posted on February 15, 2001 01:18:11 PM new
Packer,
I understand your concerns and I share some of them. I've found over the years I've spent online that the claim of numerical data in the form of "volume" is usually exaggerated.
The truth is, very few people from the OAI community even know about ANY of these boards let alone post to them. Less than 5% of ALL online auction users frequent these boards. So, I don't let the numbers worry me too much. I just take a good hard look at the actual ideas. In the end, it's not these boards that will make or break any endeavor.
Personally, I really like the idea of a co-op of some kind. I like the idea of starting out smaller and really fine tuning a niche market of some sort. Picking a smaller target and hitting it dead center and more often that anyone else thought possible. BUT that means some folks will have to be excluded because small is small. Trying to be all things to all people is what eBay is failing to do. It's just too big a job.
I don't know what will come of all this talk. Maybe nothing but I do think there is something here, I just don't believe EVERYBODY can be realistically included yet. That's not what people want to hear but it's my opinion. So, I'll keep watching and see where things go. If I think I can really help at some point, I'll do it.
posted on February 15, 2001 01:33:10 PM new
I still haven't seen much that would make the co-op attractive for buyers.
I think Packer made some very insightful suggestions though.
1)Low opening - no reserve.
Although this approach wouldn't work for all sellers, it would be very easy to offer incentives that would encourage this type of listing -- special searches, reduced FVF if your item closes for 4 (or 5 or 10) times the opening, etc.
I think this would be very attractive to buyers. But if that proves to be the case, Ebay will quickly implement a similar system, negating the advantage.
2)Focus on collectors
Again, a good thought. But how do you do that? I think the biggest advantage for collectors -- particularly people who are collecting a "whole set" -- is having the highest number of listings. Classic chicken and egg problem. For the vast majority of collectibles, I can't imagine any site being competitive with Ebay in terms of number of items listed, much less superior.
3) Insure the intergrity of sellers.
Once again, an excellent idea, but I suspect that it is not feasible, unless you have some kind of screening process. And in that case, you will severly limit the number of sellers willing to go through the process.
What happens when someone posts an auction for 50 $1,000 laptops? Can the co-op afford to reimburse buyers if this happens once a month.
Moreover, if buyers do get burned on a site that promotes its integrity, the effects would be devestating.
These are all great ideas and really show some thinking from the buyer's perspective, but I just don't if they are workable in the real world.
One thing that I have noticed as a buyer is that feedback is virtually meaningless. We all know how reluctant people are to leave negs or neutrals. I think it would be very helpful to buyers if this could be addressed.
One suggestion that I would have is that after a certain time period (60 days or so) if feedback is not left, an automatic neutral with no comment is posted. I think this would give buyers the opportunity to really see what percentage of a seller's customers are truly satisfied.
[ edited by amalgamated2000 on Feb 15, 2001 01:35 PM ]
posted on February 15, 2001 02:05:57 PM new
outoftheblue,
Provide an online mall where the average seller can set up a personalized shop using the listings he or she already has on other sites. Buyers would come because they could easily shop auction sites all over the internet with one easy to use interface.
your idea seems more feasable than taking on a massive project like what is being proposed in these discussions.
posted on February 15, 2001 04:00:41 PM new
Hi All,
Just because an idea is more feasible doesn't mean it's the best way to go.
The fact is that big companies like ebay do the things they do because they predict the cause and effect.
They know that sellers would sqawk about fee hikes but would soon quiet down.
A sellers union? Good idea. We can still create a co-op though.
A seller's marketplace? Well, I still don't understand what the heck that idea is all about, but we still can have a co-op.
I don't think a co-op will ever replace ebay or even be bigger than ebay. What it will become is a viable option to Ebay and for profit auction houses.
Right now Ebay is basically a monopoly. It's a monopoly because we sellers have made it into one.
It has stability because it has funds to work with and those funds not only keep it alive but also allows it to raise funds to grow.
Let's use all the skills that us sellers possess and used to build ebay and build ourselves a place as good as ebay if not better!
posted on February 16, 2001 05:22:49 AM new
Hi guys. Just a couple small words...
I would list more if I paid commission only. This will allow a lower starting price.
Every site needs a "gimmick," to pull in bidders. Perhaps the daily winning bidders entered into a drawing for a specific item, or the item they "won"? This would make them true winners. Mastercard/Visa both run similar promotions.
