posted on November 6, 2000 01:50:34 PM
Lots of folks asked for the password, and I sent it to everyone. The attacks continued at T&S and at the Detective board. One of the moderators used his moderator powers to ban me from the board. I still had not flamed anyone or done anything except ask questions and voiced my opinion.
That moderator was banned from the board for abuse of his moderator powers and for excessive flaming. He started his own board, first called the 'Online Militia', and then later changed to the 'Happy Holidays Board'.
He attacked both me and Secret Agent Woman and others, along with a number of his followers.
Today, the attacks continue. My ebaY info has been requested by one of them, and abuse of ebaY rules itself. I have been slandered all over the T&S, as have Secret Agent Woman, Radh, and others.
Secret Agent Woman has stated that a former ID that was NARU'd when she had a medical condition and was not able to fill her customer's orders. She has stated that all her customers were taken care of as soon as she was able to do so. She did not get letters from each of them stating that and submit them to ebaY, and that is why her other ID was NARU'd. She has stated that she is now in the process of pulling together those statements from her customers for reinstatement.
The Detective board is reorganizing and regrouping and putting some new process in place. It is my hope that they will choose to focus on education and resources for users instead of pseudo police work.
The personal attacks and disinformation campaign is scary. The tactic is to post any sort of accusation and put the burden of proof on the accused. The accusations are hurled in numerous threads and by numerous people. If they are proven to be false, others quickly begin.
This is the tactic of the 'Happy Holiday' people. They are indeed dangerous, IMO.
Edited to change 'new id' to 'other id' as Secret Agent Woman's id is not new
posted on November 6, 2000 02:04:43 PM
The new rules at the Detective board are that everyone has to go through Secret Agent Woman to get in, no more giving out of passwords. I'm still getting requests for passwords, but I've agreed not to give it out and abide by the rules.
Secret Agent Woman serves a function on that board similar to the moderators here.
posted on November 6, 2000 02:45:37 PM
If you still have this email forward it to ebay safeharbor and mention what has happened. It sounds like you have a bunch of cranks, pranksters, and or net vigilantes that are looking for trouble. The frustrated netcops who have nothing better to do. I've had to deal with spammers using "ebay" in their spam address and ebay doesn't take kindly to it. These folks are going to get their rear ends slapped with a lawsuit the way they're headed, methinks.
posted on November 6, 2000 02:55:31 PM
toyranch~ could you or sectret agent woman email me the site and password. I have some detecting I need done on a little weasel rip off seller.
[email protected]
posted on November 6, 2000 02:57:07 PM
collegepark~ I know from personal experience that safeharbor will not lift one finger to help unless toyranch has been threatened with physical bodily harm. Safeharbor is an oxymoron.
posted on November 6, 2000 04:12:53 PM
So, let me see.... The leader of the EDA was suspended from eBay for non-performance, then NARU'ed again for creating a bogus account while under suspension. Then the earlier comment by RayGomez that holding an auction for family members is "reprehensible ... we will bring you to justice, blah blah." Irony, anyone?
I don't wish to condemn an organization out of hand, or any group of individuals. No doubt there are users with legitimate concerns among the "eBay Detective Agency." But based on firsthand reports, it sounds like a few good apples in a barrelful of rotten ones. The "shut up or else" comment made earlier, in broad daylight on a public board, further reinforces my opinion. Whether or not *that* comment was intended as a threat, it was a warning and demonstrates what might happen to anyone who crosses the EDA.
Nor do I buy the distinction between the EDA and the Online Miliia/Happy Holiday camp. The EDA is responsible for the creation of Happy Holiday. Despite the EDA's political posturing, there is a straight line from one group to the other.
The EDA is a secret society -- password protected web site, phony user IDs -- where the board owner says she knows nothing about shilling -- she is only an "administrator." Yeah, right. The EDA is operating behind layer upon layer of secrecy and that does not increase their credibility with me.
How many times have we seen an eBay member NARU'ed, then come back on a campaign of their own to turn in other ne'er do wells? Or to cause harm to eBay by damaging other sellers? How many times have we seen auctions cancelled, and the seller responds by turning in every other instance of similar auctions? Can it be true that the purpose of EDA is not to protect bidders but to cause harm to eBay? If so, they have achieved their goal via the inflammatory MSNBC article.
