posted on February 2, 2006 07:55:31 AM new
(2/02/06 - HOUSTON) - Andrea Yates was released from jail early Thursday and headed for a state mental hospital where she will await her second capital murder trial in the bathtub drowning deaths of her children.
Yates' attorney posted her $200,000 bond, releasing her from incarceration for the first time since the June 2001 deaths of her five children. State District Judge Belinda Hill set the bond Wednesday.
Yates was carrying a brown paper sack and wearing jeans, white sneakers and a blue-and-white striped shirt as she entered a car with her attorney and a private investigator headed for the hospital. Yates, 41, didn't say anything.
The judge said she couldn't order Yates to commit herself to the East Texas hospital, but said she set the bond amount based on Yates remaining at the hospital while she awaits her March 20 trial.
Once the trial gets under way, Yates will return to the Harris County Jail for the duration of the trial, which could last between four and six weeks.
Yates faces two capital murder charges for drowning deaths of three of the children. She has pleaded innocent by reason of insanity.
A jury rejected Yates original insanity defense in 2002 and sentenced her to life in prison for the drowning of three of her five children: 7-year-old Noah, 5-year-old John and the youngest, 6-month-old Mary. Evidence was presented about the drownings of Paul, 3, and Luke, 2, but Yates was not charged in their deaths.
An appeals court last year overturned those convictions based on the testimony by the state's expert witness about a nonexistent episode on television's "Law & Order" series. The expert, Park Dietz, said a show about a woman with postpartum depression who drowned her children aired shortly before Yates killed her five children.
"“More Iraqis think things are going well in Iraq than Americans do. I guess they don’t get the New York Times over there.”—Jay Leno".
posted on February 2, 2006 08:09:56 AM new
Maggie, I don't think she belongs in a hospital. Women have been birthing children of centuries and suffering PPD. How many of them have killed their kids.
I think PPD has become a too convent excuse in cases like this.
"“More Iraqis think things are going well in Iraq than Americans do. I guess they don’t get the New York Times over there.”—Jay Leno".
posted on February 2, 2006 08:42:34 AM new
This is a good description of Andrea Yates' mental illness and the problem that most people have understanding it.
2002
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THE ANDREA YATES VERDICT:
A Nation In Denial About Mental Illness
By SHERRY F. COLB
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Many people find it hard to believe that Andrea Yates was insane when she killed her children. Indeed, one cannot really blame them, because in judging Yates, they are simply drawing on widespread beliefs about insanity.
While understandable, this common perspective - shared by the Yates jury - does not accurately reflect the reality of Andrea Yates's mental state at the time of the killings. It underlines instead the dramatic chasm that divides public perceptions and myths about mental illness from what psychiatrists and other experts know to be its reality.
Why Yates Seemed Sane To Many
Why do people resist the conclusion that Andrea Yates may have been insane? The evidence seems to negate insanity in a number of ways.
First of all, Yates planned her actions carefully. She waited for the one hour when no other adults would be in the house. (Her husband had already left for work, and her mother-in-law had not yet arrived to babysit.) .
In addition, she seemed efficient and unrelenting in her actions. Rather than being overcome with emotion, she appeared strangely numb and under control - more like a merciless soldier than a distraught mother. She killed five, one after the other. And when her oldest son, Noah, resisted and fought for his life, Andrea overpowered him and would not let go. She forced him to die in the same tub water in which she had killed all four of his siblings - several of whom had vomited and defecated as they died.
Further, even after the terrible killings, Andrea was able to speak coherently, to sound rational, and to retain her composure. Immediately upon drowning her defenseless children, Andrea called the police and confessed. She was calm as she explained what she had done. And then, when the police arrived at her home, she continued to act unperturbed about the grotesque slaughter that she had only moments ago carried out. The police found the bodies lined up neatly, still wet, on Andrea's bed.
Moreover, Andrea Yates understood the nature of her actions. She did not mistakenly believe that she was washing the laundry or putting out a fire. She had in fact premeditated the deaths of her four young sons - Noah, John, Paul, and Luke - and her six-month-old daughter, Mary, before that fateful day. This left many among even those who are generally sympathetic toward those standing trial in criminal court skeptical. How could Andrea have been insane, they wondered, if she knew exactly what she was doing the whole time?
