posted on March 4, 2001 03:52:59 PM new
Dman, no one is saying that a co-op (or any auction site) doesn't need bidders. One point I am trying to make is that the good AND bad should be presented to potential members up front. I see a lot of talk about how this is "everyone's co-op" and this is good for everyone, and for that reason, people are getting the wrong idea. My own personal idea has been a site where sellers (not buyers) can get some relief from eBay's rising fees and unfriendly seller policies. Do we have to go back to square one? eBay is moving away from online auctions and into retail sales. The very people who built eBay are now being shown the door, via increased fees and other unfriendly policies such as banner ads designed to draw our customers off-site. I'm concerned with solving the problems faced by marginal sellers. Not people making $100K a year. Not sellers who sell an item or two a month. And not bidders who want to join a new "club." I'm talking about people who depend on eBay for their livelihood and have nowhere else to turn.
I'm not trying to blame you, Jamie or anyone for not presenting a clearer picture of your goals. I'm just saying that sugar-coating the idea of a co-op, without presenting all the facts (including the downside) will cause confusion later on. In all the pages and pages of posts, I've seen plenty about co-op benefits, but not one word about obligations.
I don't know what you guys are up to, but it seems like we're not even talking about the same kind of organization any more. As an outsider, it looks to me like you're talking about membership drives and asking people to invest money up front, but you haven't made it at all clear what you have in mind. I hope a sellers co-op will be more than just a club where everyone pays $10 and displays a little icon in their listings. We need a LOT more than that. Things are NOT getting better for online auction sellers.
One thing is predictable. Any talk of a co-op with reduced listing fees will attract the interest of some big sellers. Those people are already doing good business and could give a fig about co-op principles. They will have no interest in a co-op further than saving a few thousand dollars. Without trying to sound overly critical, those are usually the sellers who proclaim, "spend several million bucks on advertising, bring me the customers, and then I'll join your site." Why is anyone wasting time trying to convince them of the benefits of a co-op? What's needed is to stay on track and stop promising whatever anyone wants to hear.
posted on March 5, 2001 06:01:57 AM new
I've kept silent for the past couple of weeks on the co-op idea. It seemed that my posts were considered unnecessarily critical of the whole idea.
I come back to browse this topic and find that "thousands of folks have expressed interest." That sounds like a gross exaggeration to me.
I checked the Ezboard sites where I assume the discussions had migrated to. I find that one site, "Let's Build a Co-op" has 26 registered members. The other site, "Online Auction Sellers Cooperative" has 42 registered members. I assume that some folks are registered on both sites.
I see posts here that ask where and what the business plan is and replies that say the business plan is private. Why on Earth would the business plan for a co-op be kept private from folks considering joining such a co-op?
I see the same infighting (although at a much more civil level than before). I see the same lack of consensus among folks who hope to establish an organization that is based on consensus. I see the same vague generalities being bandied about. I see the same lack of leadership. The same posts to the effect that "I'm not making the decisions and I'm not responsible." The same cheerleading by a very few posters. The same pleas for folks to join up.
If so many folks are really interested in a co-op then why hasn't the war chest started to accumulate? Where are those thousands of $500, $100, $50 or $10 commitments from the people who want this idea to get off the ground and are willing to provide the necessary "seed" capital?
I have reluctantly reached the conclusion that my fears about this organization effort have come to pass.
I won't be posting to this topic any longer and I won't waste my limited time browsing a topic that I now consider nothing more than an exercise in futility.
posted on March 5, 2001 07:47:06 AM new
codasaurus
Have you also counted the names of people on the half dozzen or more other message boards the names in the co-op webpage guest books the number of email messages we all have been receiveing the discussion as well been takeing place not only in the message boards but in chat rooms and email.
As Far as any war chest Were not collecting Dollars from people willing to donate services and talents to help us research and find the fact and figures and legal help we need.
There was at frist talk of asking all Interested in building this co-op for $100 to be put in a trust till after a co-op was actually going or returned if a co-op never got off the ground , the $100 would some thought help make sure people were really interested in helping build the co-op.
Most felt the $100 was to much others felt it was wrong for a group that didnt exsit to ask for money this plan was scraped.
So there is no war chest the people pretty much decided against it, also now we have a lot of people interested but only a percentages who dedicate a daily effort.
As far as the message boards haveing 20 to 40 registered user there is two reasons many people were already registered with ezboard before these message boards were set up so they wont show as registered users in them numbers.
The reason post there are limited is that we have found many sellers want to help and discuss these topics in email and are more comfortable, some feel Ebay and its net cop like comunity are watching very close and fear talking in message boards might cause problems with there sales.
You see what looks like a lack of leadership but it really isnt what your really seeing is some of the people are working on the co-op from different areas now.