I would suggest that if the EDA truly wishes to achieve its goals, they should stop hiding and spreading misinformation. MSNBC accurately pointed out that shilling is not the big problem. The big problem is non-delivery (or perhaps more accurately, late delivery, eh Larissa?) of goods.
BTW, I get 20-30 deadbeats a week. I'd love a watchdog group that would go after the hundreds of non-paying customers I've accumulated. Or the many other customers who commit mail fraud by claiming the package never arrived. How about it, EDA?
posted on November 6, 2000 04:20:00 PM
ToyRanch's comments are accurate.
The email qouted by the thread originator does not exist- it's just a continuation of a smear campaign being waged by an angry and spiteful individual.
posted on November 6, 2000 04:39:22 PM
Shendra--don't even try to understand half of the things...most of it is old history....but was probably brought up because of family involvement in bidding.
You don't have an email up--so why don't you click on either Toyranch or SecretAgentWoman's name and email them directly---they might have some answers--that don't have to be publically broadcast on a thread
posted on November 6, 2000 05:09:51 PM
YEAH RIGHT! LOL That's great! The perfect solution. Go buy a gun! Shesh! is it any wonder that most gun related deaths happen within the home!?! When people who shouldn't ever hold a gun buy one for "protection". Great. Listen, if this is even the least bit true, and I don't really think it is, then the guy is probably some looser who won't even leave his computer or the house. Relax, don't worry, and properly lock up that gun before someone shoots the dog or worse yet a neighbourhood kid while "protecting" the family!
posted on November 6, 2000 05:10:54 PM
Shendra
It is such that the EDA, does not condone such behavior. The e-mail that you received as far as folks can see is non traceable. It is possible to get your e-mail from eBay without pulling your contact information. I do not know if eBay has records of who pulls the e-mail or not. I think they might. Contact safe harbor at eBay and ask them if they do. It might be to your benefit to have law enforcement do such. Ask eBay for any records about you. Note this may or may not take a court order, I do not know. The e-mail saying it is from the detective agency does not mean that it is. From the statement you placed on the board, you are in violation of eBay rules. I do not know if your account is active or not, or being investigated or not. These folks do not know you, nor do I. There has been a lot of trouble towards the EDA. It has caused a split. This is why some if not most question if the statements made here are real or not. You have done what you should do contact law enforcement. If you receive any more threats, or emails of such give it to them. If e-mail is sent that is traceable then forward it to safe harbor at eBay with the headers turned on full.
I give this advice as I would if I believed this. I have my doubts. I always try to do this in case I am wrong.
The headers would really be helpful! In case you don't know how
to copy headers, just right click on the message...go to properties
and select details...then copy.
Edited to add a smiley face to keep the moderator happy!
posted on November 6, 2000 07:35:13 PM
"Whether or not *that* comment was
intended as a threat, it was a warning and demonstrates what might happen to anyone who crosses the EDA."
No--not who crosses the EDA. Just someone who catches the eye of any cyberspace lunatic with stalking skills. Been there, had it happen to me. I was cautioning her BECAUSE I like her. Because she's a good person, with intelligence and wit and compassion. Because she doesn't deserve the kind of grief an anonymous lunatic with an obsessive grudge can cause her if he so desires.