And finally, Andrea understood that society - including her husband, her mother-in-law, and the police - would disapprove of her actions. She knew, in other words, that she was committing a criminal act that would be condemned by all.
That was all she needed to qualify as sane. The test for insanity in Texas, quite similar to that in most states, is whether the defendant understood that what she was doing was wrong.
For all of these reasons, Andrea does not resemble the image many of us have of the truly insane. In the popular imagination, an "insane" person is disheveled, raving, and has no idea what she is doing. She is full of passion and rage and cannot respond to reason or think about her community's moral commitments.
An insane person accordingly, by the lights of many, does not coldly plan and premeditate killings of children and then calmly talk about what she has done. Such behavior is the mark of a rational, depraved and evil heart. A person who would perpetrate such acts in such a manner deserves to suffer punishment.
The defense accordingly faced substantial obstacles stemming from both law and social expectations when it attempted to convince the jury that Yates was not guilty by reason of insanity.
The Reality of Mental Illness: A Portrait From a Poe Story
The image of mental illness that dominates the popular imagination, however, is inaccurate. It ignores the reality of mental illness, even at its most serious and debilitating.
For a more accurate portrait of madness, consider the narrator in "The Telltale Heart," a short story by Edgar Allan Poe. The narrator stresses that he is not mad - indeed, could not possibly be mad, given how calmly and carefully he planned and carried out an unjustifiable killing of a man with a deformed eye.
Poe's narrator challenges the reader, "How, then, am I mad? Hearken! and observe how healthily - how calmly I can tell you the whole story." He later comments, "Madmen know nothing. But you should have seen me. You should have seen how wisely I proceeded - with what caution - with what foresight - with what dissimulation I went to work!"
It is hard to read these descriptions now and not think of Andrea Yates - her calm, her caution, and her foresight, and yet her utter madness.
Like Yates, Poe's narrator suffers from a psychotically distorted perception of the world. He "hears" the beating of a dead man's heart and boasts that, "I heard all things in the heaven and in the earth. I heard many things in hell." Yates claimed to have "heard" Satan's message that her children had to be killed if they were to be saved.
The reader of the Poe story can tell that the narrator, despite his protestations, is completely out of his mind. Under the Texas criminal law, of course, he might not have qualified for the defense - since he seems to have understood both what he was doing and that it was wrong.
Yates's Depression and Post-Partum Psychosis: When "Good People" Kill
Andrea Yates was (and is) a very sick person. No one in the case has disputed that. The delusions from which she suffered distorted her reality almost beyond recognition. She had loved her five children - as every witness who knew her and knew her relationship with her family confirmed. She had not physically or mentally abused her offspring, nor had she neglected their needs. Until she came under the spell of the belief that they had to die, she had adored them and treated them with affection, kindness, and love.
When she killed her children, Andrea Yates suffered from two kinds of mental illness: post-partum depression and post-partum psychosis. Both of them are painful, frightening, and crippling. Though she had suffered from these conditions after giving birth to her fourth child, she and her husband nonetheless proceeded with a fifth pregnancy.
According to Andrea's husband, Rusty Yates, he had brought her to a psychiatrist several days before she killed their children. The psychiatrist, Rusty claims, refused to put Andrea on Haldol, an anti-psychotic medication that had worked for her in the past. As an alternative, the doctor adjusted the dosage of her anti-depressants and told Andrea to think positive thoughts. Had he instead prescribed Haldol, the tragedies that ensued might have been averted.
Andrea and her husband, like the surrounding society, underestimated the power of mental illness. They thought that since Andrea was a good person, she would never harm her beloved children. Strangers have now embraced the converse inference, believing that since Andrea killed her children and did so methodically, she must never have been a good person or a loving mother in the first place.
The shared assumption underlying both these beliefs is the notion that mental illness cannot affect one's essential nature: A good person cannot be compelled by psychosis to do bad things. Unfortunately, this assumption is false.
