posted on December 3, 2000 11:09:19 AM
Canvid13 - Maybe I'm missing something here but I read both of your links here and then I looked carefully at both your current feedback and the feedback you left. I can't help but think that your feedback problems were not the only reason that you were NARUed. The negative feedbacks you received started a few months after you registered but you amassed several hundred good feedbacks while your negative feedbacks seemed to come in spurts, especially about a year ago. You have 4 bad feedbacks in the last 6 months and coupled with your good feedback, should not be enough for you to be NARUed. The other observation that I have is that you tend to be flippant in your responses to negative feedback given you, using things like: "Tis the season" and "rock and roll". The main theme that seems to run through all your negative feedbacks is that people didn't want to wait forever for their items and you wanted to send them whenever you got around to it, usually more than a month after you received their money. Is there another reason that you were NARUed and then reinstated besides feedback?
[ edited by trumpetboy on Dec 3, 2000 11:11 AM ]
posted on December 3, 2000 11:18:42 AM
The story is told by the numbers!
Canvid13 keeps glossing over his feedback record. Yes, you hit bumps in the road, and yes, there are some unscrupulous users who will soil your feedback record---but make no mistake anout it, when you see so many users (many with otherwise perfect feedback records) complaining about one person.... well, if it looks like an apple, feels like an apple and tastes like an apple....guess what?
The story the numbers tell is that of a frustrated and angry individual who has trouble dealing with the public at large.
Also, this notion that Ebay has admitted their faults by reinststing his ID's makes me wonder whether they simply caved in to what must have been some very strongly worded legal threats. They probably just wanted to be rid of him.
[ edited by mindreader747 on Dec 3, 2000 11:21 AM ]
posted on December 3, 2000 11:32:53 AM
Thanks for the great comments.
Ebay at no time has chastised me or emailed me regarding my feedback record. I have a full file of emails from Ebay. This isn't about feedback.
Of the four alleged NPD's one was from someone who refused to ship to Canada. I simply hadn't read the little line saying that she didn't ship. My error for not reading that, but by her filing an NPD it counts as one of four for gaining a suspension.
She subsequently sold her item.
One was for an NPD where the seller had been paid, and shipped the item to me. Whether by error or non-error he filed for an NPD.
I recieved an email from Ebay when the NPD was filed and replied that the item had been paid for and recieved. They never bothered to clear it from my record.
One was for an item I simply had erred to pay on. I had bought over a hundred lots over a few weeks and simply messed up. The seller resold the item and NPD me.
I not nuts. I simply think there was gross human error on Ebay's part. I have emails from Safe Harbor telling me my account was still suspended even after it was reinstated. Basically the left hand doesn't know what the other five fingers and ten toes were doing?
That being said they have to be responsible for their errors in the same way that I have to be responsible for mine.
Of the four alleged NPD's one was from someone who refused to ship to Canada. I simply hadn't read the little line saying that she didn't ship. My error for not reading that, but by her filing an NPD it counts as one of four for gaining a suspension.
Ok, let's assume this is your first warning letter from ebay about being a NPB. Technically this falls into the "buyer failed to follow terms of sale" which STILL counts as a NPB.. even though attempted payment had been made. Seller had every right to file for NPB and ebay had every right to put give you a warning. *Seller should NOT have earned the retalitory negative FB that you gave her* It is immaterial that "She subsequently sold her item." The key is you cost her both the listing fee and the FV.
One was for an NPD where the seller had been paid, and shipped the item to me. Whether by error or non-error he filed for an NPD.
That must be the "Dishonest buyer refuses to pay for items that have already been sent." in your FB record.. correct?
I recieved an email from Ebay when the NPD was filed and replied that the item had been paid for and recieved. They never bothered to clear it from my record.
Did you provide ebay PROOF (canceled check, copy of cashed MO) that you paid for these items? If you just said "oh I paid for it" and ebay is suppose to remove it....... that's the easiest cop out for every NPB on ebay. If you did provide proof (canceled check, copy of cashed MO) then did you follow up with ebay, once they received it? Or did you just assume that they would clear it from your record.
One was for an item I simply had erred to pay on. I had bought over a hundred lots over a few weeks and simply messed up. The seller resold the item and NPD me.
You "erred to pay on" after 6 reminders and the NPB alert. You also gave that seller retalitory negative FB even though, you admit that this was your mistake?
This NPB alert is the 2nd that can't be contested.. the first would be the seller that you failed to follow the terms.. and now this one. That's 2 legitimate ones.
