posted on November 13, 2000 08:32:46 PM new
I agree that eBay should not be busting your chops, but it is eBay's sandbox you are playing in.
Your business pricing needs to absorb your expenses. My flat shipping fees absorb non-eBay fees like PayPal as most of my stuff is under ten dollars. It's bad form to stick a bidder's nose in your biz costs. You will do far better restructuring to handle those costs than waving them at your bidders.
A lawsuit not run as a class action is pointless against a Goliath like eBay. It's too expensive and a waste of time. What's that definition of a lawsuit: where you go in like a pig and come out as a sausage.
posted on November 13, 2000 08:37:19 PM new
cassiescloset,
Don't start with the "It's illegal to have a CC surcharge in Californina..." stuff again.
We all know that, and that has nothing to do with this thread.
Fact: PayPal is not a CC company.
Fact: PayPal charges us 2% to move our money.
Fact: UPS charges $5 to move our money via COD.
Fact: UPS is not a CC company either.
Fact: I can require my winners to reimburse me for the $5 COD fee, if they choose COD as a way to pay me.
FICTION: I can require my winners to reimburse me for the PayPal 2% fee.
Why is the last point fiction? eBay has no written rule against it. If they can enforce unwritten rules, in effect, we have very strong grounds to ignore their written rules. See the problem, and the strong case that opens them to law suit?
posted on November 13, 2000 08:41:43 PM new
Another one...cripes....
Hey, mballai! Read the original post:
"Now, this is not a topic to discuss whether or not it is a smart business practice for me to charge the winners the 2% fee...so don't bother replying with that stuff."
But what do you then write?
"Your business pricing needs to absorb your expenses. My flat shipping fees absorb non-eBay fees like PayPal as most of my stuff is under ten dollars. It's bad form to stick a bidder's nose in your biz costs. You will do far better restructuring to handle those costs than waving them at your bidders."
posted on November 13, 2000 09:11:43 PM new
eventer,
There's a purpose for keeping a thread on focus. This board has no moderator...that's typically what they do. Without it, it usually left up to the original poster. That's me.
If a thread isn't kept on focus, and on the topic, we're all wasting our time.
It's plenty easy to start a whole new thread if people want to veer off onto a different subject.
posted on November 13, 2000 09:33:11 PM new
It seems to me...MHO that the originator of this thread does not want a discussion, but wants agreement with his stance. Now that could be for a couple of reasons. For sure he is angry for Ebay closing his auctions, and that would upset me as well....but Ebay is our storefront and even with all of the problems they have had, I have not had a bit of trouble with them as far as "functionality" since the last string of bad nights about 8-9 days ago. Another reason other then venting because he is p o'd, would be to try to garner others to join in a class action suit to strengthen the case thinking there is strength in numbers. Yes there is, but also there is strength in money and Meg and Pierre (sp?) have more then I could even count, thus they have more power then me and all of us put together because of that fact. Not to say money=smart...because I happen to know alot of stupid rich folks and alot of smart paupers. So do what you have to do, the best way you know how, and good luck to ya. I am happy though, with my home furnished with Early American Garage Sale!
posted on November 13, 2000 09:34:50 PM new
In your original post you stated that PayPal is not a credit card company, but then neither is Billpoint, and yet eBay clearly states the following on their Billpoint FAQ.
Can I charge the Billpoint fee to my buyer?
A seller may not charge the Billpoint fee for credit card payments "credit card surcharges" to the buyer for using Billpoint. Credit card association rules and many state laws prohibit charging
additional fees to buyers for use of credit cards.
For more information, please refer to "Credit Card Surcharges" on eBay's Listing Policies page in Safe Harbor.
I know didley about CC laws & regs, but I would imagine if someone accepts payment that involves a CC, then eBay has decided the above rule applies.
Sorry to hear your auctions got nuked, & good luck with your lawsuit, I have a sense you're going to need plenty of it.
edited to remove unwanted smiley
[ edited by reddeer on Nov 13, 2000 09:36 PM ]
posted on November 13, 2000 10:15:31 PM new
ff11...honey, I have a FIRM grip on reality
The reality is this....
Even though your argument that paypal is providing a money transfer service and their fees are for the transfer of money and you charging your customer to cover those fees are not a credit card surcharge has merit, when it come to ebay those arguments are worthless.
WHY? because on ebay, ebay gets to make the rules, interpet the rules, and enforce the rules. Ebay is the big cheese, head honcho..ebay is GOD when it comes to ebay. There is nothing illegal with ebay interpeting their rules however they want.
