posted on March 12, 2001 04:13:54 AM
I bought the Planet of the Apes TV Series Set 4 Tapes, I received them on Saturday and they are copies of the 4 VCR tapes. I did email seller with some questions before the auction ended, but I did not specifically ask if these were Copies of tapes because I thought this wasn't allowed. Is this allowed?
edited for clarity
[ edited by betweenangels on Mar 12, 2001 04:14 AM ]
I am a video seller and I hate when I hear stories like this.
This seller should be banned from Ebay and any other site if it's clear that they are bootlegs.
This title hasn't been second market printed.
There are a lot of titles right now that are being copied.
If you see THE FINAL COUNTDOWN, LORD OF THE RINGS, CONVOY, and a bunch of others in clear boxes with a flimsy label then they are COUNTERFIET.
If you are bidding on a $100.00 video and the bidding is at $20 odds are that it's a fake.
Report it to the site and send the seller an email telling them that you know what they are up to!
Throw the book at these scum bags.
Also note, that some obscure titles have been second market printed. Not this title but the ones you can buy at Walmarts and even Amazon is now second market printing.
posted on March 12, 2001 05:56:13 AM
Second Market printing is when you see a non-studio company print an old movie or a tv movie and resell it on the market.
Amazon as an example, had MGM print 100 older titles for them that they are selling on Amazon for $8.00 brand new.
They are legal and have paid the rights holders a licence fee to reprint as opposed to a bootlegger.
posted on March 12, 2001 06:14:02 AM
Folks ... you obviously haven't been reading my posts about this problem
eBay will not, repeat WILL NOT do anything to these sellers. You can report them til the sun don't shine, but nothing will happen. During the past 6 months, I have reported numerous tv video bootleggers to eBay, and in some cases I have included the names, addresses, and telephone numbers of the copyright owners that eBay may contact in their "investigation".
Some of these sellers include statements in their descriptions like "I recorded these off tv and they are about a 7 quality". Others try to sell an issue of TV Guide with "bonus" tapes of the episodes. And then, to add copyright insult to copyright injury, some of them actually include a picture of the series that they have grabbed off the producer's website.
Unfortunately, there is no investigation done by eBay. They tell us they cannot possibly police their site, they ask for our help then they tell us "no thanks" when we offer it.
If you continue to push the issue with eBay, what they WILL do is send you a nice 'bot response telling you that they will only investigate if the copyright owner contacts them directly. Of course, by the time the copyright owner is notified and that person notifies eBay, the auction has ended, the bootlegger has made his profit, and eBay has pocketed the listing and selling fees.
And don't even suggest these copyright owners join the eBay VeRO program to protect their rights. This is a secret society where dues need to be paid to join. Why should an artist have to join this to protect his or her work???
In effect, eBay are profiting by KNOWINGLY allowing illegal video tapes to be sold on their site. This, IMHO, is not a whole lot different than abetting a criminal activity. I have gathered a ton of evidence that I will cheerfully turn over to some lawyer when enough people get fed up and decide to take eBay on.
I am willing to bet anyone that I could go to the eBay site right now, spend an hour or two there, and come up with hundreds of OBVIOUS bootlegs (not even including the clerverly worded ones). There are usually a few dozen running at any one time under the tv memorablia categories.
betweenangels ... sorry to hear that you are another victim. If you decide to go after the seller, just remember that your tapes plus your taping equipment could also be seized as "evidence". There's not much you can do except be careful next time
If it makes you feel any better, there are currently 13 listings on Yahoooooo right now for copies of The Sopranos Season 2 on tape. These are obviously home made copies of episodes that aired on tv (S2 has not been released commercially by HBO yet). Yahooooo also refuses to deal with this problem.
posted on March 12, 2001 06:39:54 AM
RB: Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the scum bags, but some stuff taped off of TV is Public Domain??
I have complained to Ebay about sellers who had transfered Anime to CD roms with bunches of totals and the same seller had bunches of this offering still on.
Yet, they removed my Pretty Baby listing which was a studio release!
Ebay and others obviously doesn't care too much about this.
posted on March 12, 2001 06:52:58 AM
LOL! Yeah! eBay cares SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much about 12yo Brooke Shields that they removed MY copy of Louis Malle's "Pretty Baby" also!
Who cares that this flick, which also starred Susan Sarandon, was a major studio release!
BTW: they left around 10 copies (being sold by POWERSELLERS!) up on auction to COMPLETION, even though I pointed out these auctions to eBay!
Basically, eBay is a joke & ya have to learn to laugh at them & just accept that they HAVE NO RULES EXCEPT FOR WHAT THEY MAKE-UP MOMEMT BY MOMENT!