That still leaves 1 NPB alert unaccounted for..unless I counted your excuses incorrectly... because you have 4 negative FB's in your file for this. Not a single seller, that you supposedly paid, did a followup to the negative FB that you left.... nor did you do a followup to any of the retalitory negative FB's that you left on them.
You knew you had these warnings on your record because you received emails from ebay, each and every time someone filed against you.... but you only specify one that you questioned/contested. What about the rest? Or did the sellers go out of their way for you after you negged them.. and tell ebay that it was "just a misunderstanding"?
I'm sure we would all really like to hear how this works.. from your end.......... after all.. if you do take them to court... you will have to answer questions similiar to these.
posted on December 3, 2000 01:57:03 PM
Hi Rosiebud,
hmmm.....how did you get all your info??
You "erred to pay on" after 6 reminders and the NPB alert. You also gave that seller retalitory negative FB even though, you admit that this was your mistake?
Is that a quote??
Yes, I'll gladly share how this ends for good or bad.
posted on December 3, 2000 02:11:40 PM
Hello Canvid,
I'm not a lawyer but I have some experience with court actions and arbitrations.
Two points to keep in mind are that the process is extremely slow and extremely expensive.
In addition, when you are alleging that the other party has damaged your reputation you had better be squeaky clean because the defense will invariably revolve around your reputation.
AW has moderators to control the discussions and to keep them on point and non personal. Courts do not. Yes, there is a judge (and possibly a jury) but there are no strictures about not getting into personalities. You make your reputation an issue and you open everything about yourself to scrutiny by the other party.
Your feedback record would suggest that you are the very last type of client a lawyer would wish to represent in the type of action you are contemplating.
With your feedback record (right or wrong) you can hardly hold eBay responsible for not following it's procedures precisely.
posted on December 3, 2000 02:19:46 PM
canvid13 ~ well let's see, you have four negatives in your FB profile for non-payment. You've left negative FB for each one of those sellers...... and you said you've gotten four warnings from ebay for nonpayment.. is this correct?
If you're wanting to say, that those NPB notices from ebay, do not match up with the negative FB's in your profile.. then you've failed to pay for more auctions than you've said... or what is evident in your FB profile.
I think, that that the problem, that most of us have, is that you are making charges against Ebay.. claiming that they have done such and such to you........ yet you fail to provide accurate or detailed information, to those you want support from. We have to gather our information from you FB profile.. and the FB's that you've left for others. We have to gather our information from what/how we know ebay works (or doesn't work in some cases).
1) We know, for a fact, that when ebay shuts down auctions, they reimburse the listing fee.
2) We know, for a fact, that when a seller requests credit from ebay.. for nonpayment.. the buyer gets the "alert" and then the warning when the request goes through.
3) We know, for a fact, that in order to contest an NPB notice, either the seller has to contact ebay and say that they received payment..... or the buyer has to contact ebay and provide PROOF of payment.
4) We know, for a fact, that after X amount of non-payments the buyers account is suspended for X amount of time. (This is stated in the warning letters that ebay sends out)
5) We know, for a fact, that you have at least 4 NPB complaints against you.. as per your FB profile.. and we know, that if all these people, have requested credit from ebay, your account should be indefinitely suspended because after 4 warnings.. you're OUT.
6) We know, for a fact, that if one account has been NARUed for something along these lines, all accounts that the user has should be suspended as well (as per Safeharbor's own statements)
You claim to have been wrongly treated by ebay......... yet with what you're claiming ebay did to you does not go against the facts that we can witness and see for ourselves.
edited cuz I couldn't count the first time
[ edited by rosiebud on Dec 3, 2000 02:25 PM ]
posted on December 3, 2000 02:43:06 PM
ROSIE: If everything you claim is true why did Ebay reinstate both of my accounts this weekend??
CODE: Thanks for the very insightful advice. I agree with the rational but even if I had a horrible record Ebay has still failed and erred in the execution and application of its rules.
I'm still surprised they haven't tried to resolve this reasonably??
You contend that eBay has damaged your reputation.
If this went to a court, eBay would trot out your feedback record and if need be the sellers you stiffed to demonstrate that your reputation was already tarnished.
posted on December 3, 2000 02:48:13 PMHow is it that most users are able to manage many hundreds, if not thousands, of transactions without much of a hitch---meanwhile this guy has problem after problem after problem?
Strange.
He seems to be so dignified and cordial in this forum. Too bad he didn't afford many Ebay users that same courtesy.
There is no jury in the world that would side with this guy after getting a good look at his transaction record.
What a joke.
And wanting to sue Ebay for problems HE created is consistant with his obvious mentality. "The world is against me! I'll show them!"