Maybe give winning bidders points good on an item/premium? Tie this into feedback...bad feedback cancels or suspends points?
Might even look into tying in the auctions with free samples somehow. Sample packets of detergent offered randomly in clothing auctions as a banner, etc.
posted on February 16, 2001 05:56:39 AM new
canvid, Do you have your own forum where you are discussing this or just here on AW? You might build up more momentum for your ideas in forum where the co-op planners are in charge. Most likely Yahoo Clubs. I'm not saying you should not post here. Just that you could use something more than a thread.
posted on February 16, 2001 07:33:25 AM new
Canvid,
"Why on earth would I define something that a group of people are trying to build?"
Forgive me for harping on this but no idea was ever thought of by a committee. People do not think in a communal fashion. People think individually. They may discuss ideas communally but without some form of closure to discussion there is never any action.
Everybody is thinking about a co-op. How it would work, who it would benefit, how to start it up. And posting their thoughts here and elsewhere.
Ad nauseam if you ask me. It seems as though certain posters are more enamored of the idea of talking about a co-op than in proposing a specific plan and seeing if enough folks agree with that plan to actually make a start on implementing it.
_____________________________________________
I've been candid about what I would want in a co-op and why I won't be joining any of the current efforts to create a co-op. As a seller and as a buyer there is simply nothing in it for me.
Most everyone posting here in favor of a co-op insists that a co-op would get the eBay monkey off their backs.
I don't see eBay as the monkey on my back.
What is so all fired horrible about eBay that you feel the need for a co-op that would essentially compete with eBay?
You talk about how a co-op could reduce or eliminate listing fees. You can do that right now by abandoning all of the extra cost listing options, choosing 7 day auctions without reserve and a low starting bid to encourage bidders. All for a whopping 30 cents per auction.
You talk about how lower fees will allow you to start with lower bids and that will attract more bidders because you will be passing the "savings" in listing fees on to the bidders. Think about that for a moment. If you had a free listings co-op right now what savings would you be passing on to the buyers? 30 cents? Do you honestly think that 30 cents will make a difference to the buyers? I suppose it will if you sell items that only get a single bid.
You talk about how eBay is squeezing the little sellers. eBay isn't squeezing anyone nearly as hard as the USPS has done with its priority rate hikes. Nor is eBay squeezing anyone even remotely as hard as the increase in energy costs has squeezed the entire economy.
Why all the sturm und drang over eBay? It can't be because of the rate increases. What is really eating at you people? eBay's heavy handed grip on the online auction industry? Ad hoc, unwritten policies and sporadic enforcement? That has been a problem with eBay all along and you've dealt with it up to now. Or is everyone reading about the very few who fell afoul of eBay policies and have been very public (and naturally one sided) in their complaints and has gotten folks to thinking, "Am I next?"
The spamming and changes in notification preferences? Just delete the crap. It is easy enough to tell when it is unwanted garbage.
The deadbeats? I doubt that eBay shelters deadbeats because it thinks it makes more money by permitting them to remain on eBay. In fact, eBay's NPB policy is probably as good as you will ever see in an online auction and I challenge any of you to outline a workable co-op policy for handling deadbeats that doesn't essentially mimic eBay's policy.
I begin to think that most of the folks who post so much about wanting a co-op are really just venting their various frustrations. And in a few months, these people will be saying, "Well, we tried but we just couldn't get enough people to go along."
People don't just go along. They follow leaders. Do the planning committees for these nascent co-ops have leaders? Or has the discussion merely fragmented into smaller discussions that repeat endlessly without any recommendation for action?
posted on February 16, 2001 07:54:47 AM new
Remostpark: remostpark
posted on February 16, 2001 05:56:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
canvid, Do you have your own forum where you are discussing this or just here on AW? You might build up more momentum for your ideas in forum where the co-op planners are in charge. Most likely Yahoo Clubs. I'm not saying you should not post here. Just that you could use something more than a thread."
We have an ez message board but AW doesn't like Ez so we are not allowed to use a link. You can email me for the url.
Cathy also is about to launch our info website and is working on adding a message board to that.
We need some tech help!! If anyone can help her email at [email protected]
Thanks for all of the emails we recieved in the past week!
posted on February 16, 2001 08:42:59 AM new
The show was great last night and a needed break from
auctions!