Here is their rule about UNDERAGE NUDITY IN A VIDEO: "We will remove any and ALL auctions which contain UNDERAGE NUDITY which are brought to our attention UNLESS the seller is a POWERSELLER -- then we will do NOTHING because we are HYPOCRITES and don't want to P***-OFF our POWERSELLERS!"
Tom (MPG)
"Some days ya get the elevator; and some days ya get the SHAFT!"
edited by ME! soooooo; what does THAT tell ya?
[ edited by tomwiii on Mar 12, 2001 07:01 AM ]
posted on March 12, 2001 07:04:34 AM
canvid ... Yes, I am aware public domain material.
I am also aware that you are very knowledgeable in this field and I respect your opinion (I wish I could afford your product!!). I am curious - have you reported any bootleg tv to eBay, and if so, how have they responded to you?
A legit seller of public domain material will tell you that, either in the listing description or through an answer to your question. Over the years I have purchased 100's of public domain tv episodes from these sellers and I am delighted with the product I am getting.
For the layperson tv collector, ask questions. Be direct with questions like:
"Do you have written authorization to sell these tapes?"
"Will you provide such authorization to the winning bidder?"
"What is the source of your episodes?"
If you think the stuff is legit public domain material, ask questions like:
"What is the source of your episodes?"
"What speed have you dubbed them at?
"How many generations down from the original are they?"
"Do they include original commercials?" (there is a lot of viewing value here folks!)
If you don't get an answer, or you get the razzle-dazzle nonsense type answer, don't bid. Buyers are just as liable to prosecution as the sellers ... when the seller is caught, s/he must either name his/her sources and name all of his/her customers by name and address, or face a huge fine. Most sellers will rat out their buyers to avoid the fines. BE CAREFUL.
Chances are, if the series being sold is something that aired during the past 10 years (Sopranos, Buffy, West Wing, Spin City, etc.), it is not in the public domain. The sellers have either not read the warnings that are clearly shown during the end credits, or they have and they are fully aware that they are committing a crime. I wonder how many of these sleazy sellers realize that they are jeopardizing their buyers too?
posted on March 12, 2001 07:55:44 AM
canvid13 if MGM reprinted all these titles, wouldn't those copies be 'legal' copies to sell? I don't understand that part.
I understand about bootleg... copying movies yourself, or burning CDs. But a major studio like MGM? Are those legal to sell on ebay? [email protected]
posted on March 12, 2001 08:11:47 AM
NearTheSea ... yes, of course the MGM product is legal to sell
I haven't seen too many bootlegs of movies listed on eBay. What would be the point? Most movies can be ordered from the manufacturer at a cheaper price than the crooks want for them on eBay.
For example, I recently ordered these two movies through Roger's Video (Canadian prices):
ZULU - $14.99
Krakatoa East of Java (LBX) - $9.99
I have seen both of these (maybe copies?) listed on eBay for twice that (in US bucks!!)
Although many of the older movies may be hard to find, and you may have to wait for some of them (I waited 3 months for ZULU), most of them can eventually be found. If a movie is truly OOP, check the local pawn shops or post a request on a movie fan newsgroup.
The bootlegs that I have a problem with, and that are proliferating unmolested on all auction sites, are copies of television stuff. If you really need to see the first 2 seasons of "Charmed" and you can't get it on your channels, check the video tape trading groups. Many traders will be happy to make you SP 1st generation copies in trade for stuff that they cannot get in their areas. The quasi-lawyers will tell you that this is also illegal, and technically, it is. However, it has been discussed in a court of law and as long as money is not involved, us traders are pretty well left alone.
During the past 16 years, I have traded with folks from all over the world. I have just over 3600 tapes in my tv collection and I could make a gazillion bucks copying and selling episodes on eBay, Yahooooooo, and now BidVille. Ain't worth risking my collection for though
posted on March 12, 2001 08:29:50 AM
Wow, I posted this message this morning and couldn't believe all the responses I have gotten! Thank you! Well I used the buy it now feature for $55. I collect planet of the apes (its a kid thing!). The 4 tapes I received are all in black cases, with a planet of the apes computer printed picture, and each tape has a paper planet of the apes picture stuck on it. I saw where someone said my tapes and other stuff could be confiscated?? I am going to do something about this, even if it is just leaving a big FAT NEG, but I haven't even viewed the tapes, was just so disappointed to get these copies. Seller had all good feedback, no one mentioned anything about getting copies of his movies. So Sad.....live and learn I guess.
posted on March 12, 2001 08:43:26 AM
betweenangels-sorry to hear that
RB- I sell some DVD's now and then, and had an original copy (not bootleg) I went and checked all sources of DVD's; Amazon, Barnes and Noble, CD Now and many others before listing it, they all said it was out of print, or some said they could put it on a 'wish' list thing.
