolutely necessary....incest...rape....terrible genetic anomalies. But I'm realistic and recognize I am not in the majority in that thinking. Still doesn't change my personal views.
Other than that....please explain just when you think a women couldn't keep herself from becoming pregnant in the first place? Why when young girls, say teens, do become pregnant it was so terribly wrong to have them do as they did in my day - take the responsibility for their actions and grow up.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on October 14, 2005 09:23:25 AM new
Linda - I love the arguement that if they just would not get pregnant in the first place then abortion would not need to be legal. It's so childlike in it's simplicity. Of course it completely ignores the reality that women do get preganant and no one has the right to force them to have a child that they do not want. I don't understand why you believe that people should have the right to regulate their own lives until they get pregnant and they are to become to docile vessel of the hopes and dreams of the christian right.
The right to control your own body is one that should be inherent, you should have the right to not have a child that you do not want or cannot afford just as you should have the right to legally end your life when you want.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
posted on October 14, 2005 09:27:11 AM new
::Why when young girls, say teens, do become pregnant it was so terribly wrong to have them do as they did in my day - take the responsibility for their actions and grow up.::
Well, you are going to have to make up your mind there Linda - you don't believe in public assistance and you do believe in education so exactly how is it that you think that the teen is going to going to school as they raise a newborn?
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
posted on October 14, 2005 09:32:09 AM new
fenix - I just LOVE how you refuse to accept an honest and quite clearly stated statement I've made.
IF the law was to stay as it currently is....or I had the opportunity to vote for making abortions illegal again.....AND that was the only choice, no compromise to be reached, I would vote to make abortions illegal. THAT's how strongly I feel the current system is being abused. Is that any clearer for you now?
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on October 14, 2005 09:34:54 AM new
There is no question in my mind how you feel about it Linda. That does not however change the fact that I think it's unrealistic and hypocrital.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
posted on October 14, 2005 09:49:55 AM new
Well again I believe part of our disagreement on this subject comes from our age differences. You're in your 30's I'm in my late 50's. I SAW how things were handled before this became legal. We weren't murdering babies that could survive on their own IF they were allowed to be born.
There will either be compromise on this....or the law will be changed. The religious left and right, and many who aren't religious, will never accept the continuation of partial birth abortions. I think the stats show that somewhere between 80-90% of American's WANT that part of abortion laws changed.
And I believe it will happen in my lifetime.
Young girls want to play grown up games....either need to learn to protect themselves or not have intercourse. Period. Now they think it's a game....and that's why STD's are so very much on the increase. They aren't taking it seriously enough.
And how did they survive and get an education BEFORE abortions were legal. If they wanted to...if it was a true value with them....they managed. AND without government payments...that only encourage them to have more.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on October 14, 2005 10:20:52 AM new
defogger and LIAR Linda_K have nothing to say about the desperate condition their government has put this country in. Their words are empty.
BIG PHONIES THEY AND THEIR NEOCON CON-SERVATIVE FORM OF GOVERNMENT IS.
The good news is these PHONIES are no longer believed by the vase majority of Americans. YES!!!
Their CON-servative form of government was given their chance and have failed the majority of Americans.
New polls released today show that less than 30% of Americans believe this country is headed in the right direction.
That is 7 out of 10 people that no longer believe the CON-servative LIE any-longer.
posted on October 14, 2005 10:46:31 AM new
fenix, do you think there is a time when and where a young unmarried girl SHOULD get pregnant? In your estimation, is that ever a good thing?
posted on October 14, 2005 12:31:03 PM newWell again I believe part of our disagreement on this subject comes from our age differences. You're in your 30's I'm in my late 50's. I SAW how things were handled before this became legal. We weren't murdering babies that could survive on their own IF they were allowed to be born.
Linda, I am in my 50s, too--and I can say that you are WRONG. You act as if, before abortion was legalized, women never had them. Nothing is further from the truth. But back then, a coat hangers or abortion-inducing potions were administered by back-alley "experts" or, at the best, third rate doctors or med students who did abortions on the sly. Infection & even death were common results for the women. Unwed women or girls who went ahead and had their babies were shunned &/or stigmatized and their children faced a life of shame as well.
