posted on November 16, 2000 08:36:01 PM new
Claiming to be the wife of an ebaY employee, a poster on the Trust and Safety board at ebaY in the thread called "Ebay user is harassing my bidders" admits to emailing the bidders of sellers accused by the Shill Detective netcops, warning them not to pay.
She claims that since the auction is over, and ebaY's rule states "Auction interference - Emailing bidders in an open auction to warn them away from a seller or item." that she is not violating any rule by doing this. These are sellers in good standing who have been accused and investigated by the 'Shill Detectives' (or more recently 'Shill Busters') which is the group that left the Detective Agency board.
posted on November 16, 2000 08:51:18 PM new
It's not the wild wild west folks. Yes, I'm talking to you Edicks. And yes, in case you were wondering E is for exiguous.
You are damaging the online trading community with bully tactics. You are fostering an atmosphere of distrust and fear and it won't be long before lawsuits and or ebay and its users take you down. Possibly not before YOU take ebay down.
posted on November 16, 2000 08:51:38 PM new
eBay Inc.'s User Agreement
5.5 Manipulation. Neither bidders nor sellers may manipulate the price of any item nor may you interfere with other user's listings or auctions.
-------------------
It does not say it has to be over or not in the user's agreement.
IMHO I believe it's not over until payemnt and items are reveived on both ends.
Manipulation is against eBay's user agreement.
Being the alleged wife of an eBay employee she should know this.
edited to add section 9 which looks interesting:
9. Breach.
Without limiting other remedies, we may immediately issue a warning, temporarily suspend, indefinitely suspend or terminate your membership and refuse to provide our services to you: (a) if you breach this Agreement or the documents it incorporates by reference; (b) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; or (c) if we believe that your actions may cause legal liability for you, our users or us.
[ edited by AnonymousCoward on Nov 16, 2000 08:58 PM ]
posted on November 16, 2000 09:01:04 PM new
The point is that they don't need #*!@ from shineola to go on. Just a feelin..... right guys??????? They are gunnin for you sellers with repeat customers. Watch yer back and be sure to ask your long time cusomers/bidders to stay away from your auctions till the smoke (the yellow gaseous cloud) clears.
posted on November 16, 2000 09:10:39 PM new
I'm supposed to be sleepin and I guess that is what I'll do.
But first I'd like to take this opportunity to again say that I think your offshoot (offshoot because you got kicked out of the other place) Edick attempts are lame, foolhearty, and just plain stupid.
Do you not realize that you can be sued for all your worth when you make the biggest mistake of your careers?
Don't for a minute believe a false or secret email addy will protect you. When someone gets ready to take you to court. (not cyber court) REAL court...... all will be logged and ALL will be logged to you.
And even if you do catch a few tunas with the dolphins, the shillers can sue you as well. lol idiots
posted on November 16, 2000 09:16:51 PM new
Frustrated, mean-spirited cowards. In RL they're probably wallflowers with no authority and need to lord over others on the net to compensate for their meaningless lives.
Sorry, but I've had it with these jerks. Somehow I've made it into my third year, 1500+ unique FB with no negatives, without having the misfortune of meeting up with any of these &*^%, until recent weeks.
I've read lots of threads about these groups, lots of complaining (that I've contributed to), but what is the answer for honest sellers? Do we just have to wait until ebay institutes their email protections? Heaven knows when that will be.
How does the average (read not computer savvy) seller fight an anonymous enemy?
This woman, if her story is true, should be sued to oblivion.
posted on November 16, 2000 09:22:41 PM new
Fountainhouse.... We can only hope that you dont have repeat customers. In art glass REAL art glass one sees the same ids constantly. (I usually snipe as the others have more cashola than me) but its true you will see a specific collector bidding on specific items.
posted on November 16, 2000 09:35:32 PM new
I guess this makes me so angry because I'm the sort that always has a Plan B. Plan A (running honest auctions without interference) worked for years, but is now threatening to go south -- and I have no Plan B!
