posted on February 18, 2001 08:11:51 AM new
Hi,
I just thought I would come her to vent, inform, explain and hopefully get some thoughts from all of you.
I was checking out different items on Ebay and I came across a small item in a dutch auction. This item is listed with a quantity of 500 and a price of .25 cents each. These little widget things sell in stores for $5.00-$19.95. It looks like the seller usually sells up to 100-200 of these at a pop. The killer was the shipping. $4.99 for the first little item and $1.99 for each additional one. Now, some of these buyers are bidding on 50 of these little widgets. That would only be $12.50 for the items. ($12.50 would be all the seller would have to pay a FVF on.) The seller is collecting an additional $102.25 in postage for these little things. I bet 50 of them could be sent for under $20.00 and that is an extremely generous guesstimate.
I contacted ebay with the information and asked them if that was allowed. Ebay came back saying that they reviewed the auction in question and they "have determined that the member involved has not violated any eBay rules." I just emailed Safeharbor back clarifying things. My email back to them was:
"So, just to verify this for my own use. I regularily list items at $21.00 to
start and lately have been selling them at $21.00 with the BIN feature.
Shipping on these little items is only $2.00. Do you mean I could list them
for $9.95 BIN and charge $13.00 shipping? That would save me money with
listing them AND on the final value fee. Please let me know since I am
anxiously awaiting this reply before I list the next batch of them."
Now, I am not asking this to get slammed from some of you more defensive sellers but just to find out what the rest of you think about this tactic of avoiding fees and Ebays stance on it.
posted on February 18, 2001 08:58:19 AM new
I wonder if this seller isn't the one who was posting on this forum very recently who sells his/her stuff super cheap and then fleeces the buyer on shipping...
In any case, it's a shame and I certainly wouldn't bid. That appears to be precisely what they are doing...Using a super low bid price to save on list fees & fvf fees then making more profit on ship costs.
posted on February 18, 2001 09:28:47 AM new
If you ever get an answer from eBay on your second note, I would love to see what it said. I cannot see me trying this, unless the extra money was labeled as a handling fee, because it just plain is a cheat to say something costs more to actually mail than it does. Handling fees are different. I usually do not charge a handling fee, but one wonders. Here is certainly a way of getting people to look at your auctionn as well as save money on final value fees. PLEASE POST EBAY'S ANSWER IF YOU GET ONE. THANKS
[ edited by grumteach on Feb 18, 2001 09:30 AM ]
posted on February 18, 2001 09:42:47 AM new
First of all, I can't stand cyber pigs !
So you are reporting this seller merely because you are jealous of his tactics ??
Why don't you focus on your own sales and leave those sellers alone !
If those people want to sell that way, LET THEM BE !!!
You already know ebay doesn't care, so do it yourself !
The negative feedbacks will catch up to those types of sellers and then people will not buy from them, so let it go and worry about your own business and not everyone else's.
A requirement of the AuctionWatch Community Guidelines is that you discuss the subject of the thread, not the individual. Please cease personal comments.
posted on February 18, 2001 10:12:49 AM new
You're really concerned for ebay aren't you? Ebay already responded that they don't see anything wrong, so why do you continue to persue this?
posted on February 18, 2001 10:24:53 AM new
Once again the junior Safe Harbor staffers drop the ball. What you've described here is exactly why Ebay has a policy dealing with inordinately high shipping fees--it's one way of avoiding Ebay fees. By keeping the final bid price down, and making his money off the shipping, this seller has found a very effect means of keeping Ebay's hands out of his pockets. Unfortunately, not all the Safe Harbor staffers are familiar with ALL the Ebay policies.
posted on February 18, 2001 10:32:39 AM new
$4.99 for shipping and handling for a small item isn't that unusual in the mail order industry. It appears to fall within the reasonable range in eBay's eyes, as well.
Bidders who disagree with the shipping and handling charges shouldn't bid. There are over 5 million things for sale on eBay- pick another.