As another poster has pointed out to you, ebay DOES have rules against passing on credit card charges and ebay has decided that the paypal and billpoint fees fall under that rule. It doesn't matter what you think, ebay has every LEGAL right to make such a rule and then every LEGAL right to interpet that rule as they decide.
In other words...they win you lose. Your only choice is to either play it their way or go play in another playground.
posted on November 13, 2000 10:41:56 PM new"Your only choice is to either play it their way or go play in another playground. "
Don't forget that 3rd option. Fighting City Hall. If you're real lucky you'll find an attorney that will tell you to forget about it and save your time and money. If you aren't so lucky you'll find an attorney that will tell you that a wrong has to be righted.
posted on November 14, 2000 04:07:00 AM new
You can not make some people happy!
We are able to run a business from are homes and recieve a fair price for out items. Now you want to add a percentage on to the price.
Adding percentages and big handling charges will scare off bidders. Without bidders we are out of business.
I know Ebay is not perfect but it has made me a living for over 2 years.
posted on November 14, 2000 05:58:08 AM new
"Hire a lawyer and spend time and money in the chance you'll end up as David and eBay will play the role of Goliath."
posted on November 14, 2000 06:12:08 AM new
Hey, if you've got deep enough pockets, a law suit is like a bowl of chicken soup. What can it hoit? Throw in some croutons and take it to the supreme court why dontcha?
posted on November 14, 2000 07:54:05 AM new
ff11 - if you are able to garner some support for your 'lawsuit', do you think you can help me with mine? I would like to sue Pepsi Cola for using those stupid large pop tops on their canned drinks. Those things never open the way they are supposed to and are a definite hazard.
posted on November 14, 2000 09:35:43 AM new
Well good luck. While I would not put the 2% Paypal surcharge in my auctions, I feel that it is within your rights to do so. Of course there are better ways in which you could have done so which would not create much issues with buyers & eBay.
I guess with the volumes you sell, that small % of Paypal fees does add up.
posted on November 14, 2000 10:17:27 AM new
To: ff11
Forget about it !
Similar situation happen to our company on
last week. But it's NOT paypal.com, it's bidpay.com.
Under our payment Method TOS:
Pay with a Visa, Master Card and Discover Card online securely at www.bidpay.com. "Service charge may apply".
"Service charge may apply" is Money Order fee. Who can tell me where you don't need to pay some kind of service fee for the Money Order in US ?
When we try to email them, they NEVER reply.
All you can do is wait for the 24 HOurs to pass and "Nuker launch".
I dont know how my manger took care those problem. Why eBay don't spend more time on
how to anti-ebay fraud ?
I know so many ppl is using ebay to fraud, it's easy and quick cash. (All the bidder out there watch out, make sure you check seller selling history before bidding on some high cost item).
I'm waiting for a big fraud to come up on ebay and getting ready to report CNN.
posted on November 14, 2000 11:02:29 AM new"Service charge may apply" is Money Order fee. Who can tell me where you don't need to pay some kind of service fee for the Money Order in US?
Uh, the "service fee" for money orders you refer to is charged when the person purchases the money order, not when the payee cashes it - and my bank issues money orders for free. The only exception appears to be with certain international money orders, for which some banks do charge the payee a fee to cash. Are you implying that your bank charges you a fee whenever you deposit ANY money order? If that's the case, I suggest you find another bank.
posted on November 14, 2000 11:14:09 AM new
Amy, you wrote:
"WHY? because on ebay, ebay gets to make the rules, interpet the rules, and enforce the rules. Ebay is the big cheese, head honcho..ebay is GOD when it comes to ebay. There is nothing illegal with ebay interpeting their rules however they want."
I've been thinging long and hard about what you wrote. I can make my own rules in my backyard, right? I can make my own rules in my house, right? Is that the same? Seriously, after reading and thinking about what you wrote, am I really off base? I mean, can eBay make and interpret their own rules any way they wish?
Can they make a rule tomorrow, that people from Wisconsin now pay double the insertion fee? Is there nothing illegal about that if they chose to impose that? It is their playground, so can they do that?
