posted on March 5, 2001 01:06:53 PM new
Its ok packer wasnt looking or exspecting anyone to agree With what I said
No one listen to or agrees with the little guy in these online auction matters.
That is why all these new fees are killing these sellers no one listens, thats me a little guy a little seller my sales on ebay or any other site arent big enough to make a spect the size of fly poo in the online auction world.
My 3 to 10 sales on ebay and my under $40 in fees a month I pay to ebay and the rest of the services I use to run my sales means nothing to any of them.
The online auction comunity has lost its honest business sense, and sense of honest and fair trade, sayings like take care of the pennies and the Dollars will take care of them self are true sayings from far wiser people then the people building the .com world if it were ever built on any such Ideals at all.
only makes sense that if $50 worth of my business spread over the net makes little to no difference Why should my .02 worth mean anything to anyone.
The greed of large and small .com company and large and medium sized dealers online will eat them alive.
You all Will find as you push the pennies aside the dollars to will start to crumb and fall away once the little guys are gone the sales for the big guys will dry up as well.
for many large sellers they believe ebay and other online auction services are unstopable but for me I see it much differently its our pennies built this city when they stop this city will crumb and with out a demolision crew.
all we need to do here is continue to agree to disagree and in a short time the only way most auction sellers will have to sell and advertize will be on personal web pages where they will get one or two sales a year if they are lucky and not all will even have that much because they dont have the know how to build such a thing or the will or want to, to do it them selfs and they dont have the will or the money to pay to have other to do it for them.
Lets just sit here in these chat threads and do nothing but complain and whine about how things are going.
I garentee you in two years there will be no #1 place for your little sales, there will be no payment services for the small seller that might be left out there there will be no auction managers services for them to use.
There more then likely wont even be any peope left out here to here the words I told you so.
To answer a few more questions. We have put out a work paper here on AW and on our message boards.
It's just a work paper and NONE of this is being forced on anyone. It's a collation of ideas from all the posts we had at that time.
Some of you obviously haven't read it. It answers some of your questions.
Hack away! And maybe some of you can help fix it and make it better?
Jamie
________________________________________
canvid13
posted on February 10, 2001 06:39:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi All,
This is purely a work paper. It is to be studied and then ripped apart and improved on. This is not an official document. I just want to make it clear and I really don't want it misquoted or miscontrued if we can help it.
First platform. Let's talk about these ideas!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, we’ve read some really good posts all over and have come up with a starting point to build a platform for the co-op. Nothing is being mandated. NOBODY IS ASKING YOU FOR MONEY. This is simply a working paper for us all to chew on. Please post your thoughts and ask questions if anything is unclear?
First off, the majority of the mail received supports a non-profit, non-saleable, one member one vote, and non-exclusive co-op.
The site should be well organized and that the people who live in the categories should have a major role in designing and governing each area.
That the site be well run by people who are paid to do so. If they are members that’s good too but they have to be qualified. We won’t have a stable site run purely by volunteers.
We need an initial amount of money to start, and a good flow of revenue to maintain the services and grow them.
And that the site needs to fill the needs of all members and not just the ones with the most resources or who have the most to gain from it. The fact is that $500.00 per month is more important to a single mom making some money to make ends meet than $100,000.00 dollars per month for a company like Disney.
That being said how can we build this??
Well, we have to do it in stages.
First stage is we need to get some people willing to commit some time to the building committee. We have to split up into smaller groups to tackle our first hurdles which are to set up the legal entity to be known as the co-op.
We need a budget committee to look at different financial models so we can come up with real numbers instead of ideas.
We need a committee to start to canvas publicity and spread the word of mouth and help build this grassroots movement.
And we need some people who can co-ordinate all of these skills.
I’ve read a few posts calling me a leader. I really am not, nor do I have any interest in running the co-op.
Once we get past the building I hope we can hire our own Meg Whitman! We will need someone that can help build this site as fast as possible and make sure we have enough resources.
Just because we will be non-profit doesn’t mean that we won’t be trying to make money to cover our needs. We are not going to be a charity and won’t be soliciting donations in any way other than our members helping to make this a reality.
THE NUMBERS SO FAR
We will be having a membership drive in the short future. We will be asking you the online community to submit your initiation fees to the co-op to be held in an account in trust. These funds will not be able to be accessed unless a co-op is in fact created. And if you vote against a co-op coming to be you will be able to have your money returned.
We will most likely have three areas to list with different degrees of membership.