There is labelle who is working with a group on a co-op auction site for collectables and antiques she is not a leader of this some of the replys she is gave are out of frustration
have to remember people who are working at this for the last months havent only been working on this they been still keeping there online sales going and running there real lifes as well.
Jamie is working on the co-op in all ways but he is trying to also work out facts figure and costs of not only a co-op auction site he is also working on helping figure out how to get a co-op central website togeather with a message board chat room history of whats been going on he has also been working on spreading the word to sellers that dont use message boards
also he is working to keep the co-op in the public eye with a news story here and there.
As well Jamie Gets Emailed question and asked for opinion of Ideas other want to work on he is keeping track of who is working on what so he can direct others to the person working on the same Idea so they can work togeather rather then haveing two or more groups doing the same thing.
There is many other things happening as well we are working on a putting a news letter togeather which will keep all updated on whats happening we have a mailing list set up
people can join our mailing list from the co-op web page and signing the guest book or by going to my web page and adding your name to the co-op list bot.
There is really No secerts here includeing any business plan since this co-op has been discussed in public message board all over the net for over a year what will turn into a the terms of services and plans are here there and every where all interested have a say thats what the co-op is based on all will have voice.
A few people tried to get these discussion centralized but its not an easy task but I think we are getting there.
yes there is still Brickering going on and I think there always will be no matter how organized this Idea and group gets all our post and thoughts about the co-op are independant We dont email the group as to what I or anyone else might post each is one person with a voice in these matters.
And these are public boards everyone has a right weather they are for a Co-Op or they have there doubts to voice there opinion on the idea put out on them.
Anyone who ever thought or imagined that putting togeather a sellers co-op on public message boards where your promiseing every member a voice would be a happy buddy buddy utopia is sadly mistaken we many be trying to build this for all but these sellers are all still each others competition.
The problems with this Idea is it is being built buy sellers who are actively running auction and business some working full time job and have a life away from the computer as well all our time is limited in more then one way not just yours.
People will start seeing more things on this matter posted when they are avalable to see remeber this sis all being done on the net no member or interested partys have ever met in person or got togeather ever most dont even know others personally.
Bylaws and business plans take time to work out even if you start From basic out line of other working bylaws and plans these thing also can take up hundreds of pages and even after they are finished will take a long time to get posted anywhere.
We do have a set plan and goal our goal is a place for all Who are unhappy with fees and changes happening and all sellers who have already been displaced to have a home and place to market and sell there item fairly safely with out costing them more then they make a Co-Op of sellers and Auction site(s)
This includes all seller small and large who are already or will be in the future pushed out of the market ebay is trying to build.
posted on March 5, 2001 08:22:59 AM new
I'm getting confused about the direction that some suggest for the the co-op to take. Should it just be a union of sellers for the sake of lobbying, getting benefits and pulling together resources? I think that is teriffic, but are the marketing, and positioning of this co-op to be ignored? In other words, say once this co-op gets formed and we have succesfully pulled our resources together and are ready to go, what is going to draw the buyers to us and keep them there? Word of mouth gets shoppers there once, it doesn't mean they wil come back. So how does the co-op position itself? The co-op can't be just about sellers, we need to figure buyers into the equation during the business planning stages.
Anyway, with so many dotbombs recently, there are an abundance in seldom used internet equipment being auctioned off for pennies on the dollar. A $150,000 router went for $1,850. If this co-op needs such equipment, check out dovebid first.
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Mar 5, 2001 08:25 AM ]
posted on March 5, 2001 08:38:36 AM new
Wow! Thanks Quickdraw. You said something we've found out and is important. See, even you've found some common ground with us.
That there are many ways to create the co-op.
There's tons of equipment floating around out there from the dot bombs and there are tons of really good talent too. Certainly to meet the needs of the co-op at it's inception.
Folks! As far as Union of seller's go, that'd be wonderful. However if in a year from now there are no auction boards of any consequence for smaller sellers then it'd be pointless as we'd be marginalized.
Right now Ebay is king and we are all there in one way or another. That might not be the case in a year from now or less!
How many sellers have had to leave Ebay in the last six months due to higher Ebay fees, USPS hikes, AW new fees, etc? I bet a bunch and I bet some of these folks were really good sellers who simply were priced out of the market?
What about Yahoo sellers? And these free sites just won't be able to make it on banner ads and features either.
We need to plow all of this money we're paying Ebay into ourselves.
PS! We need help. We need folks to do some research and leg work. As DMAn said in his post we are all working on our own businesses as well as the co-op. My sales are down over 25% because I just am doing too much. So if you want to help build the co-op get your butts in gear!