RB- do you think I am not tired of the "all talk-no action" attitude that I see here. In my lifetime I have also helped unionize a shop and was a shop steward to a
group of peope with the same attitude. Complain- but don't DO anything- did I get tired of it? You betcha!But it needed done.That groundwork and precidents set
in grievance meetings still stand today. I chaired a Community Day fora Chamber of Commerce Group.I believe businesses should give back to the Community that supports them. Did I get even 100% support?
Nope! Was it frustrating to be criticized by the Un-Involved, "Sit Back and Show me when your done with the work and I may lend my valuable support" business owners? You betcha!But I believed and perservered.My choice.
Same here- I believe that we sellers should help ourselves. I will not be a manager of anything at this site. God willing, we will have someone who is paid to shoulder the burden and I will go back to listing auctions
and adding to my shop.My business is important.It pays the bills and feeds the cats!
I am not saying that there is no support here. I, from the bottom of my
heart, appreciate the suggestions being made. They are all being considered.
Criticism has it's place as well.Just let it be constructive. If there issomething you don't like- say why.
Packer- Please do put your money where your mouth is! That will be in the
future for a few groups looking at COOPs.Thank you for realizing the need
and acting for what is best for your business. It all boils down to
just that--what will prosper your business. If selling at eBay prospers
your buiness-you would be a fool not to list there. If selling at Bidville prospers your business- by all means list there. If giving money back to yourself at a COOP auction prospers your business- it is time to do
something about that too.
Coda- Not one person or auction site can be all things to all people.
There are problems that are inherent to RETAIL not just auctions.
We are all retailers whether we are cleaning out the attic and posting or buying widgets wholesale and our auctions are an online
shop for a full range of them.Retailers in B&M shops have theft,landlords,and a fickle customer base. Online you have fees and deadbeats.These are things inherent in selling online.If eBay makes money for you -
so sell there. The COOP is about being able to prosper yourself- GOOD BUSINESS.Yes there will be fees- I would be a fool to suggest otherwise!But those fees in a COOP venture- will directly benefit ME not a company or stockholders and I will be able to have a say where I want my money to go.I may not
always get my way- but I will have had the opportunity to voice an opinion and vote.
So you choose eBay or any other auction. A COOP wil be another choice in the near future for you to make.
I looked at the statistic that only 5% of sellers read or post here.I
was aware that we have to reach the non-AW sellers.Any suggestions?
Please continue with any suggestions for a HOOK. There are some good, well thought out ideas expressed. But there are more of them out there!
posted on February 16, 2001 08:21:15 PM new
There is now Links to the Co-Op Discussions on my website.
which is working once again if you veiwed my webpage before you may need to purge your browsers cache or hit the refreash button if it dont load on the frist try I had to move it to a new host.
Scroll down click the [u] Co-Op Central [/u] link you will find discussions on this online sellers Co-Operative dateing all the way back to 10/3/00 to the present with links to the build it discussion board.
I know my web site is not Auction watch competition so I think this indirect link to the Central Co-Op discussion board is not against any AW rules or anything.
posted on February 17, 2001 08:23:06 PM new
It took a couple of years to build ebaY, it tok a couple of years to build Yahoo (and they they decided to commit suicide) and it will take a coupe of years to build a successful auction co-op.
Those who are interested in building, will participate. Those who only interest/need is current sales will stay with ebaY. Those who want/need both current sales, but are looking to have a future platform where they can have a viable marketplace, will contuinue to list on ebaY and also help build the co-op.
The co-op is bigger than any individual. It is a community effort that will be by and for the community it will support. At this stage there are several groups working on the idea, and several might emerge, but hopefully they will be melded into one or two co-ops that will work for everyone who is interested.
I laugh everytime I see someone say that this was XXX's idea. This idea is as old as ebaY. I personally have been talking about it for two years, and I did not "think" of it. For quite a while I thought that if we could get diversity in the industry, competition going, then we would not need a c-op, but Yahoo has shown us exactly how well that course of action is going to work. diversity wonrt do it, but a co-op will.