____________________
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -- George W. Bush
posted on October 14, 2005 12:41:59 PM new
I partially disagree with you bunni.
Yes, we all HEARD about those back-alley abortions...but in my lifetime and with all my girlfriends we've never known anyone who ever was that desperate. I think that issue is one those who are pro-abortion like to use as a defense for the murder of innocent children.
And yes, a couple of girls I went to school with got pregnant before graduation. One married and the other gave her child up for adoption.
Adoption isn't a bad thing....although I know the pro-abortion groups like to make it appear people don't want to adopt healthy, white babies. That just isn't true...and imo, what has caused the tremendous growth in our fertility clinics.
And again in those days not wanting to get pregnant....was the reason most young girls didn't have intercourse to begin with. They knew they could keep from getting pregnant...and so they did. Not the way it is now-a-days....where it's 'you're 13 and want sex' go for it...if you get pregnant because you didn't use protection so what...there's always an abortion. And that's just what they do.
What do you have against setting SOME limits on abortion? Why would you not agree a girl/woman could make her decision to abort within the first trimester? Why does that limitation sound so outrageous to you?
posted on October 14, 2005 12:49:09 PM newWhat do you have against setting SOME limits on abortion?
Nothing. In fact, I've never said that I was in favor of late-term abortions. What I find amusing is that you and many who oppose abortion try to make it sound like most abortions are late-term. In fact, you completely ignore anything else and act like late-term abortions are the only thing going.
I also find it strange that you make it sound as if only white women are having abortions:
Adoption isn't a bad thing....although I know the pro-abortion groups like to make it appear people don't want to adopt healthy, white babies. That just isn't true...and imo, what has caused the tremendous growth in our fertility clinics.
I also don't know what fertility clinics have to do with adoption...?
____________________
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." -- George W. Bush
posted on October 14, 2005 12:49:46 PM new
Linda: Isn't it very possible that people you knew around you had abortions but DIDN'T tell you they'd had a back-alley abortion? It was very hush-hush in those days.
You seem to think that there are lots of irresponsible women out there who get pregnant time after time and simply use abortion as a method of birth control. Studies have proven that isn't true. Abortion is a painful process and a real deterrent to multiple abortions, from my experience.
posted on October 14, 2005 12:59:30 PM new
First of all bunni, it's hard to really know the TRUE numbers of abortions because a lot of the abortion clinics aren't required to report them.
Secondly, I'm glad to hear you might not be opposed to a time limit for abortions being set.
And I have to disagree with you again on this partial-birth abortion issue. It depends on whether you're talking about abortions, in general, being performed on women after their first trimester....or after....right up until time of a normal/natural delivery. Most we dealt with were after the first trimester. And again, imo, there's no excuseable reason for that to happen unless it involved the set of circumstances I've already mention.
---------------
roadsmith - I've read your statements on abortion before. My experience was totally different from yours and I believe I've already shared that with you and others here.
Most that came to our clinic didn't want to be pregnant, hadn't used any protection and weren't the least bit emotional about having an abortion. Even if it was a second or third time for them. And many of them 'hopped' clinics too. Trying to hide the fact they'd had previous abortions at other clinics.
In addition I can count on ONE hand the number of girls/women who were interested in using any of the different methods of contraception we offered. They didn't want to gain weight....etc. All sorts of excuses.
posted on October 14, 2005 01:06:39 PM new
bunni - "I also don't know what fertility clinics have to do with adoption...?
Less acceptable healthy babies on the market to be adopted....the more infertile women started seeking out fertility treatments. It, just like the abortion industry...is just that....BIG business. And why groups such as Planned Parenthood support abortions so much....it's a BIG BUCKs industry.
Imo, what we as a Nation have allowed is nothing sort of infanticide...on a large scale.
When roe vs wade first passed, they had restrictions about the process a woman had to go through in order to obtain an abortion. Not so anymore....now it's abortion-on-demand....and imo, that's just murder.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on October 14, 2005 01:14:19 PM new
Not only am I, not anti abortion, I'm pro sterilization.