And we want to see more of you in our live chats every Sunday night at 8PM EST
[ edited by canvid13 on Mar 5, 2001 08:41 AM ]
posted on March 5, 2001 08:53:30 AM new
If a Coop for ANYTHING could be created out of meaningless, uninformed, paranoid, airy, non-specific, Willy Loman-like bloviating swill, this "Coop" would be up and running, and one of the busiest in history...
Hey Jamie- why don't you (like you said before) just go away from public boards, and indulge your fantasies in private? I'm sorry to say that this is beginning to look like yet another attempt (and not a real skillful one at that) to reach into sellers' pockets, and come out with their money... I hope to hell that this isn't fraud in the making, but if it turns out to be, you won't have heard the last of me, bud, that I promise you.
posted on March 5, 2001 09:01:46 AM new
I Believe this will be both a union of sellers in a Co-operative.
Quickdraw29 you are Rught there is lots of very good Equipment out there that is well under Reatail prices at this time.
Which is one reason The start up of a coop auction site wont be as high or huge a cost as It would have been 1 to 3 years ago.
As far as how the Co-Op is going to place its self and market, a Board will need to be setup for marketing the Co-op and it market place.
I dont think no one is fighting the fact that members of a co-op will continue to sell from other Venues as long as they continue to get sales on that venue.
or that buyers will contiue to buy at them as long as they find what they are looking for.
on the other hand the one largest single venue most are getting these sales on is Changeing fast moveing toward biger interests over time the sale the people who dont sell or market new retail are going to drop off.
And buyers who are vintage and antique flea market type buyer will find little or less of what they need and want there.
We all feel that we Need now to build a Co-op auction site(s) now in the forming of a co-op because in 6 to 18 month the big venue all are useing now will be a mall built around a big groups of gaints like JC penny Disney Sears and other Anchor store sales and banners leading away our buyers to buy from them.
This new market place has been building for over a year now and with the anouncement of the agreement with fair market its only a matter of time before there Are millions of diplaceed sellers who will need a stable Home to sell there stuff online one that wont sell out to the gaints since it will be built as non-profit and non saleable not a .com or an IPO but a .org ran by its members.
This coop will need a marketing board and team either paid from out side or a group of members or a combination of both.
Much of the Co-op advertizeing wont require big $$ investments at frist it will be new and exciteing and lots of its media will be provided free in news anouncement and other places.
that dont mean we dont need to work out an advertizeing budget and plan for marketing any one with any marketing knowlege is invited to work on this part of the co-op.
posted on March 5, 2001 09:24:56 AM new
tentwentytwo,
Please take a step back. Your post to canvid13 is very close to the line. While we are trying to allow as much latitude as possible, rudeness is not necessary and will not be tolerated.
If you continue to post in this manner, a formal moderation call will be necessary.
posted on March 5, 2001 09:30:16 AM new
10/22 What is your problem??? If you don't like what we're working on then buzz off. Nobody is forcing you to join or help? Do you work for ebay or something? You have done nothing but criticize from moment one?
It's people like you who will end up causing the co-op to fail. And frankly that's very sad as this is for a lot of people.
Where on earth do you get any fraud theories from? Either you haven't read anything we've written or need some help!!
If I stop posting on AW it's because of cheap jack harrasment from folks like you.
I have spent a lot of time and money to this point working on a goal that helps myself and many others. I haven't seen you do one bit of work even after you were asked to.
If I was doing this just for my own gain I would simply work with a for profit site or start one of my own.
Fortunately I have a bit of vision and can see how this marketplace is evolving.
So if you don't want to help just get out of the way. Same goes for some of you other genuises!
posted on March 5, 2001 09:35:33 AM new
Hey Patty?
why don't you take the time to review these Canvid/Labelle threads. They are SELLING air in Auction Watch. They have presented ZERO to the Auction Community, and yet (directly AND indirectly) they persist in asking for support in terms of people's time (that's fine) AND money (THAT'S not fine). The asking for money part makes almost every post of theirs PURE SPAM. THIS is against AW TOS. CLEARLY. They are soliciting CASH, and even if they WERE even pretending to offer something in return, this has NO PLACE ON THIOS BOARD. PERIOD.
Consider what I'm posting rude or whatever, I think YOU PEOPLE need to take a step back and look at the reality of these posts, and what they have been saying AND ASKING FOR for MONTHS now.
To Jamie-
Your group is either incompetent or fraudulent or both. THAT'S my problem with it, and if AW chooses to do whatever because I'm pointing out the obviouis, SO BE IT. And by the way, as I said to you after I received your totally unwelcome PRIVATE email just now, DON'T YOU DARE SEND ME ANY PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE.
posted on March 5, 2001 09:37:31 AM new
tentwentytwo
I sure hope that "Willy Loman-like bloviating swill"
Is not a person attack on a poster here at AW or its not seen as adressing the person rather then the topic.