Sitting on my hands and waiting for the next onslaught makes me crazy.
posted on November 16, 2000 09:37:41 PM new
An eBay detective is a person that due to the fact eBay does not police their own site, goes about doing it. You will also here them refered to net cops. The recent mess concerning such is due to the few that have decided to email folks, and directly interfer with ongoing auctions. This is due to the leval of flustration about such acts as shilling, fraud, sheilding etc. Regretably these folks have taken it upon thereselfs to be the judge, creating vigalantieism. There is a lot of generated parinioa about such. I hate to say this, but it is with good reason. It only takes a few folks to create a lot of trouble by not respecting the fact that eBay is the "judge". They are the ones who can suspend the user for breaking the rules. It is also such that new software is to be implemented at eBay that should if programed corectly will catch more shillers than any groupe of folks can. For the folks that are new shilling is when a person, or pesrsons bid on an auction to rase the price of the item for the bidder. This is also a real fear on eBay due to the proxy bidding system. This program about EDAs has beenspread across more that one board. In the end result it will educate more bidders to be carful of the auction they bid on, though so far no one has been able to tell them how to look and see if it is going on. It takes experiance to see bidding paterns that may, or may not be shilling. I hope this helps the folks that do not have a clue as to what is going on here.
posted on November 16, 2000 10:39:23 PM new
It is a pain, but I would recommend using private auctions if you have been harassed by any of those "detective" people. Private auctions have some other advantages, too, like people can't "bottom feed" on YOUR bidders.
posted on November 17, 2000 12:39:49 AM new
In fiction detectives are always shrewd and savy. These poor e-dicks don't realize that being sued is one of the better possibilities they may face. There are a few rams scattered among the sheep and if they mess around with the wrong one unknowing he may "reach out and touch someone"
posted on November 17, 2000 12:55:26 AM new
Buffaloguy,
I have deleted your post with a link to another message board which is against the CG's. I apologize for not catching it earlier. Please do not post URLs or links to other boards as doing so could place your posting privileges in jeopardy.
posted on November 17, 2000 02:24:35 AM new
Hello, it's the "Wife" here.
toyranch said:
".......[the wife] admits to emailing the bidders of sellers accused by the Shill Detective netcops, warning them not to pay. She claims that since the auction is over, and ebaY's rule states "Auction interference - Emailing bidders in an open auction to warn them away from a seller or item." that she is not violating any rule by doing this."
Toy, toy, toy......crediting statements to me that I never made really isn't good form - no matter *where* you're posting or how protective the forum's participants.
toy also said:
"These are sellers in good standing who have been accused and investigated by the 'Shill Detectives' (or more recently 'Shill Busters') which is the group that left the Detective Agency board."
Correction:
This is ONE SELLER who, as a result of *MY* report (not that of any "group" submitted yesterday, has already had one shill ID suspended (a second was already suspended), and has been warned by eBay to stop shilling (you know, high-volume shiller courtesy).
The post to eBay's T&S board in which this seller publicized personal information about me was pulled. And after a warning from eBay, this seller's "About Me" page has been modified to exclude personal information about me that the seller added yesterday in retaliation for being reported. Unfortunately, my User ID, as well as the manufactured slander the seller wasted no time creating and publishing yesterday, again in retaliation, remains - but I'm working on that.
It's darned nice of you to attack an honest person in a forum they don't frequent. Don't bother responding to me, as this will be my only post here.
eBay's investigation of this seller continues, as it is a particularly extensive and rampant case of shilling. It took me many hours to gather the information I included in my report to SafeHarbor. Additionally, until the appropriate action has been taken by eBay, I will continue to pursue this case.