I am a very determined and tenacious person. Though I can't predict that a co-op WILL be successful, I say that there WILL be a co-op, or a few co-ops - hopefully all working together for the good of the COMMUNITY. -Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
posted on February 17, 2001 09:08:05 PM new
Rosalinda
I agree 100% that the time is ripe for a COOP.I agree 100% that there will be a few proposals for one and that a few will make it live.I grew up in the 60's and 70's when COOPs were big.There are a few in the Pittsburgh area still surving today.
I particularly like this statement.
"Those who are interested in building, will participate. Those who only interest/need is
current sales will stay with ebaY. Those who want/need both current sales, but are
looking to have a future platform where they can have a viable marketplace, will
contuinue to list on ebaY and also help build the co-op."
I believe that the COOPs will be a base for some sellers and a secondary selling area for others.Personally,I don't believe in putting all of my eggs into one basket- I have an online shop, sell at eBay as well as a number of small sites.This works for me.
The idea of a seller's COOP - spending your money to directly better your business and working together to the benefit of the whole - is sound business practice.
In reality it will be a few working hard to build so later many will benefit from use. Bit unfair? The way of our world! I'm just glad that there are those willing to take a chance, because whoever actually forms a COOP- I will be a member!
With all the negative vibes that come from posts here- I am more than pleased to say that I did an unofficial marketing survey(my RW occupation in the past) of online sellers met by chance and it seems that the sellers outside of AW are ready even if voices here aren't. I was FLOORED that 100% said they were interested.About 75% gave me an email address for future information.Not saying they are waving cash- but that much dissatisfaction and interest is phenominal!!
posted on February 18, 2001 05:56:20 AM new
I think Rosalinda and Cathy are hitting the pulse that will make this movement turn into a reality and that is the real desire and need for a true alternative to Ebay and the status quo.
Now if we had a few more folks willing to help with the work.....
posted on February 18, 2001 07:16:08 AM new
hello all,
the concept of a coop is intriguing. I have not had a chance to read all the comments, sorry if my following comments are a repeat of whatever has been discussed on any of threads.
If a coop could reinvent the wheel, i.e. start a new auction site that better fulfilled the needs of sellers and buyers, I guess that could be wonderful. But, I see some sellers and buyers not agreeing about what is best and then another coop site would be needed to better serve their needs, then another site for the naysayers (sp?) would needed, and another...?
IMHO no site can be built that is everything to everybody. Is there really any difference between a group of sellers dissatisfied with eBay, Yahoo!, Amazon, etc..., from a group of sellers being dissatisfied with a coop site, how it is run, who runs it, what fees it has, or what features it provides or doesn't provide?
Back in the 1970's I was part of a large club. As a group, we represented tremendous buying power in my city, state and throughout a 5 state region. Business wanted our business, making it very simple for our club to ask for and receive significant discounts and benefits. As a club, businesses and organizations eagerly listened to us and made win/win changes or accommodations.
As many others who have become interested in a coop, I have some complaints with auction sites. What I have felt we need is a VOICE. We need to be heard, we know we've really been heard and we need to see some changes come about as the result of being heard. I wonder if some of he auction sites out there could listen to our voice and become the next best thing to our own coop site?
pcalton
Perry Calton [email protected]
http://www.pcalton.com
posted on February 18, 2001 07:26:45 AM new
Hi Perry,
Great post. Of course sites will listen. Some have suggested the mass email sent out by ebay this week has some reflection of what's been talked about so far regarding the co-op in its wording.
The fact is that if the threat or reality of the co-op dies these sites will have less incentive to deal with any sellers group!
Right now it's ebay or not much else. I don't mean any offense to any sites but the best of the others are either strong for certain categories, don't offer the same service, or just are wannabees.
A true alternative is much needed.
Perhaps you should consider joining up and being on one of our comitees??
posted on February 18, 2001 07:39:41 AM new
how do I get on a committee and how do the members communicate?
pcalton
Perry Calton [email protected]
http://www.pcalton.com
The Group that I am working with will be having a General Meeting online by the end of the week for people who have indicated they are willing to work in any of the areas of COOPs in general,tech, marketing, auctions, the newsletter or administration.We are waiting for ifo back from the NCBA and are working on a chair for the group who has the time and ability to organize the whole thing.
I will be putting an informational site online in the next few days. We are still working on some of the technical aspects of the site.
No Co-op will be perfect or the best auction for everyone.We are hoping to create an auction by the seller- for the seller. Simplistic- but the voice of the members will have to prevail.We are all so different from one another in personality and business needs that it is a real challenge to make something work a global basis.Based on the response we are getting-this is turning out to be something bigger than I ever dreamed.
