posted on November 14, 2000 09:12:05 PM
Business is all about risk. Risk vs reward, actually.
As far as Paypal is concerned, the key is understanding (and minimizing) the risk that you are taking.
For example, the fact is that money left in a Paypal account is very much at risk. And, although they do offer interest on the account -- based on a money market account -- the fact is that the risk is MUCH more akin to a junk bond.
And that's just one of many issues.
I still use Paypal, but I do not keep money in my Paypal account. I also minimize the amount kept in the account into which I transfer my Paypal funds.
And even then, I calculate the "cost" of accepting Paypal not at the percentage of their fee, but something closer to 8-10% to include the inherent risks.
For me, it's still worth it. For others, it very well may not be.
posted on November 14, 2000 09:24:25 PMI have Paypal hooked up to a free bank account that has nothing in it except my Paypal funds, which never add up to more than 50 dollars or so at any given time before I transfer them out to a regular account which Paypal has nothing to do with.
Read: I know that Paypal will probably try to steal my money, but I'm willing to jump through hoops to do business with them.
ExecutiveGirl, I've received many emails like that in recent weeks. Most recently, when I told a seller that I wouldn't be paying with Paypal since I closed my account, I gave him a few AW links to read. Lo and behold, he is one of the silent selling masses who has had his account frozen. Same old scenario: Dozens of emails later, one terse reply that there MAY have been a fraudulent payment xxx weeks ago. Despite being unable to access his $$ for weeks, the wonder of it all is that he continues to offer it as a payment option! Go figure.
posted on November 14, 2000 11:15:15 PM
I've never accepted PayPal, and just a few months back started accepting Billpoint.
80% of my high bidders still send a check or MO, and my sales are the same as they were before either one of these services started up.
posted on November 14, 2000 11:28:30 PM
To answer the subject line question: "No!!!"
I won't repeat too much of what others have said, as it's been said well. It's all about the lies and the crappy customer service. I'm still fuming about x.com shutting down with less than 30 days notice! X.com=PayPal and it's just more of the same shabby treatment. Without the x.com bank account to sweep my PP money into, I would have to give them access to my "real bank", and heck no, that's not going to happen. I don't like feeling like I can't trust the company holding my money, and like others here, my eBay money is not 'mad money' or 'fun money'. If my account was frozen over some $10 item and other payments kept rolling in that I couldn't access, I'd be sitting in the dark with the power shut off with PP holding my electric bill money. Yikes.
I have "PLEASE, NO PAYPAL!" in my auction listings that I'm about to launch, but I'm willing to try out any of the other services out there so I don't expect too much complaining from bidders. I have no problem with the fees some others charge, as long as I feel like I can trust them.
My PayPal account is still open but I removed my ebay email address from it so there won't be any "accidental" payments coming through. I'm hundreds below the $500 limit so I could choose to "ride free" for a long time but I just don't feel comfortable with that company anymore, and I was a BIG TIME PP supporter for a very long time.
Of course, my *MOM* sent me $10 via PP this afternoon *after* I showed her all the AW threads on PP a couple weeks ago!! :-P Just hope I can get it into my x.com account and out with the ATM before the account closes!
Sheri
[email protected]
[ edited by BlackCoffeeBlues on Nov 14, 2000 11:30 PM ]
posted on November 15, 2000 07:01:00 AM
fountainhouse quoted me:
>>I have Paypal hooked up to a free bank account that has nothing in it except my Paypal funds, which never add up to more than 50 dollars or so at any given time before I transfer them out to a regular account which Paypal has nothing to do with. <<
and then wrote:
>>Read: I know that Paypal will probably try to steal my money, but I'm willing to jump through hoops to do business with them.<<
Do you get a second opinion when there's a big repair due on your car? Do you check your bank statements every month for discrepancies? Do you make sure your order is correctly filled at McDonald's before you leave the counter? So you don't trust those companies---or you're just a smart consumer? I think the latter. Plus, *any* of those actions requires more effort than my online-banking activities do! Took about 3 minutes to open an account, takess 30 seconds to point, click and transfer. If that's "jumping through hoops" to you, I think you need more exercise.
I am continuing to take payments with their service, poorly run or not, because it works well for me and the risks are worth it to me. I feel exactly the same way about eBay. I don't see how anyone who sells on eBay with THAT company's lies and betrayals, can point fingers at people who still use Paypal.
posted on November 15, 2000 07:37:54 AM
Gosh, amazing how many of these postings closely resemble the "unkind" remarks being made about BillPoint just a few short months ago.