E
[ edited by museflash on Nov 17, 2000 02:28 AM ]
[ edited by museflash on Nov 17, 2000 02:35 AM ]
posted on November 17, 2000 02:29:50 AM new
It's my humble opinion that if a person slanders or libels a business or a person they can be sued. I would *suggest* that everyone needs to be careful on what they are accusing other people doing or not doing. Personally I believe people need to be accountable for what they write, say or otherwise communicate. I am a firm believer in not writing, saying or otherwise communicating unless I can prove it in court.
For civil cases, one only has to tip the scales of justice. Not like a criminal case where proof is to be beyond the reasonable doubt. So if there is a track record, character witnesses and proven damage to selling on eBay by false accusations and so on (someone mentioned message thread postings too), the person spreading falsehoods could lose their shirt or blouse, homes, businesses, vehicles and so on.
The other day I was browsing through a net mag and read a bit about people while online do and say things they don't normally. And apparently they don't think they can be "traced."
A couple of weeks ago I did a search engine on myself and I found a couple things on the internet that embarrasses me but can't be blackmailed with it either. It has caused me to think twice about the internet.
posted on November 17, 2000 06:04:41 AM new
muse-flash~
I asked you:
----------------------------------
Did you email the bidders in closed auctions of other sellers? Did you email bidders in the closed auctions of **(user ID removed)**?
----------------------------------
And you replied:
----------------------------------
yes and yes
----------------------------------
You discussed being the wife of an ebaY employee, nobody asked you, you brought it up. You defended the practice of emailing the bidders of sellers you have accused in their closed auctions by quoting the auction interference rule.
If you look at my post again, I did not attack you at all. I stated the facts as you presented them without editorial. If you feel 'attacked' by virtue of the very actions you claim to have made, then you have only yourself to blame for that.
posted on November 17, 2000 06:36:20 AM new
Well, I have no use for either the lone patrol or any type of organized patrol. I had one such bother one of my auctions a couple of years ago, actually they wrote my bidders that the item was not authentic. Fortunately, my bidders were knowledgeable about the auction and knew it was a lie, and my bidders wrote me, but I had no proof, so I had a friend bid on the auction and they were immediately e-mailed by this person who turned out to be a competitor - we turned the e-mail over to eBay SafeHarbor, and sap they were suspended.
I have tons of repeat customers, and if I start to suspect interference by such a person or group, I'll have a friend bid and check it and then turn it over to eBay.
I'll go to PRIVATE auctions before putting up with outside interference.
We have a mess of these over at Yahoo, where they have taken it upon their holy selves to report all sorts of auctions as being in the wrong category and such and having the auctions canceled - what a pain. Can you believe this group on Yahoo considers any Nude, whether a famous painting, a status (like Angelo's David) as Adult Only material!!!!
Yahoo does little to nothing about such groups, they ignore then, and outside of being a pain, I ignore them too, I just repost the auction and go on.
posted on November 17, 2000 07:33:38 AM newToyRanch:
You don't see the problem with your opening statement in this thread?
Q. Did you email the bidders in closed auctions of other sellers? Did you email bidders in the closed auctions of **(user ID removed)**?
A. Yes, and yes
It's a big leap from "yes and yes" to claiming that the person said she had been "emailing the bidders of sellers accused by the Shill Detective netcops, warning them not to pay".
I don't agree with emailing bidders - but I don't agree with yellow journalism, either.
posted on November 17, 2000 07:48:41 AM new
Glenda~
Go back and read the beginning of that thread on ebay. Read the feedback of the person who started the thread, particularly the recent stuff. The seller STARTED that thread because muse-flash was emailing her bidders!
As far as the part about the 'Shill Buster' group, Muse is a member of that group, and if it was something she did outside of that group, then my apologies for that inaccuracy. The group does discuss and report accused shillers and I did make the leap to assume that it was part of the group effort and not a solo activity.
posted on November 17, 2000 08:03:24 AM new
If you look at yet another thread on the T&S board, called "FAKE ITEM, DO I TELL THE POOR SUCKERS BIDDING?", the practice of emailing bidders after the auction is endorsed by others as well. In this one, people assume they can make a judgement about the authenticity of an item by looking at the picture and then feel justified in emailing the bidders of another seller to warn them.
