posted on March 14, 2001 03:26:48 PM new
I wanted to get rid of a Sega game a few weeks ago, so I posted it on E-Bay for 1.00 plus 5.00 shipping and handling. It was new....still sealed and had failed to sell at higher prices previously. well I got a bid on it...only 1 for the 1.00 plus s/h..and so I shipped it. now all of a sudden the buyer is raising hell saying it was a gift..and he wanted it least via priority...because he paid enough for that type of shipping. i've been called unethical...I believe for trying to make a profit..by shipping something media instead of priority..doesn't make sense....to me. Now the guy says if i don't refund his money..he's going to report it to e-bay....Am I wrong or is this just another ass hole..?
posted on March 14, 2001 03:56:51 PM new
This is why you need to very clearly state your terms in your auctions. I charge $3.30 for first class shipping. The actual postage is usually between $0.55 and $0.97. By the time you figure all the Ebay fees, Paypal fees, Auction management service (not AW anymore), website hosting, ISP, packaging materials, labels, toner, paper, labor, +,+,+ etc. it adds up to that $3.30 and then some.
As long as you very clearly state what method of shipping and what you are charging for it in your auction ads, the buyer has the option not to bid.
Next time use html in your listing and use font size 7 and bold print for your shipping and handling amount. This way there can be no possible argument later. I make the S&H amount as big as the title in my ads and haven't had any whiners since I started doing this.
He can report you to Ebay all day long. They will tell him that $5.00 is well within reason for shipping an item of that sort as long as you stated this in the auction ad.
posted on March 14, 2001 04:26:15 PM new
There are a few different ways to look at this, and most of them don't put you in a good light.
Yes, you did state your shipping and handling in your ad. If I won, and found out the actual shipping cost was under $2.00, I wouldn't feel very happy. But your terms were stated, and I bid. End of story, and you wouldn't hear from me.
In my thoughts, did you do anything wrong? No, although ebay might see this as fee avoidence.
But this is one of the main reasons people like me, who try to recover the actual cost of shipping and any shipping supplies with the words "shipping and handling" get a bad rap. You have taken unfair advantage of the word "handling" .
Did you do anything unethical?
In my opinion, yes. A seller should make the majority of the money off of the bid, not the shipping.
posted on March 14, 2001 04:47:06 PM new
You ripped him off on shipping. He didn't neg you. He e-mailed you~let you know he was mad and wanted his money back. Uh ___ yea he's the #*!@.
He didn't rip anyone off. He charged $5.00 S&H as he stated in his auction ad. Yes, I agree he could have clarified that shipping would be via Media Mail, but there was nothing wrong done here. As far as he knew the auction could have ended at $10 instead of $1, so the argument of fee avoidance doesn't fly here either.
As long as the s&h amount is stated in the auction ad, the bidder has the choice not to bid.
posted on March 14, 2001 05:30:52 PM newPLEASE Sellers: I don't care HOW you justify your 'handling' charge (Hell, I don't even care if you include a charge for, "the grief of giving up this wonderful widget".....JUST PLEASE:
1) Tell me what the total shipping and handling will be
AND
2) What method of shipping you are using. I need to know how long it will take to get the item into my hot little hands (either because I want it NOW or because it is to be a gift).
posted on March 14, 2001 06:18:44 PM new
jmh1948~ I only charge the actual postal cost and try to make money on the item. Didn't mean to sound that gruff but if you continue to charge 5 bucks for shipping and the package shows up with 1.68 on it - well I guess you will find more of these assholes.
posted on March 14, 2001 06:33:27 PM new
I probably would have been miffed at both you and myself. Myself for not asking and assuming that it would be shipped priority mail. You for not sending it priority mail when $5.00 is a ridiculous amount to pay for media mail shipping and handling.
I always consider the shipping into the amount I want to pay for an item. I bet alot of people do also. You may have received a better price on the item if you would have charged reasonable shipping and explained the terms better.
It is his right to contact ebay regarding this matter. The least ebay will do is the most they will do. Expect to hear nothing from them.
You should expect to receive a negative rating. If the two dollars or so is worth a negative, don't refund the money. I would explain the terms a little better in your future auctions.
posted on March 14, 2001 06:51:19 PM new
This is what happens when bidders don't ask questions BEFORE bidding. If the TOS stated that S&H was $5.00 than that's that. If the buyer assumed the $5.00 was for priority and it was important to them to have it within a certain time frame than they should have mentioned it. I was thinking about changing my TOS. Not that I have had any complaints (yet), but just to make it easier for bidders to get what they want.
WINNING BIDDER TO PAY SHIPPING, UNLESS THEY DON'T WANT TO.
PAYMENT SHOULD BE MADE EVENTUALLY.
