posted on November 4, 2000 09:01:29 PM
When my father was on his death bed he held an auction for the surviving members of the family. We found this preferrable over using eBay saving us the FVF and listing fees. Much nicer than having the problems you seem to be facing. Our only problem was the nurse and nurse's aid seemed to have run some items up to unrealistic levels. I'm still a bit irked that the pocket watch that had been in the family for 120 years was won by the nurse's aid. Such is life I guess.
I'm not sure which is worse having members of the hospital staff bidding on my father's death bed auction or the drama of being hounded by the eBay detectives when doing such an auction online.
posted on November 5, 2000 03:45:47 AM
I do not think the "family" bidding rule at eBay is well thought out. I think it would be an interesting civil case if they suspended a non-collusive seller for his cousin bidding on his/her item. But how do they know who is related ? I didn't list a family tree when I registered- perhaps in the future this will be required ? How about if your next door neighbor bids ? With Internet communications what they are, a seller with a determined notion to have shills can get on ICQ or other systems and find all the non-related shills he/she might need. Or how about a seller being on a college campus ? Plenty of non-related shills there, and plenty of different PCs too.
eBay's "true market value" rationale for punishing shill bidding is dubious. The value of something is what someone is willing to pay, so even if the item is shilled, the legitimate bidder is still paying what he/she thinks the item is worth to them, whether the legitimate bidder wins or loses.
I have no control over my relatives, and little control over the people in my household !!! Non-collusive bidding by family members should be OK, but it is clear that eBay nor anyone can readily determin if collusion is going on, so they make this a blanket rule.
However, eBay gives away their method of "detecting" shill bids by also stating that bids can not come from the seller's PC. It would seem that using a different PC with different cookies etc., thwarts the system - at least for those who do not know how to jam, refuse, or delete cookies. The upstart of Internet "kiosks" is going to be an interesting challenge to the whole auction system also. I'll bet that kiosks will be denied access to many auction sites.
I think the "family" rule is impossible to enforce due to the inability to detect it, and if the original post is true, it is the first case I ever heard of being detected.
The best prevention of shill bidding is for legitimate bidders to be rational and do a little research about the item before bidding, set your bid limit and don't go over it.
As I've said in my posts before- ' We don't know who the best liars [or shills] are, as we only catch the amateurs'.
posted on November 5, 2000 03:48:34 AM
This is vigilanteeism, plain and simple. The EDA will do far more harm than good. It is a whacko-magnet.
The whole thing smacks of jackboots and late-night "interrogations." You have an anonymous group of disgruntled users with no accountability, and access to anyone's personal details. There is nowhere for this to go but down.
Can you imagine a family dividing up their estate online and paying someone fees? If you believe this cock and bull story you need to step away from the computer, look into a mirror and scold yourself for falling for this.
posted on November 5, 2000 04:56:56 AM
Ray, if what Shendra says is true, it is not shilling and is not wrong. Although it was a technical (and accidental) violation of eBay's rules, it was clearly NOT shilling. Your comment is a perfect example of what IS WRONG with the "Bebay Detective Agency."
(And by the way, ripping of eBay's name doesn't exactly put you on the moral high ground.)
posted on November 5, 2000 05:02:09 AM
After reading the vigilante posts in the "eAuction Agency", I can see this sort of thing happening. As we all know, ebay does not always take action, and it can be frustrating to the Detectives.
I travel extensively, and I regularly check my e-mail and send messages at the kiosks.
I pay $10 cash, no ID, no credit card. Total anonymity.
posted on November 5, 2000 05:19:22 AM
SecretAgentWoman (Larissa)
There is NO WAY I am going to disclose private information to you. For all I know, it was you that sent me the threat.
In any case, if you have nothing to hide, I expect to see the password for this board in this forum.
I have already contacted EZBOARD and sent them the threat, and all they have on you is your e-mail address. Changing your board name will not protect your vigilante's.
Rest assured, my family is very upset, and we are going to pursue this matter to the fullest extent of the law.
So, Larissa, where is the password?
What are you hiding?
I guarantee that you will be hearing from a real-life law enforcement official tomorrow.
"Ray, if what Shendra says is true, it is not shilling and is not wrong"
Hello?
You are suggesting that I can post an ebay auction and my wife can bid on the item?
Bidding by the owner and family members is legal in most States, but it is against the ebay rules.
I beleive that the eBay Detective Agency has an entire forum titled "Selling Violations" just for their Detectives to investigate this type of behavior.
posted on November 5, 2000 06:26:36 AM
The eBay detective agency is a joke. I think it may be made up of adults that still play with super hero toys and are frustrated that the local police force turned down their application due to failing the civil service exam and/or failing the mental exam.