Canvid13, if you really want to understand why you're in this situation, look inside yourself. Take a good look, if you can stand it.
[ edited by mindreader747 on Dec 3, 2000 02:51 PM ]
posted on December 3, 2000 02:48:28 PM
Another problem has been the lack of ability to communicate with Ebay. I called San Jose's information and Ebay isn't listed.
When I finally got Ebay's number and called them I was told that the folks in Safe Harbor don't accept phone calls, only emails.
At this point I asked for either an ombudsman or who/how to communicate the next level as the folks in Safe Harbor had botched this in the first place.
Ebay has set up a process so that only the most determined victim can get any help. The squeaky wheel getting a drop of oil.
Even when I called Ebay I was stuck on hold forever listening to a taped message encourage me to leave a message and buzz off!
Again, accountability is the issue here. Ebay made me accounatable without any due process. I am simply holding them responsible for their errors.
posted on December 3, 2000 02:49:24 PM
canvid13 ~ that's not something that we have the answers for. We do not know if you did provide proof to any of the NPB alerts...... you have not stated that you have or havenot. As I said, we can only go from what we can see for ourselves and based upon the knowledge that we have.
However, you have still failed to say how they have wronged you. How they monitarily harmed you. Or how they besmirched your reputation. (please see my first post in this thread). From what we can see, they haven't done any of those things.. therefore: No case.
posted on December 3, 2000 02:57:26 PMHow ironic...
How ironic that canvid13 wants this discussion to focus solely on the issue of accountability. Does he mean the same type of accountablility he assumed for transactions he entered into with other Ebay users?
How about accountablility for reckless feedback left in retaliation for negative feedback he received (yet another violation of Ebay rules).
posted on December 3, 2000 03:17:37 PM
If the accounts are reinstated (according to you), what does eBay owe you and how is your reputation tarnished? Someone looking at your auctions would have no idea you had troubles with ebay. On the other hand, they should check your feedback and avoid you anyway. The only people who know about this are the .000002% of eBay users who happened to read either of your threads, and none of us would deal with you anyway just from looking at your feedback.
[ edited by doninpa on Dec 3, 2000 03:19 PM ]
posted on December 3, 2000 03:49:55 PMIf you really want to sue the culprit responsible for your damaged reputation, you should sue canvi13. That's who got you all of the crummy feedback. That bastard!
posted on December 3, 2000 03:57:09 PMmindreader747
Your comments are a direct insult to the originator of this thread and I am issuing an informal warning. I strongly suggest you familiarise yourself with the Community Guidelines you agreed to abide by when registering at AW before posting again. To continue in this manner will result in the suspension of your posting privileges.
posted on December 3, 2000 04:12:02 PMmindreader747
Hyperbole or not, it's still an insult. of course, you are welcome to appeal the moderation decision by emailing [email protected]
Get a clue!
I've got plenty to spare so I'll offer this one to you. Re-read those Community Guidelines paying particularly close attention to the part about the premise of basic etiquette applying to all AuctionWatch members as well as AuctionWatch staff.
posted on December 3, 2000 06:28:14 PM
Wow, some folks need to cut down on the caffeine around here!(g)
Rosie, you definately sound like you work for Ebay. Not that that matters.
As for what Doninpa suggested: Ebay sends a notice to any seller or bidder involved when someone is naru'd. In my case it went out to bidders and sellers.
As for my feedback, of course, it's up to any responsible bidder to read it before deciding if it's safe to purchase from me or anyone. I know I do! I'd encourage them to do this. I also have 1600+ ratings on Amazon and my feedback is as horrible there. 4.7 out of 5 stars.
While not related to my issue with Ebay I'd like to answer this feedback question.
My policy is that feedback matters very little. I don't solicit it from my customers. I don't ask them why they never left it. However, I won't tolerate negative feedback unless I've deserved it. And sometimes even then if it's not accurate.
I don't use vulgarities, just specifics. In my experiance over 50% of NF's are left by new or inexperianced auction bidders. Most of the other half are by people who simply can't read or have less patience than my cat.
Maybe it's because I sell videos and that most of them are at a lower price point.
None of you have also noticed that I have never left NF for any NPD's of my own. I have never left NF for any of the sellers that have sold me counterfeit goods or items that never matched up to their description.
Nor will you see any NF for items which I bought which simply never arrived.
I use email. I contact folks and I walk away at a certain point.
As a bidder I'd never leave an NF because I know I'd get one back like the folks that have left me have recieved.
I could go on having sold over 5000 auctions since I have started selling online but I don't want to go on, and on, and on.