With apologies to NBC...AH, WHAT a difference a few days make.
Given time, I'm sure these very same postings will resurface in the future w/the very same remarks about ExChange Path, BidPay, (Fill in the Blank).
posted on November 15, 2000 07:42:49 AM
Once buyers start running up against the $250 spending limit and are required to verify their bank account, I think you'll see a lot more people who have a change of heart concerning PayPal.
posted on November 15, 2000 07:50:13 AM
Eventer ..... I think the only comments made about Billpoint had to do with the fees they were charging. IMHO Billpoint has always been upfront about their TOU & they don't change them on a weekly/daily/hourly basis.
I can't recall them ever saying their service was going to be FREE, forever.
The comments were in general, not aimed at you specifically.
I'm been watching with bemused interest as many of the same people (again, not aiming this at you specifically) currently bemoaning PayPal were the very same people who were badmouthing BillPoint not so long ago.
I wonder how long before Exchange Path or Yahoo or the lastest & greatest in the "came out of nowhere" pay sites will also implement a fee or change their rules & the cries will rise again.
My point being...people can continually chase after the latest & greatest "cheap" place so they don't have to pay even a thin dime, but how long are customers going to want to sign up for ALL these places just to keep up w/a seller?
I believe one person mentioned they had NINE different pay sites as options? I'm doing good to try & convince my customers that using a credit card on the web doesn't mean the bogey man is going to make off with their credit rating. I wonder how many people REALLY want to be moved from the latest freebie seller place to the next.
posted on November 15, 2000 09:52:09 AM
Just to set the record straight, I am also amused at the folks who complain ONLY about the fees. ALL the payment services will charge fees at some point. But the real issue with Paypal (in my opinion) was never the fees, it was the lies and the fact that they proclaimed a "protection plan" when it was actually a plan to protect Paypal at the expense of other innocent people. When someone cheats using Paypal, whether it is using a stolen CC, taking a payment and not shipping or receiving an item and then charging back the payment. Paypal's response is to recover the money from the easiest target, no matter how innocent. They freeze accounts while still accepting money into it so other innocent parties lose. This is outrageous and probably illegal. It will take time before the results of the lawsuits are in.
This has nothing to do with chasing each service looking for a free deal. It has to do with getting rid of a service that is providing a crooked deal. One of the reasons our customers are so afraid to sign up for these services is because of all the horror stories with Paypal. I have yet to hear even ONE such story about Exchangepath, Payplace, Moneyzap.
posted on November 15, 2000 10:22:18 AMI wonder how long before Exchange Path or Yahoo or the lastest & greatest in the "came out of nowhere" pay sites will also implement a fee or change their rules & the cries will rise again.
There is a big difference between PayPal, ExchangePath, and PayDirect. The difference is that ExchangePath and PayDirect have said from the get-go that they reserve the right to charge fees in the future. No surprises when and if they do start charging. We had fair warning.
Contrast this with PayPal who fed users the line "Always free". And then they started charging.
And then they lied about their useless bank account verification scheme.
And then they lied about their useless buyer and seller protection plan.
And then they started freezing users' accounts seemingly at random.
And then they started dipping into users' bank accounts without explicit permission, which they said they would NEVER do.
As so many have already pointed out, the real issue with PayPal isn't the fees at all. The fees are rather fair for the service provided.
The real issue is their lying and constantly changing the rules (often retroactively). A company that handles other people's money as a course of business must be built upon a foundation of trust. PayPal is built upon a foundation of quicksand, and they are starting to sink.
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Nov 15, 2000 10:24 AM ]
posted on November 15, 2000 10:37:24 AM" I have yet to hear even ONE such story about Exchangepath, Payplace, Moneyzap"
I've heard of problems with ExchangePath and I personally have had some problems with PayPlace, (their acceptance is a fraction of PayPal's) but I confess I've never heard of a problem with MoneyZap.
Let me put that into a better perspective. MoneyZap gets under 250 matches... no complaints. No complaints from PayMe.com either, and it has 10 times the number of matches on eBay.
The irony of that is PayMe has been down for over a month for maintenance. but no complaints... must be a great system.
posted on November 15, 2000 10:45:04 AM
Ok, here's a situation. My auction states "I'm sorry but we can no longer accept Paypal". I didn't actually close my Paypal account yet - (waiting on transfers to go through) but I will shortly.
I had a customer who bid on a $40+ item asking if I would take Paypal. I initially told her I'm sorry but I can't accept them anymore. She was very nice & understanding and said she would try to set up an account with one of the other services I offered. A while later she emailed me again and said she was having problems but would have her husband try to set up a new account when he was available.