A couple of months ago, I had a toy AK-47 water gun from the 1950's advertised in an auction. I received an email from a 'helpful expert' telling me the water gun was NOT from the 1950's because AK-47's didn't go into manufacture until the 70's. WRONG! The AK-47 was first produced by Kalashnikov Arms in 1947. The AK-74 was first produced in 1974. THE '47 part IS the year it was first produced!!! And yet this guy went off emailing my bidders to tell them it was not what I said. Oh, and not only that, but I also had the counter display box with the date on it!
The 'helpful experts' don't KNOW and yet they make judgements for YOUR customers. I know there is a lot of misrepresentation on ebaY and I don't like it either, but these people do harm to innocent users and don't even know it.
posted on November 17, 2000 08:04:25 AM new
Ummmm...Pleease correct me if I am wrong but
Isn't there a little bit of untold history here?
Didn't Muse give you, Toy, a hard time one night on the EDA board after you confessed you had run to EZBoard management about posting user ids and email addresses ON A PRIVATE BOARD? Didn't she leave the EDA that night in disgust because you had done so and we, the members of the EDA were too understanding for her tolerance?
Do I reemmber that ocrrectly? Please tell me if I am wrong.
posted on November 17, 2000 08:13:02 AM new
Museflash wrote: "Toy, toy, toy......crediting statements to me that I never made really isn't good form - no matter *where* you're posting or how protective the forum's participants."
posted on November 17, 2000 08:13:28 AM new
I read the thread on eBay and it seemed quite obvious to me that Muse is emailing bidders on ended auctions where she "feels" shilling has taken place.
In the past eBay has considered this a form of "Auction Interference".
At least a couple of Safe Harbor reps in the past have decided that unless the seller has been paid, and the buyer has received the goods, the auction is still "open".
I know of 2 eBay users who were suspended for doing exactly what Muse is doing.
It would be interesting to get the current eBay definition of "open" with regards to auctions on their site.
posted on November 17, 2000 08:15:06 AM new
As I have said before, Toy Ranch now has a history of flooding the message boards with posts BEFORE he gets ALL his facts correct.
He is either inept, or a clever master of "spin" to slant the information to achieve HIS goals. I suspect it is the latter.
Glenda, "yellow journalism" is an accurate way of describing it.
I keep hearing the cries of "Wolf, wolf, wolf!" But they always turn out to be "working dogs"....
posted on November 17, 2000 08:30:04 AM new
isworeiwouldneverdothis~
You are mistaken. I told EZBoard that the site was full of email addresses and fully posted private emails in violation of EZBoard rules. Posting accusations and personal information and not even giving the 'accused' a chance to defend themself is wrong IMO, and posting it is against the rules of that board (and most boards).
And the board was password protected, but not 'private' at that time. As it was explained, the password was only so that administrators could view a list of those who visit and to enhance moderator powers on the forum. The password was free to be given out.
posted on November 17, 2000 08:30:55 AM new
Then, ToyRanch, you should have quoted more "background" in your report here, instead of only the direct quotes from the person you "interviewed." Because quoting only that teeny excerpt makes it look like you have made several large conclusions.
posted on November 17, 2000 08:42:23 AM new
Well Glenda, you are right, but I don't want to violate the CG's here and I really never have understood all of the rules about what can and cannot be quoted and what constitutes 'leading others away from the forum' and all that. I mean, if I could, I would post links, quotes, etc. etc. but then there are the AW rules and it's really hard to discuss some things without violating them.
So I explained where the thread is and since the title and subject of the thread is muse-flash's emails (and the emails of some others as well, leading to the assumption the group was involved), I gave less information, hoping that those who are interested would go to that thread and read for themselves. Until it was changed, the thread originator's AboutMe page listed 3 email addresses as the sources of emails sent to their bidders.