So, I listed it as OOP, I know a lot of people don't like to see that OOP in listings, but honestly, at the time, it wasn't anywhere to be found. I don't know about now. It was Easy Rider, and sealed DVD.
Got good money for it too.
I haven't looked lately, it could be all over now, but then it wasn't.
Is it that bad to put OOP (or Out of Print) in your listings..... does it turn people off? I do not use it, I did on the one DVD, but have others that Amazon says they don't have. (I usually check Amazon first)
BTW I liked Planet of the Apes movies, yeah it was a kid thing, but I still like the movies
posted on March 12, 2001 09:04:27 AM
I loved the movies! The comment-its a kid thing, meant me acting like a kid! I am just afraid to see what the tape quality is of these copied tapes!
posted on March 12, 2001 09:10:53 AM
NearTheSea ... I, personally, am not offended or turned off by the term "OOP". I know enough about this biz to make an educated guess as to whether it really is OOP, or where to check. I would be offended though if this term was used in an obvious effort to mislead a buyer and drive up the price.
I still cannot understand why so many auction buyers are willing to spend so much on DVDs and VHS tapes. The argument that they don't live near a city (the mall), or that they can't get out to shop is meaningless when you look at all of the on line stores that sell brand new DVDs and tapes cheaper than many that are listed on eBay. It's just as easy to click the "order" button as it is to click the "place a bid" button, and the chances of getting ripped off are much less.
There are, of course, truly rare vids (Canvid has mentioned a few above) that you are going to have to be prepared to spend big bucks to get (Capricorn One, for example in some formats and release dates). My advice? Buy from a reputable seller who answers your questions and backs up the product with a full guarantee.
betweenangels - although I am not a fan of feedback, in your case I can see a definite good reason to use it. Post a simple "illegal bootleg copies" against the seller. If nothing else, this may warn off other potential bidders to his/her junk. You may also want to file a complaint with SafeHarbour, although don't hold your breath waiting for a reply. Finally, send a copy of your SafeHarbour email to "[email protected]" and the series producer (usually listed in the end credits of the series).
btw, anyone else besides me looking forward to the new POTA movie?
posted on March 12, 2001 09:29:58 AM
tim99 ... my best advice is to ask the seller point blank: "What is the source of your copies, and are you authorized by the original copyright owner to sell copies?"
If the seller refuses to answer, don't bid. If the seller says s/he has authorization, ask to see it. Even if you can't determine if the authorization is real, at least you can argue that you made your purchase in good faith (and the seller will be in more ka-ka for forgery)
Most bootleggers won't respond.
Other than that, you can try to contact the original holder of the copyright ... but that can become a very frustrating exercise. That, by the way, is the reason why eBay won't act unless they hear from the owner - most people don't know how to look for the owner, and during their search, the auction ends and the fees are collected. It's the old money thing again
It seems to me that the sales of VHS tapes and DVD's make up a fairly large percentage of eBay's listings. Although eBay has written rules about selling copies of television episodes, promo tapes, etc., it is common knowledge that they do not enforce them, at least equally across the board as Tom suggests above. For example, according to the written eBay policy, each and every Emmy Consideration tape currently listed on their site is a "potentially infringing item" (I know that they all ARE infringing ... nothing "potential" about it!!).
Do a search uner "emmy video" - there's probably a couple hundred of them listed there right now. Then check this link:
This is the statement that really makes me wonder about the eBay lawyers who wrote this jibberish: "eBay policy does not specifically prohibit the listing of promotional items, but you should be aware that the listing of many such items is a copyright infringement".
So, list away but you're probably breaking the law!!
Maybe eBay should force all sellers to complete a form as part of the listing indicating the source, quality, and rights to sell the copies. That way, if a buyer gets stung, there could be some action taken by eBay to help the buyer out (fraudulent listing) and get the seller suspended.
posted on March 12, 2001 09:42:20 AM
RB: Thanks for your answer
I guess I am still a bit confused by some comments made in this thread. For example I believe you said:
Chances are, if the series being sold is something that aired during the past 10 years (Sopranos, Buffy, West Wing, Spin City, etc.), it is not in the public domain.
So is the reverse also true? Chances something 20 years old is PD? I guess my ignorance of copyright law clearly shows here.