Yates did not rant and rave like a Hollywood portrayal of a mentally ill woman, nor did she mistake her own actions for something other than homicide. She believed, however, that her children had to die or they would suffer the fires of hell. We do not know what put such an idea into her head. She had apparently been close with a traveling preacher, a spiritual mentor who told Andrea that she was evil, that her children were damned, and that only death could save her. Perhaps this played some role in the particular shape that her pathology took, though we may never know.
However it got there, the idea possessed her consciousness. To understand how she felt, one might try to imagine the motives of Jewish women whose children were about to be discovered in their hiding places during World War II. Knowing that their children would otherwise be taken to Auschwitz, some mothers might have given them cyanide and done so out of love.
In Andrea's case, of course, Nazis were not pursuing her family, and neither - so far as we know - was Satan. Her children could have been safe and happy if she had not brutally snuffed out their lives. Because of mental illness, however, Andrea experienced an urgency that misguidedly and insanely could have led her to feel as strongly as the mothers facing Nazis that what she was doing was in the best interests of her children. Indeed, the prosecutors themselves acknowledged that this might well have been the case.
Yates's was not a rational point of view. It was an obsessive, psychotic delusion. It was, in a word, insane. The law, and our society, should have counseled the Texas jury so to find, and Yates should now be provided with treatment, not consigned to a prison term.
A Different Approach to Infanticide
As we contemplate Andrea Yates's fate, we should consider for a moment how other Western nations have dealt with similar cases. Infanticide statutes in at least 30 countries rule out murder charges and usually impose sentences of probation and counseling instead. These statutes reveal an understanding of the reality of post-partum mental illness, and a willingness to presume that sickness, rather than malevolence, explains most such cases.
Andrea Yates, by contrast, will spend the next forty years in prison and could legally have been sentenced to be executed in the State of Texas. It is time for the United States to cultivate more of the compassion and enlightenment that other countries have exhibited in responding to the ravages of what we sometimes call "insanity."
posted on February 2, 2006 08:48:59 AM new
Selfishness, frustration, indifference.... you don't have to be crazy to commit a heinous crime.
She knew what she did was wrong. She waited until her husband left work and afterwards she called him and let him know what she had done.
I'm not saying she was well balanced. I'm just saying that's not a valid excuse for killiing five kids. Why is it that she felt death would be a great solution for her kids but something that she fought so hard against for herself?
I might have been able to buy into it if she had tried to kill herself too.
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Never ask what sort if computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
posted on February 2, 2006 08:54:52 AM new
Maggie, what caused Darlene Routier to kill her two kids. Depression, dissatisfaction with their life, greed, who knows. But I don't buy into the insanity defense.
"“More Iraqis think things are going well in Iraq than Americans do. I guess they don’t get the New York Times over there.”—Jay Leno".
posted on February 2, 2006 09:13:30 AM new
Of course she was in control of her actions. She waited until her husband left for work and made sure she was done before her mother in law got there. She knew exactly what she was doing. She knew it was wrong when she called her husband and told her what she had done.
And yes, I realise her explaination was that she thought her kids would be better off dead but if she thought death was such a wonderful thing and she loved her kids, wouldn't she want to experience this wonderful thing with them?
As for not killing your kids because you are selfish? Mags, off the top of my head I can think of two very well publicized cases where women killed their kids because they were getting in the way of their lifestyle.
Just because you personally would never do something or cannot comprhend the action does not mean that someone else that does is crazy. You would never rob a bank - does that mean that people that do are insane?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Never ask what sort if computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
posted on February 2, 2006 09:36:18 AM new
I believe that any woman that murders her child or children is insane.
I think the authorities should do whatever it takes to get them in a normal mental state and put them in an 8 X 8 room for the rest of their natural life.
She had been treated in the past with the anti-psychotic drug Haldol after the birth of her fourth child. That history supports the finding of mental illness as a cause of the murders.
posted on February 2, 2006 10:32:31 AM new
Helen - I'm not saying that the woman was mentally healthy - I'm just saying she was not out of her mind. She had the wherewithall to plan those murders, she knew what she was doing was wrong, she knew she would be punished. So punish her damnit.