As I would hate to see anyone here lose there bloviating privillages on AW or get a verbal warning.
Pcalton as far as where the co-op is in being formed we are a right now a small group of actual Interested working members and A large group of people interested in seeing this Idea sucessed they post Ideas and site on the side line watching.
We at this time have a clear Idea of where we are heading with this and not looking at a short term solution but we are looking at where Online auctions are heading as far as 6 to 18 month in the future based on the news we are all hearing.
We are working on centralizeing discussion and chat on the continued forming of the Co-op
we are working on fact figure and cost for the starting of a co-op auction site.
We are working on building a net work of interested people who are already working and people still to come and a network that will help to spread the word about our organizing Co-Op.
We have alot of work yet to do and we feel a limited time to get there were not in a rush but feel that a window of 6 to 18 month to get all the pieces of the co-op in places is posiable.
we feel that is also the window of time that is left for small and large of flea market type items on Ebay before sales and buyer start falling off.
Jamie should be able to ad more detail to this for you.
posted on March 5, 2001 09:45:00 AM new
And Patty-
Here is a direct cut-and-paste of the body of an email I received from guess who AFTER I told him to CEASE sending me private messages. He gleaned my email addresss through Auction watch posts. he is now persisting in sending me private emails AFTER I told him to stop. The email was forwarded to both my ISP and his. THIS is also clearly against Auction Watch TOS.
Try to understand who you're dealing with.
Message follows-
<<<
Subj: Re: next
Date: 3/5/01 9:38:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
From:
To:
Hi,
Toerag. You don't give me orders! Don't worry though. You are not on my
list of folks I want to chat with.
posted on March 5, 2001 09:46:04 AM new
canvid13 and tentwentytwo,
Knock it off, now!
AuctionWatch is allowing one thread for the discussion of the co-op. If you two continue to bicker, I'll have to lock it and you won't be able to have the discussion on AW at all. I'm sure neither of you wants to see that happen.
Please do not ignore this post. You both are one post away from formal moderation, and this thread is in real danger of being locked.
posted on March 5, 2001 09:49:44 AM new
There is no soliciting CASH here at all.
or money from no one at all
we are not even soliciting or posting link any longer.
If you would just read you would see you would see the Ideas we are proposeing to the auction comunity.
If you were reading you would see there is more responding to these Idea in a postive way then in a negitive way.
these discussion have been on going over a year now not just at Auction watch and not just in ebay outlook.
Just sitting here in this thread putting down people and Idea will give you know Idea of the over all picture.
in fact just sitting nay saying will get you no where there is no fraud here selling Idea is not collecting dollars thoughts and Idea are still free to have and talk about.
Your claim of any Fruad is out of place !!! and may even boarder on being libelous.
posted on March 5, 2001 10:04:45 AM new
"Post the quote or apologize." You really push the envelope, dontcha. How many quotes would you like? Here are some recent ones.
-----------------------------------------
#1.
labelle
posted on March 3, 2001 07:09:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since asking for information is promotional-even though it hasn't been before on this board- I will just relist a revised first half of my post.
***Fees-fees-fees. They are a part of doing business. The question is whether you pay your fees to help someone buy another new Mercedes or pay those fees to help yourself.COOPs work for YOU-because they are you! ***
labelle
posted on March 3, 2001 07:46:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jwpc-Someone here said that only maybe 5% of eBay sellers even know about AW.I believe that.
I also agree that trying to organize all- or even 20% of the eBay sellers is impossible. But, I have been selling Vintage items for 20 years. I have done shows, set up at antique shows in malls, been in COOPs and have shops on and off-line. Antiquers are a pretty close group that know how to network about new shows or selling ideas. This smaller, niche COOP is a more realistic and do-able undertaking.
***We already are familiar with the pay a fee, work within the Coop and structured guidelines about what can be sold and how. A move to the internet for the antique COOP is a natural progression.Every weekend we are grouped at shows and are easily reachable without an AW post. ***
COOPs are not right for everyone- but our research shows that they are a viable, economic option.
labelle
posted on March 3, 2001 02:39:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PC- If anyone who is putting together a COOP is promising you the same level of immedeate sales that you may have with eBay - they are lying to you.
If a new COOP is not putting a LARGE spend on advertising into a projected budget- they are not worth the time to consider joining.
Ever hear of Target Marketing??
Actually the main asset that a COOP has is its members and their customer lists.If the COOP venture belongs to you and is a team effort- you as an individual have part of the burden to advertise the site. I said part- not all.The COOP corperation has the main responsibility- using your dollars wisely-getting as much bang for the buck as possible from the start.