We are currently also looking into reaching all those that don't read the Message boards.
posted on February 18, 2001 08:27:22 AM new
I beileve There Are existing auction sites out there that will be willing to work and deal with a large group of buyers and sellers.
How ever the Auction Co-op Needs get organized and become that large group no matter if there is in the works 50 different new and existing auction sites.
With out organizeing and forming this group as a whole its all just talk Its time for Real talk About Forming the Auction sellers Co-op the Co-op its self is not about Auction sites or money its about people people are buyers and sellers not auction sites The future WE are trying to improve is not in reality the Auction site but the future of the People that use them.
The Fact is we have already had more then 1 or 2 offers of Auction sites That are already on line Now as we speak.
But with out the unity of the people and The oraginzation of the group in to a Co-op an auction site is of little use.
We Need the people to form the comittees to get the mission statement, bylaws and other legal details all hammered out and get this Auction coop on paper makeing it a legal co-op -Union of auction sellers-buyers.
WE need small groups to work out what services the Co-op can offer its members, we need to Honestly discuss member ship fees not the petty bickering we have had so far as services do cost $$$ we need to be honest with each other member ship fees are nessary services cost money.
We need to stop talking about enough money in fees to start an auction site and start thinking enough of a fees to exist as a organiztion.
Once we have this Co-op organized if a 1000 auction site idea and existing site want to work with us at lest then there is a Auction Co-op to work with with rules and bylaws to fit these sites inside of.
posted on February 18, 2001 09:38:09 AM new
D-man-- I hate to keep just getting on here and saying I agree with other posts- But from Day ONE I have felt that COOP FIRST is what we need.
The numbers crunching for proposed costs is necessary though too. There is a difference between coming to people and saying- you can join the COOP for $10 when a $500 investment may be more in line with what we find out.THESE NUMBERS ARE JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD.How do we know without seeing what is out there? 1000 members might mean a $500 investment. 10,000 might mean a $50 investment!
Working together to get a core group to form a COOP is of PRIMARY IMPORTANCE!! If there are no numbers committed- there is no unionized group to have any pull!
To look at any offers of services or auctions from whomever can't be made until a "bargaining unit" is established. That is the COOP.
posted on February 18, 2001 10:35:41 AM new
pcalton and other we are now working on a Co-op info hub .
WE already have a list bot that all interest should sign up for we will be sending out info Through the email list also working on getting volenteers for a news letter.
I will make these e-mail avalable in the very near future .
in the near future we hope to be offering
co-opcenter sub domains so that interest people can set up there own about me co-op type web pages to introduce them selfs to the group.
will make these avalable as soon as we work out a few more details you would need to sign up for you own website or if you have one provide us with the URL to the about me co-op page you put togeather.
we are also hopeing to get the Email address of some one for each comittee that is forming so that you will be able to email the person of the comittee you are interested in.
I believe ToyRanch was looking for people interested in a fact finding comittee you might email him and see what you can do.
As you might know we already have a group of volenteers-Comittee working on the website or info hub maybe you want to voleteer to help with this contact cathy or jamie.
we already have the build it message board for all to comunicate at.
there are other Co-op Idea comeing but it will take help to get them all going volenteer help, to help with any thing includeing comittees will cost you no money just time and sweat equity in organizeing this effort and group.
you are welcome to start your own comittee or fact finding group contact jamie to let him know you arestarting so we have a list of comittees forming and dont have double comittees forming.
Right now we need one or more people interested in putting a co-Op news letter Togeather weekly, monthly what ever.
posted on February 18, 2001 11:56:58 AM new
Hi Folks,
We've seen some great posts here and on other boards and recieved some wonderful emails.
We will be finishing the committee forming process by the end of this coming week so if anyone is interested please check in at he message board or email for info.
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posted on February 18, 2001 05:02:16 PM new
Can't get to either site - even with a clear cache etc - Rosalinda
TAGnotes - daily email synopsis about the Online Auction Industry http://www.topica.com/lists/tagnotes
posted on February 18, 2001 05:08:54 PM new
dman3,
I'm sorry I had to delete your post with the link to a board that contained links to other message boards. This is a breach of the CG's and you will not be allowed to post it again.