The Corporate Area: This area is the place that Companies of large volume items will be able to list. It’s more of a commercial area or B to C.
Merchant Selling Zone: This is where most small companies and sellers list. There will be limitations to the number of auctions a company can list in any given category and in total.
The Flea Farm: This is purely an area for the smaller seller who is more into the experience of a flea market. No corporate or business listings will be allowed.
INITIATION FEES:
Fees will be one time. Figures are not written in stone as is anything else! This is only the starting point.
CORPORATE MEMBERSHIP: $500.00
MERCHANT SELLING ZONE: $100.00
THE FLEA FARM: $25.00
BIDDER’S GUILD: $10.00 (only able to particpate in the Bidder’s guild)
Each membership which will give you one vote in the co-op and the right to post in the categories related to each membership profile and particpate as a full member in all areas.
LISTING FEES
There will be monthly membership packages offered in addition to the option of simple list fees. List fees will be available to non-members. Members will only be able to list in the areas that they belong too. They may in certain circumstances be able to have more than one membership although they still will only have one vote.
CORPORATE: $250 per month for up to 3000 listings.
MERCHANT: $50 per month for up to 3000 listings
FLEA FARM: $10 per month for up to 1000 listings
Each extra listing or non-member listing will cost ten (10) cents.
Relists will be free and unlimited however will count against your monthly totals. This would be for members only.
FINAL VALUE FEES
This has been a much discussed area.
CORPORATE: Up to $100.00 sale lot, 4% $100 + 2.5%
MERCHANT: 3%
FLEA FARM: 4%
If these fees were adopted this would give us a warchest of between $50-100K to start and monthly revenues of between $30-40K per month which would pretty much get us on our way. And this would only be with a starting membership of 500-1000 sellers.
Again folks these are just figures that are here to start the discussion. The budget committee will revue all the numbers and make their own recommendations and anything done will have to be ratified by the membership.
The legal committee will have to verify how we can legally build the co-op to fit this or any design as there have been many super emails about the legalities to do what we want to do?
With this type of structure however I think we will address the needs of many different and diverse sellers, and bidders.
There’s a ton of work that needs to be done but let’s start talking to each other and posting all over. We need to spread the word.
posted on March 5, 2001 01:29:09 PM new
Again, the above ideas were from back then. We've learned a lot more since then!
Our refined work paper will be posted before the end of March. Help us build it.
There is an idea prevalent that it's up to me or our group to present something to all of you our fellow sellers.
That's not what building a co-operative is about. If you want a co-op just help! If you want to be boss, earn it. This isn't my co-op or dman's or anyone's.
Go to our message board or post here on AW. Anyone can start any thread. We only ask that it be repectful of others and I don't think that that's too much to ask.
If you want a certain platform or conduct. Make it happen.
If you want certain policies. Make it happen!
If you want the co-op non-exclusive. Make it happen!
I think you all get the point. This isn't rocket science!
If we want a co-op the only thing that can stop us, is us!
posted on March 5, 2001 02:12:11 PM new
LOL pnth,
How did you manage a post on that other thread? It was locked ages ago.
Good for you, but I see it has been locked again
AW decided which thread of the several that were open to stay open....this thread was it.
I agree a lot was lost when the other threads were lock and no longer in the minds eye.
Its still good reading. The ideas tossed around in those threads created alot of interest and volunteers.
Once our threads got locked interest dwindle ALOT.
Ya, there are about 3 other sights set up that tried to continue the discussion but it was a real pain jumping from sight to sight trying to see what you may have missed. And of couse the posters were'nt posting their ideas on each thread either.
Well, its time for me to go to my RLJ. Catch ya all later!
posted on March 5, 2001 02:12:46 PM new
Doggone it. They locked the other thread. Here's the CC from the other thread that was not able to be posted.
You should read the other posts in the forum here. I'm just getting started. It's inexplicable that corporate mentality has yet again pressured the "common folk" into a serious situation bordering on civil rights violations.
Enough rambling. For some of us who love the hobby of online trading, it's getting too expensive. For those of us who rely on this as a sole source of income, the bite is starting to be felt. For those of us who are intent on expanding our businesses to the internet, it's becoming a headache.
The bottom line to forming a co-op is that it will ultimately seek to dethrone ebay as a corporate monopoly. This is good. It will provide a platform for sellers to be able to sell their items HOW they see fit according to guidelines set forth. This is also very good.