IN MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION-there should be one price for those Charter ***Members in a COOp - who would be willing to start the COOP with their good faith investment. As the COOP progresses and becomes fruitful- that membership investment should be raised in price acccordingly for new members as set in the Bylaws. That way those who would like to climb onto the winning bandwagon later on can buy in at the higher price.As the value of a COOP increases-so should it's buy-in stock price.This way chance-takers benefit. ****
By the way- the Cooperative movement should have its own .coop designation for net sites later this year.A move the NCBA and ICA have lobbied for extensively.
labelle
posted on March 3, 2001 03:56:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, PC. Then I guess you are not a sharer or a joiner. Nothing wrong with that.Just be happy where you are and develop your business as you see fit.
Also expect to pay well to join any going concern- if you can even get in once it becomes successful. Because, by then, perhaps your money or input will not be needed or wanted.
It's always easy to put your money down on a sure thing.It takes a gambler with faith and imagination to take a step out in faith and work for an attainable goal.
You want facts and figures- go look for them yourself-work at it and you will find the same viability those of us who are working on this have.
labelle
posted on March 3, 2001 05:14:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tentwentytwo- have you not noticed that no one that is working on a business plan for ANY of the COOps is posting anything solid?
The reason being is that business plans are not for public consumption.They are confidential. They only are of interest to members of the COOP group.That potential group is being recruited .That potential group is being asked for input. No one will put out a half-baked effort. It is way too early.You know the old saying Rome wasn't built in a day.
PC-Joining any organization means you support that organization and its goals. If you see that sharing of a customer base- perhaps by supporting a mailing effort is beyond what your business concience will let you do- then you don't belong in that particular organization.This would be YOUR business choice-no body can force you to be something you aren't.So you keep looking for one you can fit into -if joining is your goal.Nope- you won't be a joiner or sharer in that first Coop. ***In turn when you decide that you want to be a member of a Coop that has perhaps proven to be worthy of your presence-Yep - I'd take your money- as long as you were willing to abide by the join and share rules there ***.But, I believe the point is moot.
PC- all I can say is we each make business decisions based on our individual needs.Coops just may not be a happy move for you.It doesn't mean your business won't prosper- just means that perhaps you are better suited to going it alone.
Cathy
---------------------------------------
There are MANY more, but I haven't the stomach for it.
Now excuse me, Moderators and everyone else, I need to go barf.
posted on March 5, 2001 10:08:35 AM new
None of these are solicitations!!
Again, either quote someone asking for funds or APOLOGIZE!!
And none are quotes from myself. Cathy is speaking for another group and guess what! We actually talk to each other and work with each other even though we are in different groups! We simply work on the things we have in common!
Different groups want a co-op. They are working in different ways to get there and this is AW's only presence for a quickly growing movement. One to which you have shown you don't belong.
So either post your quote or apologize to all of us!!
That's exactly what they are. Solicitations. Solicitations for CASH in the form of fees. And they sure AIN'T the only ones that have been posted here FOR MONTHS. Like ducks, if they look like they're asking for money, act like they're asking for money, and quack like they're asking for money, they're... asking for money!!! Now, fully knowing that I'll prolly have my posting "priviliges" suspended for this-
#1. DO NOT threaten me. You want to institute legal action, you clown, I'll send you the address of my lawyer.
#2. Go crawl back under the rock you first came out from under.
posted on March 5, 2001 10:31:55 AM new
None of them pieces of posts you have copied and pasted are ask for any Money from anyone they are Saying that once any co-op is formed and going there will be member ship fees and costs.
but no where are they asking for any money not even a penny all the cost there may be for research and work have been out of pocket of the people doing the studys and research.
if jamie or labelle or any other takes money out of there own pocket they are not frauding others and you cant willingly or unwillingly fraud your self .
posted on March 5, 2001 10:57:14 AM new
*heavy sigh*
10-22 had alot of inthusiasm(sp?)when this idea was first presented here on AW.
What the heck happened?
Never-mind...I think I know! A person can only take so many putdowns.
Here is 10-22's MISSION STATEMENT, only a couple of people bothered to make an effort to make one.
tentwentytwo:
Our mission is to create and maintain a person-to-person global trading marketplace which provides a level playing field for all who use it. We are dedicated to promoting a safe and vibrant venue for the economic and social enrichment of our unique community of individual sellers, small businesses, collectors, and all who enjoy the pleasure of people trading with people.
The Auction Co-op will provide Users an Auction site, and community associated with the site that is driven by their needs. It is the intention of the Co-op to divid the decision making power equally to ensure the interests of the community are protected, and to provide a fee/pricing structure for it that would be fair, reasonable, and competitive, yet substantial enough to provide funds for the continuing survival of the Coop.
All revenue generated by the co-op will be reinvested into the co-op in such a way that will best benefit the membership. This will include but not be limited to upgrades in equipment, additional support services, and advertising.