Since she was so nice about the whole thing and since I still technically *did* have a Paypal account still open I told her she could just pay via Paypal this one time. And she did, immediately and she was very greatful. Well, she accidentally paid me TWICE - and you know what that mean - double the fees that I have to pay Paypal. So, I refunded her second payment, minus the fee I was charged for that second payment she sent me. She later inquired why I did that.
I explained to her the fee I had to pay and this was her response:
ooooooooo!!!!!!!! Egad!!!!! We had no idea!!!! When did they start that??? I guess they smelled money in all of the transactions that crossed over their palms !!! I think we will reconsider our/their relationship ((
That is the 3rd person in the past 24 hours who has said something like that to me.
I look forward to the day when someone mentions "Paypal" and everyone else says "what was Paypal?????"
posted on November 15, 2000 10:55:59 AMabingdon"PayPal is built upon a foundation of quicksand, and they are starting to sink."
Your diagnosis is in dispute, 4.5 million customers. Check out the ING website and their statement "ING and PayPal to bring e-mail-based payments to Europe"
PayPal is indeed starting to sink. They are losing sellers right and left. As these horror stories spread (and they are beginning the spread quickly) buyers are becoming alarmed as well. Not to mention the $250 spending limit for buyers. Once they are required to add a bank account, most will be history.
PayPal built that 4.5 million user customer base with lies, deception, and $5 bribes. The lies and deceptions are rising to the surface (slowly but surely) and for all practical purposes the $5 referral fee is history as is the sign-up bonus.
I repeat my previous statement: PayPal is built upon quicksand and they are starting to sink.
posted on November 15, 2000 11:08:05 AM
I agree that Paypal is on its way down. I get BIDDERS on a daily basis stating they don't trust Paypal anymore. I also get inquiries from other SELLERS asking why I don't accept Paypal anymore - and I send them links to these Paypal pages and I know of several already who have closed their accounts with them.
posted on November 15, 2000 11:48:36 AM
I have done close to $10,000.00 through PayPal. I have had one problem and it was cleared up in a couple of hours.
posted on November 15, 2000 11:51:03 AM
It doesn't matter whether I like PayPal or not, the buyers overwhelmingly do. I'm only doing this for the money. Unless the buyers start requesting something different I won't offer it, PayPal and BillPoint to a lesser extent is all they've requested from me and wanting their business I comply. I enjoy PayPal because the customers seem to take the initiative and pay on their own without an invoice or even an EOA sometimes, an email saved is time and effort saved.
Good luck to those with a message to give buyers, you've got your priorities, I've got mine. Business first and foremost.
posted on November 15, 2000 12:01:31 PM
Does anybody remember what a Ponzi scheme is? It works something like the following:
You get a bunch of people to sign up making them great promises. You deliver on these promises at first, so they tell their friends. Eventually, you can't continue with your promises, so you start making some of your customers pay for your rashness. They get annoyed and drop out. They tell their friends, who say "But it's working great for me." The last ones to drop out are the ones who pay the most.
Paypal has shown that they have no qualms about making innocent people pay for the crimes of the guilty, crimes that Paypal could have prevented months ago if they had put in address verification as they promised. Not only will they make a seller pay if his buyer uses a stolen CC, they will make him pay if his buyer's buyer does. Not only will they take the amount in question, they will freeze his whole account even if there are thousands in it and the amount in question is $19. So not only does he pay, all of his buyers end up paying. By the time they unfreeze the account, they have frozen a bunch of other accounts to give them capital to continue operating.
At some point, the results of all the lawsuits will come in, they will run out of accounts to freeze and then it will be your turn.
Wonder why Damon's been so quiet? He's probably been frozen. Someone who bought his explanations charged them back.
posted on November 15, 2000 12:16:20 PM"Does anybody remember what a Ponzi scheme is?"
Yes, I know what a Ponzi scheme is. I'd imagine that the New York Times, The Associated Press, Reuters, Forbes, The Wall St. Journal, CBS MarketWatch, Bank Technology News, etc also know what a Ponzi scheme is too. You feel you've uncovered a Ponzi scheme of a service they've reported on as legitimate?
I hope you theory is sarcasim, because if you're serious... well, does the term 'reality check' mean anything?