posted on November 7, 2000 02:07:46 AM
The fact is that if this email was sent or not sent, the intent is to discredit the eAuction Detective Agency. I have been saying this since I was a moderator there. I knew someone was up to no good, and I tried to handle it--to no avail. I am the "23 year old" who was banned and who started another board. Let me carify in as little space as possible. I have been posting on Ebay's T&S for over a year and have EARNED much respect there. I had about 20-25 people that I posted with regularly, they became my friends, and were alot of help in uncovering fraud and helping new users with problems (I helped BUYERS and SELLERS, not just one) When ebay changed their board policy to disallow item #'s and user ID's, many of us thought we should take our shill detective work to another board. Segret agent woman's board seemed the best choice at the time. A handfull of us (the REGULARS on ebay's T & S) were interviewed by MSNBC, and we were dubbed the "shill detectives". Within a week I and a few other members were alerted to segret agent woman's ID's. Some were suspended, some were not. The one that was suspended was suspended for fraud. When I confronted her on this--she failed to respond. At the same time, the registry went from 60 users to 170--and many were asking "who are these people?" It was clear the password was being publicized everywhere and a few "questionable" users popped up--doing MORE than asking questions--they stated "we will destroy the EDA", and basically the site was doomed. Out of frustration I again confronted secret agent woman about her ebay ID and her allowing certain memebers in who seemed to want the EDA gone, and who were HARASSING people for investigating shills. She BANNED me, and began a smear campaign to end all smear campaigns. The REAL shill detectives (the ones who were with ebay for a VERY long time) have all moved to my board and been BANNED from the EDA. Since that time, users onm the EDA have had their contact info pulled, auctions interfered with, and been harassed. It is my contention as it was from the start that the people doing it are the same people I raised eyebrows to when they first appeared on the EDA. I, along with the others on my board have been in contact with MSNBC, asking for a follow-up article or at least a few retractions--it was NEVER our (the people on my board) policy to be vigilantes--we only want to help people and see the GUILTY get NARU. Nobody flames on my board, nobody discredits, points fingers or "plots" against anyone. Every honest user that I have talked too is horrified by what's happening on the EDA, and as long as the people in control are still running it--it will only get worse. LIES, PARANOIA, and SMEARS, that's what you will find there. The real shill detectives just want to be left alone, images UNtarnished, to do what we can in our spare time to help users who have been scammed. This is nothing less than a noble effort--and we question secret agent woman, magazine guy, and the others who are so easy to start a board war--claiming that I am behind all this. That is a sick lie and they know it. They know me from ebay--I've been nothing but upstanding and helpful in every way for over a year--and some of them are quite jealous. I feel sorry for what's happened, I feel even worse for the innocent people who have been drawn to the EDA under the false assumption that the creator of the board is "depressed" (her excuse for fraud), and that their information (ebay-related) is SAFE--it is NOT. This is a warning, if you want to post there fine--just don't go trusting your ebay info with ANYONE, as the person causing this trouble is still at-large. Anyone who wishes a more personalized or in-depth clarification can email me at [email protected], I would appreciate it if the suggestions that I am responsible for this by the people who are watching thier board fall apart in shreds please stop. You claim you don't like "false accusations" so lets practice what we preach.
posted on November 7, 2000 07:12:11 AM
O.K. here's what I saw from the rafters over at the EDA shortly after Toyranch went into forums and started asking questions. I didn't read everything, I just jumped around a little trying to get a feel for what was happening there. I only lurked over there for about an hour over a couple of day's time.
From what I saw, Toyranch's account of what happened is accurate. Toyranch was asking pointed questions that touched on how this group was organized, what rules and guidelines were being followed, what safeguards were in effect. There were some pretty defensive detectives over there and they weren't happy with Toyranch.
As I said earlier, my impression was that the majority of the posters there were honestly trying to help get rid of bad guys. Unfortunately, there were a few "zealous" (understatement) individuals who really didn't like the questions Toyranch was asking. At one point, someone with moderator powers was running around deleting posts. Secret agent woman stepped in pretty quickly and removed the rogue moderator.
I think largely as a result of Toyranch's questions, some of the detectives started questioning what they were doing. Some posted exit manifestos and left. Some went and formed the other group. I saw some others posting there, trying to help. Magazine guy , from what I saw, did nothing but offer some good ideas and suggestions in a very straightforward and professional manner. There were others also contributing some very worthwhile ideas.
As long as eBay continues to struggle with the issue of policing their 14 million-member site, and I don't see any simple solutions, there will be volunteer detectives on the job. They'll either do it out in the open or they'll do it underground, but they will be here.
posted on November 7, 2000 07:17:48 AM
Earlier in this thread rnrgroup said:
"Situational Role Playing - though the premise this thread is based on definitely has all th(e) hallmarks of a troll post - it still raises valuable issues that deserve discussion and thought."
Excellent point, Rosalinda! I've investigated, listened to the discussion, and given the issues thought.
Was the original post on this thread an attempt to discredit the EDA(and by whom?) or was it an attempt to bring more publicity?
basestealer1, I have read the archived threads at the EDA, and my view of what happened there was a classic case of the "divide and conquer" tactic. And the "divide" part was successful.