By all means email me at [email protected] if you have any questions regarding this subject but this message link is about Ebay's actions, not mine.
Thanks again for some interesting insights and opinions.
Even if nothing comes of this I hope some of us have learnt something. I know I have and will endeavor to treat customers and sellers a bit better!
The trouble with email sometimes is that people don't hear the tone in which something is said or written!
Ebay sends a notice to any seller or bidder involved when someone is naru'd. In my case it went out to bidders and sellers.
And this notice says why you're NARUed? Now if ebay stated, in this letter, that you're a weasel and you're being investigated for fraud ....... then yes, they would have tarnished your reputation. The letters don't say that do they? If they do, please produce it. Please produce it if the wording of the letter insinuates that you have been NARUed for nefarious reasons. You produce that then I'm sure that every single one of us would agree with you.
(moderators, this is just an example and is not to be construed as insulting)
But I've been involved in auctions where the bidder has been NARUed.. or the seller has been NARUed.. and the letter that I've received from ebay is a generic letter. Course the last time I was involved in one, was about a year ago.. so maybe ebay has taken a drastic turn in direction of libel or slander.
As far as FB is concerned, I'd like to know why you left negative FB for the sellers that negged you for non-payment.
However, I won't tolerate negative feedback unless I've deserved it.
I'd like to know why you left negative FB for the sellers that negged you for non-payment. Did you not deserve it?
but this message link is about Ebay's actions, not mine.
But ebay's actions were determined by your actions (or inactions) therefore they are relevant to this thread.
posted on December 4, 2000 12:01:48 AM
It's so funny to read this guy going on and on about what a great seller he is, "I could've had 5,000 auctions, blah, blah, blah"--or how about what a thoughtful feedback manager he is, "I don't leave NF's for this person or that person or under these circumstances, blah, blah, blah."
He's got all of these feedback rules and principals he lives by, and that's even in spite of the fact he doesn't put much weight in feedback!
It's funny, ALL of these claims and proclaimations STILL don't explain why he CANNOT MANAGE TO GET ALONG WITH OTHER USERS WHEN PROBLEMS ARISE! Especially considering he basically deals in the same Ebay world most of us do (non-feedback leaving people and all).
I guess in his mind, his record would only stink if he had 500 positives and 1,000 negs! I wonder even then what excuses would be tossed out.
A wise user knows that the story is not told as much by the positive comments as it is by the negative. WHY? Because the negative comments address how you handle problems that arise. Problems only occur periodically, this means the vast majority of users will have smooth transactions MOST of the time. When things don't go smoothly, THAT's when I want to see how things get handled. So, in short, a 95% positive feedback record is POOR. QUITE POOR.
FACT IS: If you've got more than 1 or even 2 negs per 400 positives, you haven't a clue how to operate smoothly. NOTHING he has said as an excuse is that extraordinary. NOTHING. We ALL have these same problems pop up, HE just can't deal with it.
You've got all of these problems, and ideas about suing. According to one of your users responses, you apparently threatened to sue them as well. Maybe if you spent as much time and energy trying to work transactions out as you do getting even in feedback and plotting lawsuits, you might have a more respectable record.
By the way, WHO CARES what your record is on Amazon? We all deal mostly with Ebay and somehow manage to get along.
[ edited by mindreader747 on Dec 4, 2000 12:53 AM ]
posted on December 4, 2000 07:15:39 AM
Hey Mindreader! Why don't you try and address the subject. We've all heard your opinion on feedback.
Reddeer: As far as feedback is concerned; I left NF for the sellers because they have either left feedback for me WITHOUT contacting me or the result of our communication.
Not that I'd suggest you spend the time looking it up but believe it or not I don't always leave retaliatory NF.
Again, I'd like to remind a few of you that what you're talking about is not on topic. By all means, start a thread of your own about my horrible feedback but this isn't what I'm trying to get at.
It's a shame that so few of you are actually discussing the ISSUE!!
As for being a great seller. I have never claimed to be a great seller, just one that's made a lot of sales. And I've never claimed to have any big code or set of rules. I tend to go with the flow. When you look at most feedback you basically only see 40-60% of sales. For me it's even less as I don't pander for feedback and I only leave it after it's been left for me.
I don't complain when I don't get any and as I've emailed a few folks, I was taught that if you have nothing nice to say shut up. (unless you're defending yourself)
Also, if you look at my feedback you will see where I quote that NF is an act of last resort. How many times have you seen some idiot leave NF because they typed in the wrong email address and were upset that they're emails weren't answered?
How many times have you seen NF because the other party couldn't be bothered to contact you if there was a problem either way?