I believe that the right to lifers should adopt all those little crack babies...All the others too.
At the least they could set up a fund, supported by them, (each and every one of them) to take care of all these little babies.
Ive come to the conclusion, over the years that the people that march around the Planned Parenthood offices are morons and I have proof.
Several years ago while returning from a trip to pick up some off sized windows for a camp we had, we decided to stop at the Saw Mill tavern in Schenectady, NY. (Its a biker bar, most of us were bikers) We were coming to a stop light, where we had to make a left hand turn and there was traffic backed up because of the a rally (of idiots) at the Planned Parenthood office (I believe it was Union St. Or Ave).....Anyway as we approached they were chanting.. I dont know just what...something moronic Im sure.
So I started a chant myself...rather loud but several cars and/or trucks down the stopped traffic.... My chant was Should have S***ed instead of F***ed over and over.....Now thinking (its hard for these people) I was a brother-in- arms they started to chant with the same rote I was using, they had no idea what I was saying....least not till I got closer....If you could have only seen the disappointment on their faces as they chanted the same exact thing I chanted...then realized what they were saying.. Certainly made my day...I think it cut the rally short too. I made sure my friend drove back around the block so I could laugh at these fine people.
The moral of the story is this. Mind your own damn business.
posted on October 14, 2005 01:50:47 PM new
While I agree with Colins suggested method of preventing pregnancy....it is everybody's business....whether you want it to be or not.
Taxpayers are paying for the abortions of many women....and have a right to speak out about how they feel about their tax dollars paying for things they are opposed to. Just as the left does on things they don't want their tax dollars to be spent on.
And as far as far as 'mind your own business goes'.....who do you really know who minds their own business? I'd say very few. We're all opinionated people....especially those of us here.
And the 'mind your own business' didn't keep those who are so against families having as many children as they want to have, from voicing their negative opinions on those who choose life over abortions.
"Whenever the nation is under attack, from within or without, liberals side with the enemy. This is their essence." --Ann Coulter
And why the American Voters chose to RE-elect President Bush to four more years. YES!!!
posted on October 14, 2005 02:08:20 PM new
::fenix, do you think there is a time when and where a young unmarried girl SHOULD get pregnant? In your estimation, is that ever a good thing?::
No. I think that the person you are at 16 and the person you are at 22 don't usually bare a great deal of resembelence to each other. That is a period of exploration and personal growth, getting to know who you are and what you want to do with your life. Putting all of that on hold to have a child is losing out on too much and as a result the child loses out in terms of having a well rounded, or at least somewhat grounded, parent.
Of the probably dozen of so girls I have known in the past few years that have had kids, I think that only one of them had the maturity and focus to be a good mom and that's only because she had a hideous childhood that forced her to become an adult way too young and because she was lucky enough to have an employer that had lived thru the wringer herself, and so let her bring her child to work. I think that 5 years from now, she could be a star in her field... thing is, I think if she had not had her son that young, she could probably be there almost there now.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
posted on October 14, 2005 03:08:06 PM new
Okay, so pretty much everyone would agree, getting pregnant at 16 is not the wisest thing.
Why wouldnt they, then, institute some type of mandatory type of birth control implant for teenage girls, if that is the largest percent of woman having abortions?
I bet the very same people who claim they are not for abortion but are only pro-choice, would say its unconstitutional and a violation of one's civil liberties. And I bet the religious would say that only encourages our kids to have sex, and we want them to abstain.
So you see, nobody wants kids having kids, and pretty much nobody wants abortion.
But who will committ to a some type of govt regulated solution?
posted on October 14, 2005 06:27:00 PM new
LoL Fenix!
That's a good point, Double. Same with serial rapists. They should have anti-testosterone implants to help curb their sickness but everyone screams it's a human violation, which I understand too. But what can you do when the world keeps producing nimrods? The 20 billion laws on the books aren't for smart people.
posted on October 15, 2005 03:50:37 AM new
Well kraft, from what I've read I dont think those type of drug implants would help too many with that problem, as its supposedly more a hatred/domination/control mental illness thing.