I will email you after I finish fielding my other posts here on AW. I have read most of your previous posts over a large string of threads and I will certainly do more than my share of getting this off the ground. Am I looking for a position here? No. Not neccessarily. Seems to me that everyone can benefit here and not just the rich few. That's grounds enough for me to join forces. I too, have some "adequate" resources at my disposal, including a deep distaste for ebay and their continuing dedication to make money.
Is this about making money? Yes. I believe so. Is it about being fair? I hope so. Is this ultimately creating a better enviroment for small-timers? Yes, for now.
posted on March 5, 2001 02:26:33 PM new
Great post on the other thread Pnth. Check out our info site. You have to email me for it as AW doesn't want me to list it. Lots of info.
posted on March 5, 2001 02:31:54 PM new
Ok. Hello there Canvid. Yes, it is possible to circumvent the locking procedure. Now. There are the questions that will undoubtedly surface. I'll go first since I'm the newest to climb on board.
You mention three different areas. Problem here is how will the site be set up. Ebay's main site only has one area. How would the search engines locate particular items that may span all three areas. OR Did I misunderstand this? The areas are basically for membership only and all items will be integrated in the site? Are there actually going to be three different sites? (areas)
Need to identify exactly WHAT a Bidder's Guild is. $10 might be a little steep for someone wanting to buy my Snoopy figurine. This may be confusing to buyers. Confused buyers will not bid. Snowball effect....
What is to keep someone from joining the Merchant Area that really does belong in Corporate, I don't see figures for this.
Buyers will not want to visit three different areas. They want to browse their category, not browse three seperate categories and compare.
Pricing structure is fair. $.016 per listing on the high volume end is not bad at all for a merchant account.
Flea market and Merchant area should really be combined into one area. What should determine where a seller actually is pricewise is by how many items they are listing. Someone selling part-time per week 3-10 items may find $10 a month a bit daunting.
How much do we REALLY need in start up costs. A membership drive is good, but how many people are really willing to risk the plunge. If mom is trying to make ends meet, then shouldn't we be trying to help her out, and offset her fees until she gets her items to start selling? That is fair. Go by how people have been doing on their previous venues. There will need to be some exceptions to every rule. We are here to help, not go munching on wallets.
I'm no Meg, close, but not there, I'm not that good-looking....
However, I AM willing to spend some serious time on this and even willing to foot a travel expense to meet person to person and iron this out. I'll be watching this thread very closely.
Well things have changed since that first platform.
What we've started to do is speak to companies and see if they have interest in working with a group like ours. Believe it or not a few have actually seen the potential.
If we develop into serious competition to Ebay they have a lot of money to make from the co-op. I think $ for $ we'd invest more into our infrastructure as we don't have the profit motive as our bottom line.
We simply need to make a bit more money than it costs us to run. How much it costs us to run is what our membership mandate us to do.
If we want a full site with all the bells and whistles it would cost more to run than one with less?
The bidder's guild idea was simply that a co-op could develop a lot of benefits that could also apply to bidders.
There is no charge to bid or be a bidder.
The $10.00 suggestion was simply so that a bidder could join to recieve beneifits and have limited voting rights. Some folks simply want to bid on items, others may want a say in bidder relative issues or benefits?
The search engine has to be worked out.
I've got this crazy idea. If we have a successful membership drive we can take this to our potential business partners and ask them if they would like to help us develop and benefit. I think this would result in some very favorable situations for the co-op.
I've already spoken to two companies, one of which was very into what we are trying to do.
As for search engine I think the engine would cover all areas of the co-op and any sites that have arrangements with the co-op.
There's no reason why some niche sites can't partner with us at some point?
The idea is to organize niche areas within the co-op so that sellers of Antiques can successfully sell to people that want to buy antiques.
If you're looking in the antiques section you probably don't want to see a listing for BANNED SECRETS cd's?
More and more folks are using searches instead of browsing categories. We need to make browsing more interesting and I think our seller members have the answers to this. I know I will in the video/dvd section!
It's about working together yet still being able to do our own thing within the greater framework.
You're asking about listing fees for a co-op run auction site?
There's no way I'd pay higher fees than eBay to list my items at a new, small auction site with not a fraction of the bidders that eBay attracts. I'm in business to make money, not give it away. I can list for free at several sites with low traffic- don't know why I'd pay for the privilege. Sorry.
We're going to be throwing out a bunch of questions.
We are not coming out and saying that we would be charging this. It's not based solely on the co-op and we will post results on our website.