The Auction Co-op shall be self-supporting and will not accept outside advertisers or partnerships that would compete directly with any of its members.
The long range goals of the co-op include negotiating discount business services
for their members, such as Group Medical Insurance.
----------------------------------------
All specific references to what a "User" actually is (seller, buyer, or both) ommitted until there's a consensus).
I suggest you go back to the beginning, and get a GOOD workable MISSION STATEMENT hammered out, then get it presented to the people.
How in the heck do you expect sellers/buyers to get enthused when no one has said anything viable for weeks now.
If in fact there are a thousand interested bodies in this venture then where are they and what do they support?
If you(canvid) don't quit attacking people for their opinions you are going to find yourself standing ALONE.
tentwentytwo,
I'm sorry to see you go as I thought you had some really good ideas. However...there really hasn't been a lobby for money...unless you were asked in private for it.
Don't feel bad, as I have a written list of 10 really good people sitting here before me and none of them have been back either with the exception of dman.
dman,
I respect and like your ideas.
At this point I guess there is not much more to be said.
posted on March 5, 2001 11:11:21 AM new
Well, obviously this thread will be locked, I simply MUST put my 2c in. First of all the bickering is useless. I have spent two hours reading this thread from the beginning and bickering is certainly NOT what I am reading this thread for, geez, I'll go to the ebay chat boards if I need that form of entertainment.
I am primarily a seller, a disorganized one, running the "business" from three different locations. Shipping address is one place, three different warehouses, a full trunk of "merchandise", a comp at home, and two others running remotely. Sound confusing? Yes it is, and has caused some problems. I only have 880+ feedbacks, I also have 41 negs. I will add that 35 of the negs have been satisfactorily rectified.
Why would I volunteer this information? Well, it basically states what will happen if a TRUE co-op will do if it becomes a reality. It's confusing, it's a lot more paperwork, it's yet ANOTHER site to manage, another place to check, a new set of emails filling up my inbox, more time, more energy, and more headaches. Most sellers here may well agree that sitting on a site and waiting for things to get better is a grim business plan from their point of view. The plan I follow now, (and will after I move away from AW and completely change my listing system thanks to MORE fees) will be this:
List on ebay ALL items with only one relist. They don't sell? Move to Bidville and let them run forever, the amount of inventory I have will last a couple of years of plugging 300-400 new items a week. When Bidville collapses, or charges fees, as it almost certainly will, then I take my several thousand auctions I have accumulated somewhere else. A co-op is an interesting idea. I would be happy to join and fill the site up with merchandise. With over 250,000 items in stock right now, with a little work, I could fill the vacant categories up with at least 50 items in each. Not a problem. Let me know what you will need. My services are also available in marketing, webmastering, moderating, and CSR. Add my name to your list.
Here are the facts:
*Ebay is #1 and has NO competition whatsoever. They have the money, the stockholders, the business, the household name, the recognition, and the power and respect from the "corporate agenda". Guess what? We, the people who hope for $1000 or more a week on ebay are history.
*Everyone wants a piece of our action. Part of business. Joe Smith in Arkansas, with little or no education, designs a new tractor impliment, shows it to a friend, eventually John Deere patents it and makes several million. No work on Deere's part. Part of business. Joe Smith? Well, there's always that crop of potatoes next year...
*Online sales is a buyer's market. Buyers are smart. They realize if a start bid is too high, they wait a couple of weeks, until the price comes down, or another seller offers the SAME widget for $1.00 NR. Guess what. If I were a buyer, then I know what I would do.
*A seller's union? Good idea, but will never work. You think that JCPenney, Saks, and Sears will band together? I think not. It's called competition. For dealers like me, the only way I survive is by monitoring market trends on what's hot and what's not. Engineering manuals from the '50s hot? Nursing textbooks hot? Guess what will be on the auction block next week. Diversity is the key. If I were to specialize in something, my overhead for inventory would be much higher, and my sales would be lower. Cater to the masses, and they will come in droves.
*"cater to the masses" Why would they come to the co-op? There are certainly good points all over this thread on the do's and don'ts. Face it. There are more sellers than buyers. A Captain America #102 comic book used to be difficult to find. You would need to go to a show and ask around. Now? Look on ebay. There's at least six of them at 1/3 cat or less. Throw away the price guides, buy your inventory wisely and let the buyer decide what the market value is. If you don't want to spend $10 on the glass vase to sell at maybe $30 on ebay, DON'T! What's the point here? PROTECT THE BUYER. Peeps with 1000+ feedback will tell you you build a customer base, your items will sell, again and again.
I'm now rambling, the situation with EVERYONE charging something from my pocket is aggravating. I too have been spoiled by all the freebies.
Some points of mine that I might suggest?
SELLER's interest
Keep listing fees low or nonexistant with only a FVF, while also providing an inhouse CC account.