Or if it's still a good value at the combined bid + shipping price, buy it!
posted on February 18, 2001 10:41:06 AM new
It makes it really hard, if not impossible, for those eBay sellers that follow the rules to compete with those that do not! I think you did the right thing by reporting this.
Also, this is why the general eBay buying population has begun to think they should be able to get something for practically nothing, which makes it harder for ALL eBay sellers who follow the rules to sell.
Previous threads have discussed the psychology of selling in which the shipping/handling often does not get figured into the equation by the buyer excited with the great find. That is exactly why this type of tactic works so well.
Every seller should be concerned with this and how it affects our sales in the long run.
Edited to say: I believe that the sellers who protest against reporting this sort of thing either - 1) use this sales tactic as well or 2) do not understand the big picture of how this negatively affects all sellers sales over time. JMO
posted on February 18, 2001 11:00:54 AM new
If buyers like to be sucked in for .25¢ and agree to the $4.95 s/h, I don't see what's wrong with satisfying those demands as a seller. If no one wants to buy from you because you do it the regular way, then obviously your selling tactics need to be changed. This is how the marketplace works. Swim or die.
Oxford- I don't know what rules you are talking about. Ebay said no rules were broken.
posted on February 18, 2001 11:05:06 AM new"Or if it's still a good value at the combined bid + shipping price, buy it!"
I live in a very remote area. Before finding online auctions, I had a difficult time finding things anywhere. The fact that I can sit in my home and buy something from 1/2 around the world and have it shipped to my front door is a fact I greatly appreciate!
It is probably one of the key factors in making online auctions so successful!
I always calculate the shipping in when deciding my maximum bid. I have paid shipping of $10.00 on items that arrived with postage less than 1/2 what was charged, but the item was perfect, just what I was looking for and still at a price (even counting the postage) I felt was unbelievable!
Do I worry that someone is ripping me off or avoiding fees? Actually no I do not. If I felt I was being ripped off, I would not bid. If I had thought eBay was being ripped off, I now know there will be someone to point it out to them. If eBay feels there is an infraction, they will do something about it I am sure.
A dutch auction seller has no way of knowing if 1000 items will go to 1000 individuals or if 1000 items will go to 2 individuals.
Did you consider emailing the seller and asking if you purchased 50 items would there be an additional break on the shipping or if you would indeed owe $102.50 in shipping?
posted on February 18, 2001 11:07:18 AM new
Quickdraw -
Whoever answered justbijou's original inquiry is, to put it bluntly, clueless. The rule that is being broken (and was put in place by ebay to ensure their own profit, but it also protects ethical sellers - i.e. the ones that don't make their profit through handling fees), is called "Fee Avoidance":
From Ebay's site:
Listing Techniques that circumvent eBay's fee structure
Users may not use systems or techniques to interfere with the proper working of the eBay site, which includes the circumvention of the eBay fees. Some examples include:
Listings with low bid prices, but unreasonably high shipping costs
Dutch Avoidance (see description below)
Selling an item that requires an additional purchase from the seller
Items offered for direct sale (not through eBay)
Catalog sales
Listings with an e-mail address or domain name in the title
Policy: These types of listings are not permitted and will be ended. The insertion fee will be automatically credited for that listing.
To report an item violating this policy, please click here:
posted on February 18, 2001 11:12:58 AM new
Justbijou -
You did the right thing. To report this auction to the correct people, use the url link I gave on my post above - it has a button to click to send this information to the right folks at eBay.
posted on February 18, 2001 11:14:03 AM newoxford-The original poster said he had contact eBay and received a reply back:
"I contacted ebay with the information and asked them if that was allowed. Ebay came back saying that they reviewed the auction in question and they "have determined that the member involved has not violated any eBay rules.""