These are the type of people that buy used police vehicles, scanners, and hope that someday the authorities will realize that they are true crime fighters. They're Barney Fifes one and all.
But if they continue to send threatening emails, they may finally find themselves involved with the law - albeit on the wrong end of it.
posted on November 5, 2000 06:32:24 AM
Here is where the real problem with your online auction lies...
You and your siblings outbid real bidders on these items, then grandma and grandpa say: "Oh thats too much, just give us $10 for the lamp. I think that a fair price"
There is no control over the post-auction process to guarantee that the items are paid for in full based on the bid amount. This would make every bid placed, a shill bid.
At least in a real life auction, the auction house will guarantee that the funds change hands. (even though they may be returned after the sale)
Shillers should be reported to Safe Harbor. There is no need for the bs contained in the email sent. They do respond, and very quickly if you have all the info ready for them. Here is a clip from an email I received from them a few hours after reporting a shill bidder:
[i] Thank you for taking the time to contact us with this information. I
have reviewed the information that you have provided and wanted to let
you know that I have suspended the member that you alerted us to. [/i]
If you want to sell stuff to your relatives...don't do it on EBay. We do not want to bid in an auction that already has a winner before it starts.
What you did was against eBay rule, but it was not a crime.
I agree with kitch1, and I think you would get more satisfaction pursuing Civil litigation rather than criminal. The bottom line that that there is no way to tie the anonymous e-mail to the eBay Detective Agency.
However, you have a strong Civil case against Larissa.
She was solely responsible for the creation of a self-appointed Detective Agency whose sole purpose was to investigate eBay violations.
All you need to get a judgment is show that you suffered extreme emotional distress and that Larissa opened a private Detective Agency that encouraged vigilante’s to pursue eBay wrongdoing.
I could see a sympathetic jury awarding a huge judgment for your distress and as well as punitive damages against Larissa. Do will not need to prove that she was aware of the threatening e-mail; only that she encouraged eBay Detective activities.
Here is how I would proceed:
1 – Ask the detective to contact home.com and get Larissa’s full-name and address.
2 – Get all of the archives from ezboard to document the activities of Larissa’s agency, it prior name, and Larissa’s role in keeping it active. They will fully cooperate with the detective.
3 – Document your distress and document the purchase of the gun.
4 – Find a good Attorney and proceed with a Civil Suit.
5 – Notify the media, at the national level. Self-appointed Internet vigilante’s are a hot topic right now.
posted on November 5, 2000 07:03:17 AM
[quote]5 – Notify the media, at the national level. Self-appointed Internet vigilante’s are a hot topic right now.[/quote]
posted on November 5, 2000 07:07:38 AM
There is no control that the full price was paid in the post auction process now ! I run NPB at 20% on my Dutch Auctions and don't even bother turning them in or leaving neg FB, or getting a refund. I just re-sell. It is not worth the neg FB, time and effort to pursue them. Besides, if suspended, they can be right back on in minutes under another identity- if they don't have several IDs already. I know people with up to 8 PCs in there home all with different IP addresses.
If you lose the bidding competition, what difference does it make to the losing bidder what the winner paid ? After the auction, the winning bidder may have even traded some other item for the item they won. I've even accepted trades instead of money on winning auctions.
While bidding by relatives is forbidden by eBay's TOS, without collusion, there is nothing inheirently wrong with relatives bidding.
Unless you know about the item you're bidding on and have done your homework, there is no protection or control of shill bidding, unless it is done by amateurs that can't adequately hide their machinations.
posted on November 5, 2000 09:43:19 AM
"The eAuction Detective Agency works hard to catch and report...violations... and bring the violators to justice." - If I recall my history correctly, the KKK was founded on this premise, and look what they turned into...
Also, is eBay prepared to resort to DNA testing to validate who is a family member and who isn't?
As far as EDA, vigilantes are never very trust-worthy in themselves. Keep an eye on this org.
No estate, no email, no threat. No damage. No suit.
Anyone who has been around for a while should be able to recognize these sorts of threads for what they are, and give them the credibility they deserve.
posted on November 5, 2000 10:05:25 AM
"You will probably be suspended by ebay for this offense"
You're kidding, right?
The other day, while searching for junk Polaroid One Shot cameras (sorry for redundancy) -- which tend to go cheap cheap cheap -- I stumbled upon an appliance dealer with one that had been bid up from one cent to about ten bucks.
The fanatic bidding happened staccato fashion by a handful of 0 and 1 feedback users.
Then I looked at some of his other auctions. What I found was that many if not most of his auctions started the same way -- low opening bid, no reserve, a rotating gang of no-to-low-feedback users (same names over and over) bidding the price up at the start.