Instead of planning the murders of her children after her husband left she could have turned to him and said "I'm losing it and I'm going to kill the kids as soon as you walk out that door. HELP ME!". Instead of picking up the phone to call her husband afterwards and let him know she had killed the kids, she could have picked up the phone 60 minutes earlier and dialed 911 but she did neither. She deserves to be convicted of 5 counts of murder and then sent to wherever it is that she felt was so wonderful that her kids should be there without her.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Never ask what sort if computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
posted on February 2, 2006 10:46:47 AM new ...."she could have turned to him and said "I'm losing it and I'm going to kill the kids as soon as you walk out that door. HELP ME!"
..."she could have picked up the phone 60 minutes earlier and dialed 911 but she did neither"
Those are the actions that a sane individual would make...further evidence that Andrea Yates by not doing so was insane.
posted on February 2, 2006 11:06:55 AM new
Fenix, in my experience, depression can be well hidden but it controls every aspect of your life. I believe a person can commit a crime and appear to have complete control over their actions but they don't. Their brains give them different commands than a normal person.
The thing that's always bugged me is her husband, Rusty. Maybe he's very stoic, but I've never seen him get emotional. I've never heard him accept any of the responsibility for Andrea's behavior. Have any of you?
posted on February 2, 2006 11:28:41 AM new
"As far as killing herself, she wasn't trying to protect herself, by killing her kids she thought she was protecting them."
protecting them from what??
to kill somone-thats a hell of a way to protect someone.
posted on February 2, 2006 12:15:38 PM new
::Those are the actions that a sane individual would make...further evidence that Andrea Yates by not doing so was insane.::
The difference is that I see it as the actions of an unreasonable person and you see unreasonable actions as proof of an insane person.
I have to ask this because generally I see you making some type of rationalization for most crimes that are brought up here. When do you feel that a person is responsible for their crimes?
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
Never ask what sort if computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If he's not, why embarrass him? - Tom Clancy
posted on February 2, 2006 12:24:13 PM new
Maggie said "in this case, she was delusional and being led by voices in her head. that is insanity. (AKA GEORGE BUSH SPEAK TO GOD.)
Although she knew what she was doing, she had no control over her actions, that too is insanity." (AKA BUSH STAYING THE COURSE) and "How she will be able to live with what she has done, that's another question." (AKA GEO BUSH NO PROBLEM WE ARE WINNING)
Change the she to he and we have a description of our President. Maybe we can put these 2 nut cases in the same padded room.
posted on February 2, 2006 01:40:33 PM new
I read she DID ask for help and said she was having a hard time looking after all the kids after her 4th child. I read her family thought she was just bummed out, which makes me realize just how little people know about depression, especially if severe.
posted on February 2, 2006 01:49:28 PM new
Sympathy for Andrea Yates. Yeah, right. Whatever. I guess I don't see it that way. Whatever poor Andrea's mental state, how she was feeling emotionally, whatever neurons weren't firing correctly, etc. makes no real difference to me cuz what I keep seeing in my head are those poor children. I keep seeing them running for their lives inside the house as their mother chased them down. I keep seeing them with terrified looks on their faces, tears running down their cheeks, begging and pleading with their mother to stop. I keep thinking how utterly horrifying it must have been to have your own mother murdering you. Whenever most people are in pain or need comfort, they call for their mothers. As a child, who else does one turn to in times of need? If some stranger broke in and was drowning those kids, the first thought in their head would be "Mom!!! Help me!!!!!" So how does a young mind reconcile the fact that your mother is murdering you? In those awful long moments it takes to die from drowning, while your thrashing with all your young body can muster, how horrifying is it to have to think that the one person in the entire world who should be protecting you is the same person who is killing you?
posted on February 2, 2006 02:16:31 PM new
classic,
The trouble with guys like you and Bear is your choice of government has NO CASE TO REST ON.
Which case would you guys want to rest on. Would it be FAILED POLICIES,FAILED WAR,NEW ORLEANS,NATIONAL DEBT,TRADE WITH COMMUNIST CHINA,SOUTHERN BORDERS or TAKING FROM THE MIDDLE AND WORKING CLASS TO FEED THE RICH.
Don't worry classic and bear the American people will put your failed form of politics to rest starting in 2006.
We are all watching DUMBO flip flopping all over the place. The conservative lawmakers don't know what to worry about first getting re-elected or trying to stay out of jail. What a mess you conservatives have on your hands.