There's more but I don't want to write a book here.
posted on December 4, 2000 07:42:07 AM
well.. it's my day off.. so I thought I'd look it up!
I don't always leave retaliatory NF
The only thing you haven't retaliated is a couple of neutrals and *maybe* a duplicate negative (ie: a customer has left you 2 negs and you only left them 1)......... otherwise, I'm afraid that you need to doublecheck your ebay feedback with the feedback that you've left on ebay because your assumption that you don't always leave retalitory negative FB is incorrect.
What exactly is the ISSUE of this thread? In your first post of this thread, you ask for people who have been "wrongly mistreated" by ebay. We are trying to find out exactly how ebay treated you. You are asking us to condemn and crucify ebay and take your word on everything. But yet, our research into your credibility has come up short. And yes, this is what the entire thing is about... credibility. Yours vs ebays. In order for us to see that ebay has treated you wrongly we need to weigh the credibility of both parties.
You also ask for donations, in your first post of this thread.. and you state that the donations will be gratiously accepted. Well, we're donating our time to *help* you see where your case is weak. If you can't convince us, then you're not going to be able to convince a judge, either in small claims court or in regular court.
posted on December 4, 2000 09:32:12 AM
Geez Rosie:
For you to claim that you've read through my stuff and ask the question you just did is kind of dim? It's clearly there in the first page of this stream.
I'm pasting it in so you won't have to go and reread it.
To encapsulate:
Ebay suspended my main account after 4 alleged NPD's. I recieved one warning to which I replied that the goods were recieved by me so that there was no way I couldn't have paid for them. The seller concurred.
After no reply I figured that it would be easier to go through the 30 day suspension than fight and research. I am a busy seller on other sites and was using Ebay predominantly to buy on.
While initially trying to fight the suspension they kept telling me my account wasn't suspended? I explained them that it was and finally after I explained to them my second account was active they suspeneded that one too! Even though there were no infractions.
After I appealed to Safe Harbor they reinstated the second account. I continued to use it.
Recently I listed over 20 auctions. I also was bidding on numerous items. Ebay suspended that account with no new infractions, emails or warning.
Emails were sent out to all bidders and sellers I was involved in.
After many emails and phone calls with Ebay they have now reinstated both accounts as it turned out that 3 of the 4 alleged NPD's were not accurate or following Ebay's own guidelines.
No apologies for my lost auctions, time, or money. Nothing about the time that my main account was suspended. Nada.
I issued them an email explaining that this wasn't satisfactory. I would write a press release and issue suit.
Ebay replied with an email with their legal department's mailing address ( I guess they get sued alot!).
At that point I have started this email thread.
And thanks for those that have discussed this.
The point isn't whether I'm Mr. Customer Service. What's happened to me can happen (and has) to anyone on Ebay.
Please continue this feed. I need all the help and advice I can get before I go fully public and take the first step.
I guess you can make mistakes too. I won't hold it against you even if you work for Ebay.
posted on December 4, 2000 09:58:22 AM
canvid13~ What about this quote from you then?
This is all about accountability. Mine, and Ebay's. Ebay has trashed my good name and I want to clear it.
That is from your second (?) post in this thread. I am addressing your accountability. I am addressing the fact that you stated "ebay trashed my good name". Those are quotes directly from you. Those are the issues that you have been brought up in this thread.
In order to prove that "ebay trashed my good name".. you have to provide proof that they did so. You have failed to provide that evidence. You have to provide proof that (this is not to be insulting) you had a good name and you no longer do .. due to ebay's actions. You can not prove that at this point, because that would call into question, your feedback record on ebay and any statements you have made concerning your feedback.
You claim you were wrongly mistreated. You claim ebay trashed your reputation. You claim that that is one of the main issues of this thread ......... so it's obvious that your reputation is one of the main issues of this thread. Your reputation is based upon your feedback... the feedback you've left.. and any statements concerning it.
We have asked you over and over again, to state how you have been monitarily harmed by ebay. We have asked you over and over again, to state how ebay trashed your reputation.. by providing the letters that ebay sent to your bidders and the sellers you were working with........... you have failed to provide these SIMPLE requests. Without providing them, we can't side with you. Without providing them, all we can do is look at your feedback and think.. "nope, ebay didn't do anything 'cuz this guy did it all on his own".
You're asking us to view a small area of the picture.. and it doesn't work that way.
I think that you are as off topic as anyone else posting here of late.
I suggest again that you give it up. It seems rather apparent that few folks are willing to help you pursue an action against eBay based on damage to your reputation.