I then looked at some of their closed auctions, and found that the same people would be the last bidder on items that seemed to be selling for significantly less than their value.
OK, so far we have a group of people who 1) are willing to pay a multiple of the value of *some* items, and 2) yet manage to buy *other* items at a fraction of their value.
Over and over again.
From the same seller.
So then I looked at the addresses.
Golly. Email addresses that belong to the owner's domain. Last name same as owner's last name (as determined by InterNIC Whois lookup for store's entry).
So I show it to eBay.
The response?
The usual "we don't see anything wrong here" boilerplate.
PS: I have no connection with the vigilante group mentioned in this thread. I have no INTEREST in having anything to do with them.
PPS: Why was it that I stumbled onto the seller's listings? I buy classic cameras (Nikon, Pentax, Yashicamat, etc.) from the "golden age" (approx. 1960-1975) of manual mechanical cameras made of metal and glass. I restore them. And I'll shortly be selling them on eBay.
One common problem with older TLRs is degradation of the silvering on the front surface mirror behind the viewing lens. People in the restoration business discovered that the easiest way to find replacement mirrors is to buy junk One Steps and cannibalize them for the large front surface mirror they have behind the lens. (Due to Polaroid's method of image formation -- on side of film exposed to lens -- it's necessary to *expose* it through a mirror to reverse it in order to *prevent* having the image appear reversed when viewing it after development.)
PPPS: I guess I've come to the conclusion that people who can't cut the grade at burger flipper "U" have found welcome arms at Boilerplate Central.
posted on November 5, 2000 10:08:49 AMReamond: I think the "family" rule is impossible to enforce due to the inability to detect it, and if the original post is true, it is the first case I ever heard of being detected.
A little over a year ago, a couple of the people who were active posters on AuctionWatch stumbled across a case of apparent shill bidding. The seller was invited here and said that her mother had died and she had put the items up for auction and the family members were then bidding on them. eBay ultimately NARU'd all the accounts, reinstating the seller's account eventually with a stern warning. The case was briefly mentioned in an article in a national newspaper. Within a few months, eBay had added the "family members cannot bid" sentences in two places in its policies.
I'm quite sure eBay didn't add that statement due to only one case of 'family members bidding.'
Personally, I'm of the opinion - as are several other long-time posters in this thread - that this is an attempt at "deja vu" about that original situation, with an added twist.
posted on November 5, 2000 12:14:59 PM
I don't know if the initial post is true or not. I am more concerned with the revelations about the "eBay Detective Agency." On one hand, we have statements from the owner of the board that its purpose is to provide information so users can recognize shilling. Then this statement by an active member: "What you did is reprehensible.... The eAuction Detective Agency works hard to catch and report selling violations like yours, and bring the violators to justice."
Last week there was a thread here suggesting buyers should band together and sabotage auctions of certain sellers. The poster openly advocated his own brand of "frontier justice." While I agree with the stated goals of the EDA, I think there is a great potential for harm. Members of the EDA have already admitted, unrelated to this particular case, that there were problems with "overzealous" members. This is just the type of organization that attracts vigilantees.
Whether or not this particular story is true, it does bring to light the real and potential problems associated with an anonymous group with no accountability, pretending to be a watchdog under the auspices of eBay. There is a world of difference between an "eAuction Information Agency" posting about how to recognize a shill, and the vigilantees of the eBay Detective Agency. If the story ends with possible violators being reported to eBay, that's fine. If vigilantees band together to threaten sellers or sabotage auctions, they should be prosecuted or pursued in civil court.
posted on November 5, 2000 12:24:03 PM
twinsoft: If you will go over to the eBay Trust & Safety Messageboard, and start reading OLD messagethreads over there, as I did early last month, you will find 1,000s of posts, day after day, week after week about the so-called "powershillers", the so-called *ADVICE* the "ONLY way to avoid being shilled at eBayis to NEVER place any bid on an eBay auction" and a constant barrage that eBay is UNSAFE and filled with criminal fraudulent sellers.
I read WEEKS of old archived posts which looked to me like one big advertisement to be SCARED of eBay and to LEAVE EBAY.
I am APPALLED that eBay has allowed their RemarQ Messageboards to apparently be overrun with posters who IMO are constantly spreading fear & terror about how UNSAFE eBay is.
posted on November 5, 2000 12:40:22 PM
Situational Role Playing - though the premise this thread is based on definitely has all th hallmarks of a troll post - it still raises valuable issues that deserve discussion and thought.
posted on November 5, 2000 12:42:24 PM
Personally, I don't think I seriously buy anyone settling an estate in this manor - BUT if in one's wildest imagination it is true, THEN regarding the letter, if you believe that letter came from eBay, then I have some wonderful ocean front property in Oklahoma I'd like to sell you.