Create LOGICAL categories, don't have duplicate categories in Pottery/Glass, Collectibles and Antiques. Ebay's categories are ambiguous. More detailed categories would be very nice. Why group ALL dolls but barbies in one category. A doll collector can tell you what categories to sub into. This goes for the BUYER as well.
Keep away from reserves. Sellers...be fair. I have avoided bidding on an item MANY times due to a hidden reserve. It's not worth it. The buyer thinks that the seller wants full book, and is not getting a bargain. Hence, buyer does not bid.
BUYER's interest:
U-Pic has a VERY economical insurance plan. $1.10 for insurance? Come on now, that's ridiculous. $.35? Ok, more reasonable.
Guarantee ALL ITEMS. I do not agree with the reimbursement of shipping. That is an out-of-pocket cost for the seller and can be construed as punishment when he/she misses that tiny hairline crack on that Lladro piece. I do believe that the buyer has the right to return the item, even to the point of frivolity on their part. It IS difficult to buy something you can't completely see, touch, smell or feel.
Give POSTAL OPTIONS. Don't charge the flat rate of $5.00 or so PER ITEM. Be intelligent. Require sellers to combine items to save on shipping, give the customer a CHOICE even if it is between book rate, 1st class and priority. Buyer should ALWAYS have the option of insurance, not be required to purchase it.
I FULLY AGREE WITH BUYER INCENTIVES. I WILL PERSONALLY CONTRIBUTE ITEMS FOR GIVEAWAYS AND PROMOTIONS at no cost to the Co-op. You guys want to make this work? So be it.
ADDENDA:
QUIT FIGHTING. This business has gone beyond the realms of common sense, just what we need is accusations flying all over the place before anything gets started at all. I have been wrong before, so has EVERYONE else at some time in their life. Please be constructive, not destructive.
Sorry for the long and laborious 2c worth. Hey, at least you get a lot for 2c these days!
pnth
[email protected]
Paul and Dee
407-682-1529 (will change once large warehouse is purchased next week. Have to move THE WHOLE THING TO ONE CENTRAL LOCATION)
posted on March 5, 2001 11:32:39 AM new
Well Packer At this point I am not going to sit here and lement discuss or talk about a user who can not post comments because there privilages have been suspended.
So for me any discussions of them has ended as of now in favor of or against them.
How ever if you honestly read the threads and posts on AW you will find that Canvid is the fall guy he is the one who has taken all the heat for anything said or done in this matter he has even taken the heat for Ideas and words myself and other have posted.
Right now cavid is in the catbird seat and is the person all love to hate and attack.
of all the Idea and things canvid has posted they have not been just his Ideas he has taken the words and Idea of all interested and put them in to the proposals, plans and work sheets for this co-op.
Some of the very words in proposals and work sheets that have been posted here are made up of some of the very same idea many who are ripping them up have gave to us them selves.
This is all part of the process of building this type of organization.
everyone has gave the Ideas of what this co-op should be and what any mission statement should say its just a matter of getting the words in a form a majority can agree on.
This is why it seems we make no progress because for every step forword we make we must go back to step one to make prgress one more step farther forword again.
I dont think no one would rather we just take the step to write a mission statement post it on a board and say like it or not this is it this way or the highway.
Not that we cant a small working group of interested effort can create a small co-op after all where ever there is two or more agreeing there can form a organiztion.
heck some power sellers are big enough micro business to be there own co-op.
Lets not kill the messangers because the messages they are delivering are the messages you are sending out to be delivered.
posted on March 5, 2001 11:39:04 AM new
10-22, I'm sorry the way things turned out. Don't worry, you can do 30 days standing on your head. (Believe me, I know.)
Although there may have been no direct solicitation of funds in this forum, an early "membership drive" was part of the plan from the beginning. When Jamie first contacted me, he asked me to start a trust fund and collect money. Part of the reason was a "show of good faith" to demonstrate the seriousness of the people involved. I refused because I didn't want to be the one left holding an empty bag when hundreds or thousands of co-op "members" came looking for their $100. Although it has been shouted down again and again (with good reason, I believe), the idea keeps coming up. That is a fact. And yes, I can prove it.
I don't think anyone is objecting to a membership drive in due time. Heck, when we first started discussing this idea, people were waving $100 bills in our face and asking where to send the money. As I said before, I just didn't want to be the one holding the bag, while others spent the money on expensive lawyers and staff, without even a clear plan in place.
10-22, I sympathize with your position. I know you did research regarding the legal status of a co-op. I read your posts. In return, you were told, "It's people like you who will end up causing the co-op to fail.... So if you don't want to help just get out of the way." That kind of attitude is one reason I am no longer actively involved in building a co-op. I know that those who originally volunteered as planners also want no part in these shenanigans. But since the idea now seems dead in the water, I have resumed my part of the discussion.