But you bring up a good point as well. I wonder if genetically, women with too much testosterone suffer that same illness, and we just call them prostitutes or butchies?
posted on October 15, 2005 12:12:47 PM new
Double, I heard the implants (for rapists) don't work that well either, but before they knew if they worked or not, they were crying human rights violation. This is where I have a problem - shouldn't a serial rapist lose all rights to his body once he uses it as a weapon?
A bit off topic Double, but a I watched Larry King a couple nights back and there was a 29 year old girl on that was addicted to plastic surgery. As I watched it, I thought about this lady with the 16 children and wondered if, in some way, she was addicted to having children. I noticed this lady was very anxious to talk about having another child, yet hardly mentioned her 15 other children or her new baby - only to say she was doing fine. I just found that odd.
posted on October 15, 2005 12:20:08 PM new
Maybe there truly is an addiction to having children! She should go on Dr. Phil.
I've heard, about rapists, that it isn't a sexual crime but a crime of violence and hate, and that even if you remove every body part they could physically rape someone with, that doesn't stop them from using other objects. Very sad. I agree they shouldn't be able to use their bodies to rape, but what can we do about other alternatives? Lock 'em up for life, I say.
posted on October 15, 2005 12:49:46 PM new
I saw that interview too, kraft. That woman so horribly mutilated herself. She wasnt the more beautiful for the surgury at all, imo.
As for this lady, I dont know, could be an addiction/obsession of some kind. It's certainly a very unusual desire, thats for sure. But did you see those kids and her household? They were all so well behaved and clean-cut! Everything seemed remarkably well-managed. I would never think about such a life, but I cant help but see how extremely well adjusted as a family they are! So who are we to judge it wrong?
And offtopic/but not really...What I wanted to tell fenix was that I read a study somewhere that said women who never carry pregnancies, are more prone to uterian/ovarian cancer, so at least it sounds like she did the smartest thing if knowing she never wanted to bear children.
.
[ edited by dblfugger9 on Oct 15, 2005 12:51 PM ]
posted on October 15, 2005 01:53:38 PM new
I saw that interview of the 29 year old girl that was addicted to plastic surgery also..........and her name was Michael Jackson.
posted on October 15, 2005 03:24:26 PM new
Dbl - I only asked for the Hysterectomy - no one gave me one. Meanies!!
On the topic of thei mom of 16. I don't think it's a stretch to wonder if she is addicted to pregnancies. Ever hear an interview with the kids? She's not raising her kids, her other kids are. Child A looks after child E, child B looks after child F, C looks after G, etc.
Before this child was ever born they already knew who would taking care of it, and it's not mom.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
posted on October 15, 2005 04:53:49 PM new
fenix! I did think you were serious! You always sound so sure you wont have children in your posts, figured at 18 you didnt have to ask anybody, and went right on ahead and fixed yerself up.
kraft, have you seen that movie Amelie? If not, watch it. I think you would enjoy that one!
I did see them interview some of the older kids. They said they get their time of privacy and they also (guess they schedule it or something)-"get alone time with momma" (how the eldest girl put it.) I really cant find any fault with them at all. They're happy, they're making their own way...who cares? Power to em.
When I was growing up I had friends who came from families of 8, 11, or 12. Some of the kids got messed up; others turned out really well. They liked being part of a big family; thats what they knew.
posted on October 15, 2005 05:55:03 PM new
Dbl - I should have asked on my 17th birthday. As of my 18th I no longer had insurance. The other problem is that I don't think many Drs would perform an elective hysterectomy on an 18 year old. No one would believe me at 18 that I never wanted to have children... hell, most still do the "Well, you never know..." thing even now.
~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
An intelligent deaf-mute is better than an ignorant person who can speak.
posted on October 15, 2005 06:19:21 PM new probably for the best anyway...your skin would dry up and stuff, especially that early on - and then you'd probably be SOOO logical nobody could stand you!! (kidding...)
I did think you were serious! You always sound so sure you wont have children in your posts, figured at 18 you didnt have to ask anybody, and went right on ahead and fixed yerself up.