PS: here's a clue, a reality check isn't a form of payment.
posted on November 15, 2000 12:23:02 PM
>>I'd imagine that the New York Times, The Associated Press, Reuters, Forbes, The Wall St. Journal, CBS MarketWatch, Bank Technology News, etc also know what a Ponzi scheme is too. You feel you've uncovered a Ponzi scheme of a service they've reported on as legitimate? <<
Some of the biggest con games in history first got coverage in the papers which gave them an air of legitimacy. Do you remember the S&L crash that is costing the taxpayers billions? A few weeks before the crash, those banks were all legitimate and there were articles about them in all the papers. And these were real banks, not a bank wanna be like Paypal.
One of the first tests of legitimacy: is the company delivering what they promised? Even if they are, it doesnt prove anything. But if they aren't, you dont have to look any further. And Payapl isn't.
>>does the term 'reality check' mean anything?
PS: here's a clue, a reality check isn't a form of payment.<<
If you stick with Paypal, the day you want to empty your account for good a reality check may be all you get.
i HaVe a WeB SiTe THaT'S ViSiTeD FoR MoRe THaN 10K a WeeK aND i WiLL STaRT InsERtinG PayPaL BaNNeRS aND LoGoS THeRe. WHy? BeCauSe a yeaR aGo i WaS oNLy aCCePTiNG CHeCKS, MoNey oRDeRS, aND CaSH (LiKe 90% oF aLL eBay SeLLeRS)(PRiMiTiVe Way) BuT SiNCe PayPaL WaS iNTRoDuCeD My SaLeS RoCKeT To THe SKieS, aND WHeN PayPaL ToLD mE THaT THey WouLD Be a CHaRGe oF 2.5% i THouGH/SaId WHaT a RiDiCuLouS Fee iS iT, aRe THey KiDDiNG oR WHaT, i SaiD oF CouRSe No PRoBLeM CHaRGe Me iF you WaNT 3% i DoN'T CaRe WHy? BeCauSe CoMPaReD To oTHeR SeRViCeS iT WaS STuPiD, THeN WHeN THey SaiD THaT i WiLL HaVe To VeRiFy My aCCouNT By PRoViDiNG a BaNK aCCouNT # i SaiD, oF CouRSe No PRoBLeM aFTeR aLL iT'S THe BeST Way To aVoiD FRauD, aFTeR aLL i DoN'T HaVe MiLLioNS oF DoLLaRS iN My BaNK, BuT SoMe PeoPLe aRe So PaRaNoiD aBouT SeCuRiTy aND aLL THaT STuFF aND HaVe No MoRe THaN 10K iN THeiR aCCouNTS, i DoN'T WaNT To SouND RuDe BuT SeCuRiTy iS BaSiCaLLy FoR THoSe MiLLioNaiReS THaT MaKe BiG TRaNSaCTioNS a Day, NoT FoR eBay SeLLeRS, BuT aNyWayS. i FouND PayPaL THe BeST, eaSy aND FaST Way To Pay aND To Be PaiD. To aCCePT $250 BuCKS iN PayMeNTS iS MoRe THaN eNouGH FoR a PeRSoNaL aCCouNT, Do you WaNT To aCCePT MoRe? PayPaL SayS: No PRoBLeM, i CaN HeLP you WiTH THaT, BuT PLeaSe aT LeaST Pay Me THe CHaRGeS THaT iT WiLL CoST Me. i'M GiViNG you THe CHaNCe To aCCePT $250 iN PayMeNTS FoR FRee, BuT you NoW WaNT To aCCePT MoRe aND FoR FRee? No Way, NoTHiNG iS ReaLLy FoR FRee uNLeSS THeRe'S a CaTCH. yOu Are ASkinG ToO mUCh.