I don't know what Jamie, Cathy and the rest are doing. Apparently, within their own group they can't reach a concensus either. I don't blame them for that. Organizing on this kind of large scale is a herculean effort. However, I have personally witnessed the attacks on anyone who had a different idea as to how things should proceed. By my reckoning, that's why support for the co-op has dwindled to nothing. Maybe Jamie can pull this off on his own. If not, at some point we will start picking up the pieces and try again. A sellers co-op is inevitable. It won't be stopped by the efforts of a few people.
posted on March 5, 2001 12:03:29 PM new
Membership drives are a neccessity for ANY NFP organization. However, a business plan is a necessity. There is a suggestion for start-up costs. The federal government has BILLIONS of dollars to fund .org and NFP organizations. Small business grants, and even no-interest loans are a wonderful avenue for funding, both on local, state and federal levels.
How much does the software REALLY cost to run a site such as we are suggesting? $50? $500? Look at millionauctionmarch.com. There are plenty of "niche" sites with software ALREADY in place, pay a licensing fee and let THEIR WMs build the site. Partnerships are VERY cool, especially if we are looking to unearth ebay, since they may well be burning the final bridges with fairmarket.
A STRONG point for buyers is to be able to browse MANY auction sites for their keywords from a central location. Yes, that means including Edeal, Bidbay, Bidville, etc, etc, with the option to partner. Partner with Hotbot or Lycos and see if there can be something of a partnership to be made there as well.
This year is going to be crucial for online dotbombs. The ONLY way for a new website to survive is by support from NUMEROUS avenues. The time is ripe to develop allies online in the business world.
What do we need to have a strong bargaining position, without the million-dollar funding required to fund a new website? Hmmm....customer database. Petitions, figures, stats, "WHY IS OUR SITE GOING TO BE BETTER". These are pretty easy things to appropriate with a little legwork. Invade the ebay chat boards with numerous screen names and PULL BUYERS AND SELLERS into our Co-op. Ebay can only kill so many at one time.
There are several good business plans outlined within this thread. I would like to see something specific. Perhaps even in outline form. That would be nice.
Got me going off now. I'll post more when I think of it.
Its your type of enthusiasm that gets people fired up and interested
Keep the ideas a coming, I like what you have said so far.
Me, I want an Auction Site alternative to eBay, I sell vintage & collectables and I start all my auctions with $1.00 NO RESERVE.
The fees are literally killing me on eBay.
The original CO-OP plan was for sellers to build our OWN NFP auction site for the BUYERS. And yes, I say buyers, because without the buyers there would be no need for the sellers.
You should read the first 2 threads to get an idea of where we thought we were going.
Whats being talked about now has no resembalence to that.
posted on March 5, 2001 12:54:17 PM new
Thanks. I'll read them in a bit. I have telephoned a friend at Honexxx.com who has expressed the interest in giving discounts for image hosting and their ENTIRE line of services for the displaced crowds from AW due to their fees, might be good to combine the two and offer this service with their help through the co-op. Yet another way to encourage sellers and buyers alike.
Problem I see here is too many services and sites only offering PORTIONS of a package that we as sellers would like to see. Andale.com has them all, but their fee infrastucture is a little verbose. Keep things simple, let the sellers do what they do best. SUPPORT the seller and buyer alike and you have a USER-FRIENDLY place to buy and sell with a relaxed atmosphere and hopefully not have several thousand links that need to load through pages.
Another suggestion:
Create demographical groups based on geographical location as fact-finding groups like the "Online Traders Union of Central Florida". Should not be a problem, and would cost next to nothing to entice membership. Run it like AA and take donations. Should more than take care of overhead.
Ultimately within the next two years, ebay will look dimmer and dimmer to the casual seller as well as the low-grade power seller. It happens. The only way to protect our small businesses and hobbies is to band together and do what was originally set out. Provide quality (or non-quality depending on your perspective) items at reasonable prices, and have fun. I remember I bought a Budweiser mug (yes, one of the highly collectible ones) at a local thrift store and it went to $250. That thrill is what keeps the seller shovelling items through the meat grinder.
A union (or co-op) is indeed inevitable. Between church and state, civil unrest, we can only speculate on the state of the union in future years, and for many people I know in the trading community, this is a livelihood. Unfortunate that the guy working until 3:00 AM on his computer to squeeze in another 10 items for the Sunday launch has absolutely NO power or say in the economics that he depends upon to survive. We all know that feeling. This country was founded on a principle of Democracy, and there is no reason that the process and business of online trading should be any different.
Will there be problems? You bet. Working together, however has ALWAYS been successful in solutions.
Let me go read these other threads.
pnth
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