What has been accomplished by that? Let's see:
A core group of the EDA, those who appear to be the most impassioned in the original groups main "cause", have left and formed their own board. I can only assume that this group is continuing to "investigate" as they did in the EDA, before the rift happened. These people haven't been stopped in their efforts. Moreover, why should they be? Does this group have any less right to seek out infractions and report them to eBay Safeharbor than the rest of us?
So, there has been little accomplished, other than bring about a huge amount of dialog and publicity, which can be argued as being either harmful or helpful to the on-line auction community, depending on your point of view.
Now there are TWO boards instead of one, granted one's focus may be different from the other.
Much has been said about the public versus private aspects of these type groups and their message boards.
If a board is public, then they are criticized because information about "innocent" users is posted there. Shilling and other TOS violations are not always a black and white issue. And it's true that some information posted in that manner might be harmful to an innocent person.
But, then if a board is private, statements are made that "they" MUST have something to hide...and the detractors have a field day playing on the "people's fear of the unknown"!
Seriously, folks, do you REALLY think you have a right to know what is going on on these boards? If you do, then you must also believe that you have THE RIGHT to know what goes on in strategy meetings of the Democratic and Republican National Committees, the Board Room at eBay, and every bedroom in the community.
These "investigators" have their right to privacy, too.
Toy Ranch, were all the meetings, phone calls, e-mails, etc. regarding The Million Auction March a matter of PUBLIC record where EVERYONE could see them? I doubt it...and they shouldn't be. Oh, yes, I forgot...that was a much more "noble" cause...
Folks, these "super net-cops" (the posse who wants to police the posse) try to make you believe that there is a real threat here, using emotion evoking words like "vigilante".
But what "power" do these "vigilantes" really have? They cannot NARU a user. They can only gather evidence and submit it to eBay. eBay has the power! It's apparent that eBay is not trusted to make the "right" decisions, by ALL sides here. Why?
Our jails do contain a small percentage of people who are unjustly convicted because the judicial system is not perfect. eBay's system is not perfect either. But I'm willing to let eBay be my "judge and jury" should anyone submit evidence of any wrongdoing on my part. I am confident in my ability to present a defense. I have nothing to fear from these "investigators", only from eBay, and their ability to make a fair decision. Am I wrong in putting my trust in eBay here?
George
It's easy to "knock" a program....a lot harder to come up with a BETTER solution.
posted on November 7, 2000 09:00:05 AMGeorge, I think you have far more trust in eBay's judicial system than I do. The major problem, IMO, is the fact that IF you have a chance to defend yourself, it's after the fact and the damage to your reputation and/or seller ID has already been done.
I have strongly been advocating a need for a Review Board composed of our peers to look at BOTH sides of the evidence and give the accused a serious chance to defend themselves. I don't think the accused has that chance under eBay's present system.
I am thankful for the OAUA because they have been instrumental in helping some folks who were unjustly NARU'd but they have other concerns as well and limited resources and cannot help everyone. If just one person is wrongly accused of being involved with an illegal activity, that's one too many and an indication that the present system isn't working.
posted on November 7, 2000 09:50:05 AMbhearsch said:
"If just one person is wrongly accused of being involved with an illegal activity, that's one too many and an indication that the present system isn't working."
Blanche, I disagree! It doesn't mean the system isn't working, only that it is not perfect.
George
It's easy to "knock" a program....a lot harder to come up with a BETTER solution.
[ edited by gawooley on Nov 7, 2000 09:51 AM ]
posted on November 7, 2000 09:53:26 AM
The issue is not a question of black or white. That is like saying if we cannot have perfect justice, we want no justice at all.
I wills ay, however, that zeal should never outweigh common sense.
posted on November 7, 2000 10:00:27 AMGeorge, I AIM for perfection and I sincerely hope I don't wake up one morning to discover that I'm one of the innocents caught in an imperfect system.
Blanche
[ edited by bhearsch on Nov 7, 2000 10:02 AM ]
"The 'shut up or else' comment made earlier,in broad daylight on a public board,further reinforces my opinion. Whether or not*that* comment was intended as a threat, itwas a warning and demonstrates what mighthappen to anyone who crosses the EDA."