So No MaTTeR WHaT PeoPLe Say aBouT PayPaL i WiLL KeeP SuPPoRTiNG THeM, uNTiL i FiND SoMeTHiNG THaT'S NoT RiGHT, BuT aS FaR aS i CaN See eVeRyTHiNG iS RiGHT aND eXTReMeLy FaiR FoR THeM aND FoR THeiR uSeRS, FoR THiS ReaSoN i WiLL DiSPLay THeiR LoGos aND BaNNeRS iN My WeB SiTe, NoT FoR THe ReFeRRaL BoNuS, iF NoT BeCauSe THey aRE ReaLLy GReaT aND FaiR To Pay oNLiNe. NoW iF a FeW oF you DoN'T LiKe PayPaL youR ReaSoN MuST HaVe, aND i'M NoT HeRe To DiSCuSS THaT, BuT i HoPe you ReaLLy TaKe iTS LoGoS oFF youR auCTioNS aS you aRe SayiNG, oTHeRWiSe PLeaSe SToP CRyiNG aBouT eVeRyTHiNG. iF you CRy aBouT eBay i STiLL uNDeRSTaND BeCauSe We SPeaK THe SaMe LaNGuaGe, aND aLSo THe MeDia CaN uNDeRSTaND, BuT iF THe MeDia CoMeS HeRe aND See THaT NoW you aRe CRyiNG aBouT PayPaL THey JuST WiLL iGNoRe ouR ReAL CLaiMS aND eBay WiLL STiLL KeeP DoiNG WHaTeVeR THey WaNT. i uNDeRSTaND THaT MaNy oF you HaVe/HaD PRoBLeMS WiTH PayPaL iN THe PaST i DiD Too, BuT i TRieD To uNDeRSTaND THaT THey aRe NoT eVeN a yeaR oLD, aND THey aLReaDy HaVe CLoSeD MiLLioNS aND MiLLioNS oF TRaNSaCTioNS, aND THe BeST Way iS THaT THey aRe HeaRiNG ouR PeTiTioNS, aT LeaST NoW We CaN aCCePT iNTeRNaTioNaL PayMeNTS, wE aRE AlsO aBLe to aCCEpt DibIT CaRds, eTC. eTC. iT SeeMS THaT you aRe MaD BeCauSe THey SaiD THey WiLL Be FRee aND NoW aRe CHaRGiNG, CoMe oN GiVe PayPaL a BReaK, iTS CHaRGeS/fEEs aRe RiDiCuLouS CoMPaReD To aNy SeRViCe oN THe iNTeRNeT. iF you DoN'T LiKe PayPaL aNyMoRe GooD, JuST MoVe oN aND TaKe oFF iTS LoGoS FRoM youR auCTioN(S), aND Go To THe PRiMiTiVe Way, BuT DoN'T Lie To youRSeLF aND uS By SayiNG THaT you WiLL TaKe iT oFF BuT you KNoW VeRy WeLL THaT you WiLL KeeP uSiNG iT, BeCauSe BiDDeRS/BuyeRS WiLL KeeP aSKiNG FoR THaT MeTHoD oF PayMeNT, So PLeaSe DoN'T SPeaK oN BeHaLF oF BuyeRS To HaRM PayPaL. PLEASE STOP CRYING FOR EVERYTHING.
posted on November 15, 2000 12:59:46 PM
My Paypal horror story, which is really my own fault too, goes like this.
I had a sale for $45 to a regular customer of mine. I received the confirmation email along with about 15 others that day and because I was in a hurry, I just jumped right along, got things packed up and on their way. One week letter exchanged positive feedbacks with the buyer who thanked me for a speedy and successful transaction.
Fast forward 2 months later when i get email from Paypal telling me the transaction has been cancelled.. I'm like, WHAT? After perusing the histories, I now see no record of payment ever being credited to my account. In emails with the buyer, she closed her Paypal account, and noticed the payment to me as "uncompleted", but thought nothing of it since she had her merchandise.
I had a very nice chat with someone in Paypal's customer service, who could only tell me how things worked on my end, but it appears the buyer added a "." to the end of my email address, so I got the emails but not the money. I forwarded this information to the bidder who stated, "I won't pay twice for the same item. I closed my account and my balance is 0." One month later, I have heard nothing from the customer at all. The Paypal representative has told me that a check will be mailed to the buyer for the $45 that is being refunded to them.
I'm now in a situation of hoping when she gets this check from PAYPAL, she realizes I and PAYPAL was telling her the truth, and she pays me the $45 I'm owed.
I learned a valuable lesson - VERIFY EVERY PAYMENT made via Paypal, Exchangepath, Billpoint, etc prior to shipping.... I'm now out the $45 and the merchandise because of this. And I can't add the "." to my email address in hopes of preventing further problems, because Paypal recognizes that as an invalid address.
posted on November 15, 2000 01:47:16 PM
I use PayPal only in rare instances where a Customer requires it. The cost and horror stories of the charge-back fiascos have certainly made me look elsewhere.
Any good business person manages their costs and most customers will use PayDirect, if asked.
Oh yes, I do have an upgraded PayPal account . . . I just choose not to favor it.
posted on November 15, 2000 05:53:00 PM
CAgrrl, I hope you understand me, but if you never have used paypal you have no opinnion to give it will be like me talking about NASA and the best way to land in mars.
Poton.
[ edited by POTON on Nov 15, 2000 06:28 PM ]
but no complaints... must be a great system.
ooooooooo!!!!!!!! Egad!!!!! We had no idea!!!! When did they start that??? I guess they smelled money in all of the transactions that crossed over their palms !!! I think we will reconsider our/their relationship 
((