What about if tomorrow they chose to make the rule "Sellers can no longer ship UPS. All shipments must go US mail." Can they do that? I mean, is there really no legal recourse against stuff like that, or is it truly, "Their house, their web site, their rules" ??
posted on November 14, 2000 11:34:33 AM new
maybe this will help....I was going to buy somthing from someone ...They were doing to charge me more for a money order ...And it said this in there auction...Ebay warned them and they had a choice to change there auctions...You more then likly were given the the choice to change yours..... Just like the man with the money order was ...And it was not a cedit card .....It was a money order...And he was charging more because his bank charged for money orders when he deposited them....Guess what the person charging more was me !!!!!......You can not pass it on...you include the charges !!!!CASE CLOSED.........no need to go to court
posted on November 14, 2000 11:43:03 AM new
TO: HartCottageQuilts and eastwest
You two misunderstand the line,
What we mean is When you go out to buy the
Money Order, they'll charge you for the service fee. Postal Office charge you $0.35 per MO under $500, 7-11 charge $1.00 per MO under $300...etc. You can check out www.bidpay.com. We just want people to beware the fee before they start to bid.
I were just browse the net for some killing deal, and this come across.
"* A flat $5.00 HANDLING FEE will be added to each order (not each item)."
Can you have that on eBay ?
posted on November 14, 2000 11:54:12 AM new
...That's a good idea ...do not include paypal in the comments on your ebay auction...just say there will be a 2% handling fee invloved in the closing bid for packaging.....and others .....leave others to mean paypal
posted on November 14, 2000 12:05:41 PM new
Ff11...yes you have the right to make the rules in your own home, as long as your rules aren't breaking a law in your community.
You could make a rule that no guest can smoke in your home or on your property. As long that rule did not break a governmental law then you are free to enforce it in your home. You could also make a rule of no drinking in your home...or no drinking of Coors beer and you could enforce it.
If you lived in a state that did not restrict smoking in public places and you ran a bread and breakfast in your home you would probably be able to enforce a no smoking policy on your paying guests.
But you could not, in your home, enforce a house rule that all female guests must sleep with you...if you did you would be prosecuted for rape as there are laws against this and what you would be doing would be seen as rape. (I'm assumming your a man ..also, as a note to other readers, this is just a very exagerated example!).
As for your "what ifs"..if ebay imposed a double listing fees on one group of people and not on everyone else and there was no provable reason for this (ie..it cost ebay more to service those auctions originating in WI and they can prove it), then I would say the people in WI have definate legal recourse..possibly discrimination, restraint of trade.
As for the what if rule about only shipping by UPS there is a possibility that could be illegal..but maybe not. Amazon's new marketplace says the books sold by the sellers will be sent bookrate and the seller can't upsell to a more expensive shipping method. There is nothing stopping the seller from raising his price to include the additional cost of priority mail, but he can't tack that fee on to the final price after the sale. (kind of like your situation).
Ebay's rule about these fees don't seem to be in violation of any law so they are free to make the rule and interpet it their way.
posted on November 14, 2000 12:13:47 PM new
To: Amy
Amy, I review all your post, it seem to me sometime you have very good point. What do you think of my idea ?
posted on November 14, 2000 12:15:56 PM new
I just know right now some lawyer has his or her eye on this thread and is thinking of "Class Action Lawsuit."
Back to the subject at hand...
Has anybody bothered to summon paypaldaemon(sp?) here to provide a little insight here? Seems we need him to clear a few points.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on November 14, 2000 12:22:12 PM new
ff11 ...
> I mean, can eBay make and interpret their own rules any way they wish?
Yes
> Can they make a rule tomorrow, that people from Wisconsin now pay double the insertion fee?
Yes
> Is there nothing illegal about that if they chose to impose that?
No
> It is their playground, so can they do that?
Yes
> What about if tomorrow they chose to make the rule "Sellers can no longer ship UPS. All shipments must go US mail." Can they do that?
Yes
I mean, is there really no legal recourse against stuff like that,
No
> or is it truly, "Their house, their web site, their rules" ??
Yes
Sorry ... I am not trying to be beligerent nor am I trying to demean your problem. But, the fact is eBay can do anything they want. They don't even have to be consistent with their rulings.
To sum up, "When in Rome ..."
If you don't like Rome, try somewhere else.
I mean, this is not a legal issue and if you continue with this, the only people who will benefit in the end will be the lawers. Time to get over it and move on
posted on November 14, 2000 12:31:45 PM new
Amy ... "But you could not, in your home, enforce a house rule that all female guests must sleep with you ..."
I wonder about this. Again, assuming that ff11 is male, if he posted a prominent and legible sign at the entrance to his home starting that "All females who enter this place must sleep with the Landlord", and if a female then decides to enter, and if she is of legal age, then what would make this illegal?