Apparantly they do not feel $4.99 for S/H + $1.99 for each additional item is excessiveor fee avoidance in this case.
posted on February 18, 2001 11:21:01 AM new
A small item selling at .25 cents each with $4.99 S/H + $1.99 sure appears to be fee avoidance to me. As I said 2 posts up, I don't think the individual who answered justbijou's email was knowledgeable in this area. eBay is not known for consistently replying correctly.
Justbijou, if you do get a response from a second inquiry, please post it here - I am, and I think others are as well, very interested in what a second resource says about this auction. Thanks!
Barb
Edited to remove a redundant word.
[ edited by oxford on Feb 18, 2001 11:22 AM ]
posted on February 18, 2001 11:22:21 AM new
Thanks for the discussions. I think that this type of tactic does hurt all ebayers in the long run. Prices are going up, what cost less to list in the past now costs more. This is one way of getting around paying Ebays fees. The buyer might think they are getting a good deal on the one hand and on the other hand they are shocked to have to pay $100.00+ in shipping to get their $12.50 cent item. Sure they should read all the fine print but in this instance the seller has it listed as Fixed Shipping. The price of $4.99 fixed shipping is stated very prominently by the paying info and in another place it says $4.99 for the first item and $1.99 for each additional one. Yes, the seller was contacted and no, they will not give a price break on the shipping. Why should they? Basically they are selling the item for $5.24 for the first and $2.24 each extra one. If this is not a way around Ebays FVF system and listing fees then I do not know what is. I am waiting for the reply to my email and as soon as I get it I will post it to this thread.
Oxford, Sharkbaby, Grumteach, Thank you. I saw this the same way you did.
BTW, I checked out the bid history on the one item. It is something people tend to want in multiples, 7 bidders wanting 30, 50, 30, 4, 2, 40, and 6 each. That is a lot of money ($300.+) in shipping and a bare minimum in Final Value Fees.
Quickdraw29, yes, I am concerned for Ebay. I don't like the higher fees and I would like to know they might not be increasing anytime soon. However, if Sellers screw Ebay by getting around the system then things will change again.
I personally will not bid on an item that has a high "handling" fee. If I do bid on something with a handling fee then I definately figure that fee into the my high bid. No way will I pay a reasonable price for the item AND a high handling fee. The total for everything must come to the reasonable price total.
posted on February 18, 2001 11:37:28 AM new
Oxford - Thank you for the support link. I went ahead and sent off the same discussion through that link. I do believe that the person at safeharbor who answered my first email may have responded incorrectly. In reading the conditions of fee avoidence I do think this qualifies. I will post any and all responses I get from Ebay on this subject.
posted on February 18, 2001 11:41:15 AM new
So..if $4.99 was unreasonably high shipping charge for one item, what would be a reasonable shipping charge?
I don't think the ebay rep dropped any ball on this. Priority shipping for a 1 pound package is $3.20. $1.79 handling charge is not excessive. If the package will weigh more than 1 pound, the handling charge is even smaller.
Ebay's rules are "unreasonably high shipping" and as long as the shipping for an item falls within a normal range then it is not unreasonably high. The s/h on this item fell within the normal range.
I also don't see the seller fleecing the buyers either. Someone said the normal price for this item is $5-$19.95. A buyer who buys 50 of these would pay $114.25 or $2.28 each...or between $2.72 and $17.67 savings on each item....yup, the seller is fleecing someone (I'm just not sure WHO!)
posted on February 18, 2001 11:44:14 AM new
RE: "Listings with low bid prices, but unreasonably high shipping costs"
But who is to say what's unreasonable? Ebay reviewed the auction in question and signed off on it, that ought to be the end of discussion.
Here's the way I see it, if I had to pay someone to package and ship my stuff I would feel no moral qualms about including their salary in the S&H. Guess what? I do have to pay someone, me! It IS shipping AND Handling, not just shipping.