We are just surveying folks to help support some ideas and discussions. It'd be great though if you could try and answer the direction of the question??
posted on March 7, 2001 08:49:37 AM new
I think the first thing all sellers should be doing is databasing their buyer information. Me thinks it will be an extremely valuable resource in the not too distant future, especially if an alternative venue is planned.
posted on March 7, 2001 09:19:35 AM new
If you want an answer to your question, all you have to do is go to the Yahoo forum here on AW and see how sellers feel about listing fees for items that will most likely need multiple listings in order to sell.
posted on March 7, 2001 10:32:51 AM new
Hello Canvid,
I'll answer your question. Disregarding the actual numbers you have posted for the moment I would prefer Option A over Option B.
Why should the auction venue (in whatever form it is organized) get a percentage of the final value of an item? Because that's the way brick and mortar auction houses have traditionally operated?
In the online world, an auction that ends up at $10.00 potentially requires no more or less resources and services than an item that ends up at $1,000.00. So why should the venue get a percentage of either?
Do you see that the percentage arrangement is the driving motivation for eBay to shun the small time flea market style sellers in favor of big ticket sellers and large concerns that are essentially volume retail operations?
Oughten the fees model for an online auction site be that of the traditional classified ads business? Pay up front for the cost of advertising whatever it is you want to sell. The fee is based on the business' need to recoup its actual cost for the service it provides and to make a reasonable profit.
If any venture institutes a final value percentage fee structure then it is going to open itself to the same complaints that sellers now have about eBay. If a co-op does an FVF then the sellers of big ticket items are going to be bitching and moaning about the fact that an FVF is an unfair "tax" on them to support the small time sellers. After all, their $1,000 item didn't require any more of the co-op's resources than a flea marketer's $10.00 item.
_____________________________________________
Going to your actual numbers, as a seller I would not be in favor of either option. 50 cents to list an auction is very uncompetitive.
I sell cookie cutters. I generally list on eBay 3 cutters of the same design in a Dutch format with the starting bid at $3.00. No frills means that I pay eBay 30 cents. Assuming all 3 cutters are bought at the starting bid I pay eBay 45 cents in FVF. That's a total of 75 cents.
Yes, I could save at least a quarter by listing under your Option A and probably a good deal more since I wouldn't be constrained in the total number of cutters in my Dutch auction.
BUT... The cutters would have to sell. I know they will on eBay. Will they sell on another site?
So here are the dilemmas your question of the day has resulted in:
1) Sellers who float marginal items to see if there is interest probably prefer a small listing fee with an FVF. Your Option B.
2) Sellers who have big ticket items don't want to pay a hefty FVF to a venue that doesn't earn it. Your Option A.
3) Sellers (of all shapes and sizes) are not interested in listing with a site that doesn't give them some assurance that the customers will be there. Even if the site is completely free. It takes time to list auctions. Listing for free (or nearly free) will always draw sellers who are willing to list a few items to see if the market exists on the site. But they won't consistently list items that don't sell because they lose money in terms of the time they spend listing.
_____________________________________________
From an economic standpoint, it might be better to figure out what the co-op costs would be for a year's operation at a specified level of service and volume of listings.
This would be the co-op's budget and membership in the co-op would be based on the per auction cost. Sellers could join up for x number of listings at y cost per listing, non refundable.
If the co-op takes off, the money from additional listing fees would all go into upgrading the site to be able to handle the addtional volume at the specified service level.
After the first year, the cost per auction would be re-evaluated and adjusted as necessary.
_____________________________________________
The only way to succeed at what you are considering is to attract buyers and attract them quickly.
The only way to attract buyers is to have plenty of items at attractive prices.
The only way to have plenty of items at attractive prices is for sellers to be willing to sacrifice short term revenues and profit for the prospect of increased long term revenues and profit.
Until you get away from the idea that the co-op is first and foremost a way for you to have more control of your business, you will continue to hit a dead end. Just as Magazine_Guy has pointed out. A co-op has to be a viable economic alternative right now before most sellers will consider joining or using it.
You should be thinking more along the lines of how to compete with eBay in terms of the seller's profit motive than getting sidetracked with the "control" issues.
posted on March 7, 2001 12:41:25 PM new
Hi Codeasaurus:
I don't expect either option to be used. We are curiuos about the reactions from all and opinions.
As for fees, in the B&M auction world you pay a commission for a sale. When you sell a house you pay a commission. Whether your house sells for 50K or 500K. In theory the resources are the same.