Twinsolf, thanks, but truly it is NOT the EDA, that is crossed -- IMO, the people who threaten to BASH YOUR TEETH IN, if you do not obey them and shut up --- IMO, those individuals want it to look like they are bored warez teens -- I don't for a second believe that alla the NASTY propaganda they spread on the T&S Board stemmed from the *typical* eBay User. I do NOT believe that typical eBay users refer to eBay Powersellers as powershillers and I also do NOT believe that *typical* eBay Users would let this statement be posted for at least weeks at the T&S Board, that, "...the only way to avoid being shilled ateBay is to NEVER bid on any eBay auction."
THAT is a LIE.
THAT is a DANGEROUS LIE.
THAT LIE IS MEANT TO BE READ BY USERS COMING TO THE T&S BOARD FOR HELP, AND CONSEQUENTLY BECOME SCARED OF ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL EBAY SELLERS.
Comparing MAM to investigating the ebaY buying and selling activities of other users is a very apples to oranges comparison. That said, most of the discussion about MAM DID take place in public forums. There were no private forums, ever. And while there were some phone calls, most of that, certainly anything meaningful, was discussed publicly. Meetings with auction sites were reported. Yes, that was a very public endeavor and it was conducted with as much 'transparency' as possible. There was certainly never a desire to hide any aspect of it. Again though, it's apples to oranges.
So you read all the threads on the ebaY T&S board and in the EDA and on OTWA and here and everywhere else, and that is the conclusion you reached? OK, that's fine. We don't agree. Neither, it seems, do Magazine_Guy or RM. But hey, we can't all agree! The thing is though, you know that I am not in favor of private forum netcopping groups doing half-baked 'investigations' and tossing their questionable findings to the venues for a cursory review and action. You say I am building a 'case' against the groups, and I say it's just what they do to others! Now just as my views are known, so are your views as a supporter of this type of activity known. So is it really surprising that we have seen totally different things, while looking right at the same threads?
Go back to OTWA and read the recent posts in the EDA thread. You may find them enlightening, or maybe not.
isworeiwould and Blanche
I think the idea of a review board is a great one! That process can never be transparent in public, but a review board could be very helpful, especially in the event someone is wrongfully NARU'd. The 'review board' concept is one I've been promoting at EDA as well. If some of these things are reviewed with an eye toward showing the innocence of someone suspected of wrongdoing, it can really help cut down on false accusations in the first place.
posted on November 7, 2000 01:36:15 PM
"The Detective board is reorganizing and regrouping and putting some new process in place. It is my hope that they will choose to focus on education and resources for users instead of pseudo police work."
I hope so too. An ounce of prevention, you know. Much less painful than a pound of cure. And a ton of misunderstandings.
posted on November 7, 2000 03:09:41 PMToy Ranch, your personal battle with basestealer1 is of little interest to me.
I see validity coupled with absurdity coming out of the propaganda being put forth by both sides.
Once again, Toy Ranch, I ask what has been accomplished here?
All I see is a group going underground, probably continuing the very same practices that they engaged in before interest sparked all this publicity.
But the publicity has given eBay sellers, and the on-line auction industry, yet another "bloody nose".
Support this type activity? I tend to agree with RM that as long as these auction sites fail to provide adequate resources to effectively police their own site, and as long as they encourage "community" participation, there will always be "volunteer detectives" on the job.
The only way to change things is through the auction sites themselves, if changes are needed. Neomax is correct in his assertion that these "communities" are in reality "company towns". Not democracies, but dictatorships. The "community" can still produce changes, but those changes will come through convincing the "dictator" that a change will positively affect their "bottom line".
George
It's easy to "knock" a program....a lot harder to come up with a BETTER solution.
posted on November 7, 2000 03:38:31 PM
Shendra - You've got a seven page thread running here because you say your family started doing something on eBay that was against the rules of that venue and someone mistakenly thought you were shilling. I keep waiting for you to ask what "shilling" is.
Why don't you post those headers, darlin'. It's been twenty-four hours since that request was made. Do it! Otherwise, how can anyone believe you. A lot of people have tried to help you with this situation. Is the situation real?