I sell a lot of books and usually charge a fixed shipping price, from what I can tell in the books category this is a fairly standard practice. My shipping charges are not 'unreasonable' but I do make a profit off of them. My charges are clearly stated in the auction, I'm not springing anything on the bidder and I'm not hiding anything from anyone. My bidders don't seem to have a problem with it and neither does eBay so what's the problem?
Some of the folks on this board act like charging anything above actual shipping is immoral!
PS I would never write eBay to tattle on someone unless I thought they were scamming somebody.
posted on February 18, 2001 11:49:59 AM new
memorywhole -
I am certainly not saying that there is anything wrong with a handling fee - IF it is to actually cover costs! I charge between 50 cents and 1.00 for packing material (depending on the item) in addition to actual postage costs.
The KEY word is profit - you should not be making a PROFIT with shipping/handling - both shipping and handling should be used to cover justified costs. You should break even at the end with these. Profit should be made on the item you are selling BEFORE shipping.
posted on February 18, 2001 11:58:06 AM new
Amy - "I also don't see the seller fleecing the buyers either. Someone said the normal price for this item is $5-$19.95. A buyer who buys 50 of these would pay $114.25 or $2.28 each...or between $2.72 and $17.67 savings on each item....yup, the seller is fleecing someone (I'm just not sure WHO!)"
My answer would be that it is EBAY who is getting fleeced. They in turn are the ones who will raise lising prices etc to make up for this kind of thing.
MemoryHole - "Some of the folks on this board act like charging anything above actual shipping is immoral!
PS I would never write eBay to tattle on someone unless I thought they were scamming somebody"
I don't have anything against charging a Reasonable Handling fee. I sell quite a bit (14 so far this week) of items that are fragile and get shipped out first class. I have to BUY boxes and packaging materials for them. I offer my buyers the option of First Class ($2.00) or Priority ($4.00) That is set up so that the first class fees will cover the materials and priority is set so that the packaging materials are covered. A big profit handling fee day for me is when I make a dime over the costs. I am definately not profiting from my shipping and handling fees. I make my money/profit selling the item.
Your second comment about tattling is just how you do business. I will notify Ebay if I see something is possibly wrong. That goes for buyers and sellers. Again, I do this to try to keep things honest for us and workable for Ebay. That is just how I do business.
posted on February 18, 2001 11:59:21 AM new
$4.99 shipping and handling is NOT unreasonable for ANY item, regardless of weight. Ebay's fee avoidance policy is ambigous at best.
Let's say a seller has a $300 ring listed on Ebay. She has quoted a fixed shipping charge of $4.99. If the auction ends at $150, the bidder got a great deal. Would you consider the $4.99 shipping/handling charge excessive? Probably not.
Now, let's say the same seller has a junk ring with a setting of the finest plastic. It's listed at $.25 with the same $4.99 shipping/handling charge. Is the S/H fee excessive? If so, why? It would cost maybe a buck or so less to ship the junk ring after insurance is factored in. There is still actual handling involved as well as materials, trips to the P.O., etc.
The bottom line is that shipping and handling fees are completely unrelated to the actual value of an item. It could (and often does) cost more to ship a $1 item than it does to ship a $100 item. The entire fee avoidance policy as it relates to S/H fees is unrealistic and unfair in the way it's enforced. The market should be the judge. If a bidder thinks the S/H is too high, she won't bid. It's really that simple.
posted on February 18, 2001 12:03:43 PM new
Hi - sure its easy to glance in at another's auctions...
but, unless they are hurting me, I don't need to be the gestapo of the block...
posted on February 18, 2001 12:14:42 PM new
Any time a person takes a loss or makes no $$ on the item they are selling, but makes a profit on the shipping/handling - it is pretty clearly fee avoidance.
Whether eBay will take a stance against it or not would likely depend upon HOW much profit they are making. With the fella selling the large number of widgets, the profit through shipping/handling made on the whole dutch auction is a good sum.
I DO believe that the individual from eBay that reviewed the auction did make an error.