We are looking at different financial models for a co-op and this is the best way to see what a slice of our potential market think.
I know it's odd as most companies don't do this!
The point is that to create and maintain a true alternative to ebay, one that can get results and stability it will take money. I don't think anyone in the co-op movement wants to create another Bidville, Snaprat, epier, etc.....
Today's question is simply a way of asking what people think?
Thanks for your answer. The results will be on our website and we will be posting questions every day or so.
posted on March 7, 2001 12:57:21 PM new
I belong to a couple of local co-ops. I did not help to start them or to set them up. When they opened I joined because the co-op would save me money to use. Only a joining fee and a yearly fee. Just enough to keep the co-op running not to make a profit. How can you possibly be expecting FVF at a co-op? It should be the same...joining fee and monthly fee based on number of auctions listed.Or per listing fee. What is the purpose of a FVF? I don't even see how you can be talking fees when you really have no true idea how much it will cost to run a co-op or how many users you will have to absorb the cost.
The fees you state are higher than what I pay Ebay. I would not pay a co-op more for less traffic.
It only takes a handful of people to start a co-op.Too many people in the mix will ruin it. Too many personalities. Set up your co-op. People will join or not.
I think some of you are missing the point?? We are looking for opinion's.
There are many kinds of co-ops. This sort, one which would have an online auction site will cost money to run. There are limited ways to collect this money.
All we are asking is to pick the option you would most likely choose. You aren't committing to anything.
For the essay writers out there please write them at our site. We have lots of threads where you can share your ideas.
The question is a straw poll. Help us help us all!
posted on March 7, 2001 01:11:48 PM new
I find it far easier to factor in FV costs for items that sell than to factor in listing costs for items that don't sell.
For that reason, I would lean towards the lower listing fees and higher FV fees.
If we limit listings , it may be possible to use free listing and only charge FV fees.
But a listing fee does place some limits on abusive redundant listings.
Let me reiterate - pulling our buyers from eBay is the key to this operation. If we can get a core of buyers moved to our own site, just the cross marketing between each other's buyer should help us all start making sales and building the site.
We would also need to bite the bullet for a few months and sell our items at bargain prices or even at a loss - I mean selling $1 bills for 90 cents. Once word got out of the deals at the site, it will pull more buyers in.
posted on March 7, 2001 01:20:59 PM new
And don't forget folks. Marketing isn't always about being the lowest priced? The experiance counts too.
Seller guidelines, an extremely organized site and buyers being able to find what they want count too! This is more about design and maintenance than anything else, and of course this will cost money.
If you truly want an alternative to Ebay it won't be for free!
posted on March 7, 2001 04:10:29 PM new
To be honest with you this question is a moot point if you want to know what sellers think of fees just read the post in the AW new fee threads and read the yahoo board.
Fees are a sore subject with sellers One thing stand out loud and clear seller can only pay fees if they sell the items they list.
Any Co-op will need to have a high volume of sellers with low flat monthly fees I can tell you now if you poll sellers about fees fact is they only want to pay on there sales not there listing.
posted on March 7, 2001 04:10:38 PM new
Given those two options, I would not list at all. I thought the whole point was to reduce fees, not feed the co-op. You're building in too may expenses. If done carefully, the co-op should be able to charge half of what eBay does. Before you budget several million dollars for advertising, etc., explore other options (federal grants, etc.). If you bill this as "a slightly cheaper eBay," no one will come.
My own suggestion. Ten cents per listing, no FVF. One free relist per item. Reasonable membership fees. Anything above that, I would probably not pay.
I've heard a majority of posters say they don't want FVFs. Jamie, are you listening?
You give two options, and then state, "this isn't an either/or situation." A better question to ask would be, "what fees and fee structure do you consider reasonable?"
posted on March 7, 2001 04:24:14 PM new
I found a site that can give you a pretty good idea of start-up costs for an auction site, coOp or otherwise. Take a look.
posted on March 7, 2001 04:25:05 PM new
Geez guys and gals!!!!! It's only a question!! There will be a new question every few days!!
We all know we don't want to pay any fees!!! But that simply won't work!
So if you want the questions posted in this thread please simply answer them or don't answer them. If you want to debate them go to our website or live chat!
(ps for you sensitive types, I'm not angry. It's just kinda funny the way so few of you feel unable to simply answer the straw poll question!)!!!!!!!!
What a group!
This topic is 9 pages long: 1new2new3new4new5new6new7new8new9new