What does this depend on? Age? Claim of artist? To muddied to explain?
posted on March 12, 2001 09:52:13 AM
tim99 ... you're not the only one
I don't think there is a pat answer. I think what Jamie (canvid) suggests can be used as a guideline though. Obviously, stuff like some of the early Disney works made before 1971 are protected. As a matter of fact, be extra careful when bidding on any Disney videos. They have spies all over the place and if you place a bid and win one of their tapes, you could be in big trouble
Again, if you see something that you want, ask some direct questions that are worded so that the seller has to give you a straight answer. If a seller is listing copies of stuff that is in the PD, and if that seller is legit, s/he'll be happy to answer all of your questions.
Unfortunately, due to AW CG's, I cannot post specifics here, but there are a few first class video tape sellers on eBay who are selling very nice copies of PD tv. Problem for me is I have been banished from eBay (it's a long story that involves video tapes!!), and most of these sellers will not ship outside the USA
posted on March 12, 2001 09:52:24 AM
RB Oh I agree! I see DVD's and Videos at the store that are always 'on sale'! and then
other places online where I can just buy it.
Already DVD's are about the same price comparably with Videos. I thought they were going to be much more, but they're not. So I have been slowly building a DVD collection, though I still buy video, not everything is on DVD yet. [email protected]
posted on March 12, 2001 10:15:22 AM
I sent the seller of my Planet of the apes tapes an email about my displeasure and that it wasn't legal to sell copied tapes. I received a reply from them:
You may send them back for a full refund, just for your info they were never
issued on tape officially this is the only way to get them.
But let me know, I will make you happy one way or another.
As soon as I got that email, I went to ebay and sent him an auction for the the Genuine Released Tapes that are out there for sale.
posted on March 12, 2001 10:24:50 AM
betweenangels ... this thief is really stupid - s/he has admitted to you that s/he is selling illegal copies
The fact that the owner may not have issued them commercially (maybe they have - my POTA eps are direct off airs that I taped for my own collection so I haven't looked around for commercial releases), does not make it any less illegal for someone to copy them and offer them for sale.
Assuming the seller is a 'he', you've got him by the short hairs now. Don't let go! Send a copy of your mail and his response to SafeHarbour and the MPAA. Perhaps he will get a registered letter from a Beverly Hills Law Firm ordering him to turn in his tapes and recording equipment and a suspension notice from eBay.
I love it when these sleaze get busted
NearTheSea ... I also have a good collection of DVDs. My first love is tv, and when I can get tv on DVD, I'm really delighted. I'm glad to see more and more tv stuff coming out on Region 1 DVD (the cult stuff available in the UK on region 2 DVD makes me drool!).
Here's another precaution when buying DVDs off eBay sellers ... make sure you are getting a genuine DVD. Many sellers are listing VCDs (Video Compact Disk) under the DVD category. They look just like DVD's, but the picture and sound quality is closer to a VHS tape. And, many of them are coming out of Asia (sub-titled in English), and many older DVD players will not play them.
Geez - I'm full of useless knowledge today
[ edited by RB on Mar 12, 2001 10:32 AM ]
posted on March 12, 2001 10:33:08 AM
Well, did any of yowse guys read my trouble I had with VHS copies over in the Yahoo thread?
I was floored! Bought two tapes from a VERY NICE seller & when they arrived -- they were home-made copies of rare foreign OOP videos! I had planned another coup on eBay (like my "REDNECK" victory) with these flicks; spent $30.00 for the pair & they turned out to be WORTHLESS!
Someone gave me grief about buying to resell! Doesn't everybody do that? Ya see an item that is way UNDERPRICED on eBay & start drooling?! I know I do!
I just bought an audiobook (NEW! UNOPENED!) for PEANUTS & I can't wait to put that sucker up!
TMALSS: the seller did refund 100% - so I didn't lose anything, except some drool!
edited because: "why not?"
[ edited by tomwiii on Mar 12, 2001 10:34 AM ]
posted on March 12, 2001 10:39:41 AM
Again, thanks RB.
Let me approach this from another angle.
Lets say I want to SELL some videos. Say I have all the Mr Ed's on VHS and I want to know if I can do it or not. I want to be ethical, how do I find out if I can?
This is just a hpypothetical BTW. Feel free to ignore me once I've asked one question too many, heh.
posted on March 12, 2001 10:52:05 AMRB: That's the way I think, too! I was really surprised at the poster who felt that since I was buying to re-sell, anything was fair that happened to me!
When one buys on eBay, I don't feel that there is any obligation (either moral or business ethical) to inform the seller that their price is STUPID!
Half of the fun is finding the gems that people don't recognize or are just too lazy to promote better!