This topic has reared its ugly head many times over the time I've been here, and it always divides into 2 groups - the sellers who practice this method of profitmaking and DON'T want to give it up as they pay no FVF on their profit; these sellers will try to justify what they do by all sorts of arguments that ultimately say "to heck with eBay's rules"
The second group are the sellers who go by eBays rules and try to make an honest profit on the item they sell, and pay the FVF due on that profit. It is pretty darn hard for these folks to succeed in an environment that condones fee avoidance and profits through shipping and handling. So I see nothing wrong with reporting those violations.
The arguments will continue until either everyone is flaunting the rules and all the ethical sellers leave, or all the profit-through-handling-charges sellers are forced through reporting to profit through their sales instead.
posted on February 18, 2001 12:29:09 PM new
thepriest -
If sellers don't police themselves as a group, noone else will! What everyone needs to understand is that every seller has an impact on the ebay environment as a whole and on the buying comunity as a whole. How many bidders does one bad seller drive away? I would guess those numbers are quite a few! How many people have those disgruntled buyers told to stay away from ebay? Exponentially, even more! Those are MY future bidders that no longer wish to buy on eBay or that never start.
There is a lot of sellers that say we shouldn't be concerned about how another seller runs his/her business. They think of each seller as a separate entity. If you really think about it though, we all represent ONE entity, and that is eBay. Buyers don't see each seller as a seperate store; if they get burned, they will turn away from ebay as a whole, not that individual seller.
On the other hand, in the B & M world, they would just turn away from that one store; they wouldn't boycot the whole mall or the entire downtown for a bad experience in one store! They will, however, be fearful to purchase anymore on eBay if they are burned by one or two sellers. Do you see the vast difference here?
If we don't start doing our own policing, eBay is going to end up being full of crooks, unethical sellers, sellers with awful customer service, etc, etc. All these things affect all of us!! It is getting to be that way now, and it is getting time to put a stop to it, or continue to lose sales and customers.
posted on February 18, 2001 12:45:40 PM new
justbijou
I just don't get it. Why on earth do people actually bid on an auction like that? Rather than turning the seller in, people should just not bid. That way, if the seller wants to continue selling his (or her) items he would have to change the way he does business. IT'S THAT SIMPLE!
If it is a good deal - Bid. If it's not a good deal - DON'T BID! Make the seller pay for being stupid.
Are American consumers really as retarded as they seem?
[ edited by outoftheblue on Feb 18, 2001 12:54 PM ]
posted on February 18, 2001 12:57:26 PM newand it always divides into 2 groups - the sellers who practice this method of profitmaking and DON'T want to give it up as they pay no FVF on their profit; these sellers will try to justify what they do by all sorts of arguments that ultimately say "to heck with eBay's rules"
The second group are the sellers who go by eBays rules and try to make an honest profit on the item they sell, and pay the FVF due on that profit. It is pretty darn hard for these folks to succeed in an environment that condones fee avoidance and profits through shipping and handling.
posted on February 18, 2001 01:07:25 PM new
Well, it was very easy to find the auction in discussion here. Maybe they need to overcharge for shipping (and pay less FVF's) to pay for their Andale charges!
For shipping, they also say they will be shipped by "UPS Ground or Post Office". I doubt they will be shipping by Priority Mail if using the USPS.
Oh, and just found this out. They have over 2100 feedbacks, and 42 NEGS.
NEGS say things like:
BUYER BEWARE!! Paid 3.95+1.10,rec'd no ins. & $.97postage,Profit on shipping $4.
Paid for Priority Mail 3.95---Sent First Class---97cents
PAID 8.20 4 SHIP, THEY PAID .76, GOUGED BY 7.44 NO REPLY NO REFUND/BEWARE - OUCH!!
And many negs are for taking over 1 month to receive the items.
No way would I bid from this guy - deal or no deal!
[ edited by ExecutiveGirl on Feb 18, 2001 01:12 PM ]