I ACCEPT ANY FORM OF PAYMENT INCLUDING POKEMON CARDS, FOREIGN CURRENCY AND MAGIC BEANS. SORRY, NO COWS.
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME AS MANY TIMES AS NECESSARY SO I CAN REPEAT MYSELF TO YOU PERSONALLY SINCE YOU CAN'T READ MY DESCRIPTIONS AND TOS.
PLEASE BE PATIENT AS I AM ONLY ON LINE 23 1/2 HOURS A DAY.
posted on March 14, 2001 07:47:23 PM new
Will you get more or higher bids by offering an item for $1 and charge $5 S&H then you would if you start the bidding at $4.00 and state Media Mail $2.00 ? Is it because people are not paying attention to shipping charges or do they just think that a $1 bid is more attrative somehow?
I see the TV commercials where they break it down in 3 easy payments + shipping & handling and they are flashing $19.95 but it is really $72.50.
So it must work but what kind of buyers are attracted to that kind of marketing?
Maybe newbies go for that but an experienced ebayer sees it as $6 either way.
I want bidders with stars next to their name. And personally I would pass on your ad altogether to avoid
having to check with you about shipping methods.
You can charge whatever you want for S&H I'm just not sure this "gimmick" works.
Every ad should list shipping methods.
I shake my head everytime I see an ad that has several paragraphs of terms and conditions but doesn't list shipping charges or methods. Not being clear with the terms is deceptive, if you were not tring to be deceptive then you would have had no problem stating what they were really getting for their money: Media Mail-97 cents plus $4.03 Handling Charge.
posted on March 14, 2001 07:57:38 PM new
Well what the guy got...was a $20.00 computer program....for 6.00 including shipping...is that deceptive??????? I think not.
posted on March 14, 2001 08:07:29 PM new
Greed is thinking you are offering something for $1.00 and begrudging you making a few cents on the postage. You ARE doing this as a public service aren't you?
posted on March 14, 2001 09:36:48 PM new
Jim,
I thought you asked because you wanted to know what we think.
If you didn't intend to be deceptive ok but your stratagy of offering an item for a $1 opening bid and then making money on shipping charges didn't work. You ended up with one bidder who paid $1 and who ended up getting angry. You set the price of the item at $1 and then included a seperate charge of $5 for shipping. And then you think because you only got a dollar for the item the buyer should not begrudge you for clipping him on the shipping charge. If you had just stated Media Mail in the ad you could have saved yourself the grief. Of course, this bidder may not have bid had he known he was getting el cheapo shipping for his $5.
There is a big difference between Media and Priority Mail. It is routed and handled completely different by the post office. Priority (2 to 3 days)boxed, Media (4 to 30 days)envelope. There is a much greater chance of damage or loss sending Media. It is low Priority Mail.
It's like ordering beef from the menu for $20 and getting a hamburger.
You will run the risk of upsetting buyers
who feel misled.
ebay has run amock of sellers charging shiping fees that are way out of line. If it turns sellers off to ebay it hurts us all.
You are not making any more money by marketing your items this way.
posted on March 15, 2001 06:48:25 AM new
My $0.02:
You clearly stated that the $5.00 S&H also paid for your fees. If I am not mistaken, that is no legal on eBay and many other services. Shipping & Handling is that - for the shipping and boxes/time/etc to do it. It is *not* a way to pay for your fees.
Personally, I charge the actual cost only. I tend to only buy from sellers who do the same.
posted on March 15, 2001 06:52:36 AM new
...sounds familiar! LOL!
Did you do anything TECHNICALLY wrong? IMO, NO! You did state your shipping charge in the TOS &, if the buyer was THAT concerned about it, HE SHOULD have contacted you before bidding (deja vu all over again!)
HOWEVER, were you DECEPTIVE? OF COURSE YOU WERE & YOU KNOW IT & I KNOW IT & EVERYONE ELSE KNOWS IT!
posted on March 15, 2001 06:56:26 AM new
If I were this buyer, I wouldn't be upset by the charge for shipping, but I would be unhappy with the method used to ship.
Media Mail can take much longer to arrive, up to 3 weeks or longer, while First Class (or whatever the correct term is) would be much faster.
I've not shipped much via Media Mail, but I would never use it without notifying the buyer and giving them the option of picking another method.
posted on March 15, 2001 07:05:20 AM new
We do not sell in a bubble. There are many competitors out there selling our very same item - sometimes for less! I need to make my terms as clear and acceptable to bidders as I can, so that they select MY item over my competition.
As a buyer, I NEVER bid on items unless seller charges exact shipping fees only. Let's face it, if seller #1 charges media mail and ships media, and seller #2 charges blanket $5 fee without disclosing type of shipping, I go the cheapest route for the widget! Not all bidders know to compare, however. If terms are not listed in the auction, before I bid, I email seller with my zip code and ask "how much for shipping of this item to XXX". I DO NOT pay for shipping and handling - that is my choice as a buyer.
As a seller, I only charge exact shipping - buyer's choice of media, priority, insured, etc. In my end of auction notice, I try to list rates for all three and let the high bidder decide. He pays for whatever his choices are.
This all being said, the high bidder on the Sega game -- BID with his free will -- and did not ask prior to auction end what type of shipping was offered. The terms of the auction post are what govern this transaction. $5 shipping and handling was stated -- and he bid readily enough. If he did not want to pay $5 shipping, and wanted priority, he should have spoken up. I don't think he should be given a refund. Next time, he will read auction terms more closely. After it happens to you, you learn and move on! I now read every line of auction postings when I bid!
Final result of this exercise, though, is for jimh1948 to perhaps add in his future EOAs or more clearly state in his auctions that shipping will be media mail, etc.
posted on March 15, 2001 07:18:26 AM new
As long as you said shipping AND handling then you are in the clear.
Explain to him that S/H inclusedes postage and other costs (DO NOT GIVE Details)
Tell him that you are sure that the $5 S/H fee kept the bidding down. It would be unfair to other potential bidders to change this now because if you had said $2 S/H then more people would have bid on it.
posted on March 15, 2001 02:50:38 PM new
I agree. What is stated is contract!! There are many people that make most of their profits on auctions this way. You did nothing wrong stick to your guns and tell him that you sold it for your brother on mars who sent it to you to ship. thats why the cost was a little more than what really appears and why the $5.00 S&H charge was stated in the auction.
posted on March 15, 2001 07:01:45 PM new
If you bid on an auction, you agree to the terms...plain and simple...making threats afterward to report the seller to ebay will get you no-where, and it shouldn't...because you bid on the auction which means you are obligated to the terms of the auction. No grey area there.
posted on March 15, 2001 07:40:19 PM new
Nobody's perfect. Selling on ebay or other auction sites is a learning process. Don't beat yourself up from one bad experience. You were up front about the costs (outrageous or not) for the item and shipping. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't they have bid retractions on ebay in case someone changes their mind?
I notice many sellers who have low starting bids (like a penny!) and high shipping charges. I'm still trying to find what works for me. A lot of my friends are frustrated with selling on ebay as there are some bidders out there looking for high quality goods at garage sale prices and then want you to pay for shipping on top of that!
I wouldn't lose sleep over this buyer even if you get negative feedback. You get to respond and state he agreed to terms of sale yet chose not to contact you with his shipping method question prior to placing his bid. Likewise he didn't retract the bid.
Let all the positive feedback you have speak for itself. I know if I am buying on ebay or another auction site I don't begrudge sellers who make an occasional oopsie. The auctions where there isn't much feedback at all or what is there is mostly negative are the ones I avoid. Usually those sellers end up changing user names and emails to start fresh.
Keep us posted on what the bidder decides to do. Good luck!
posted on March 15, 2001 10:45:40 PM new
unknown: "DO NOT GIVE DETAILS"
pepsido: "...stick to your guns and tell him you sold the item for your brother on Mars who sent it to you to ship. that's what the extra cost was..."
Wow, now there's some classy advice for you!!! Is it any wonder that bidders break out in boils when they run up against people with absolutely no scruples trying to do business on ebay???!!! "Don't give him any details and then lie through your teeth to cover your @$$ !" Wow, I get more depressed every time I read these boards.
Integrity is at the core of any transaction. If you don't have it (seller or buyer), you don't deserve to be on ebay, a forum and a community that relies completely on trust.
Did the seller do anything technically outside the lines? No. Did the seller go far enough to represent his item and shipping terms to avoid this type of conflict? No. Should the seller expect problems to arise in a case like this? Absolutely!
gamecock -
In your post you stated a host of expenses you try to recover in what you call the shipping and "handling" category. You failed to mention many other costs associated with your "handling" of an ebay transaction: Lightbulbs for your desk lamp, wear and tear on your eyeballs from staring into your computer screen, food to replenish the calories you burn trying to separate unwieldy packing tape from a piece of bubble plastic, wardrobe expenses for having to actually get dressed to leave the house to go to the post office, and the list goes on and on.
This topic always gets my blood boiling, and if anyone is interested in checking out a lively debate thread on this subject of sellers padding "handling" fees to recoup their expenses for doing business, please check out the thread entitled, "WAYS TO GET AROUND THE FVF AND .05" posted by Maxrebos in the "Auction Manager" section of the "Services" message board on this site. There are many views expressed on this subject!
posted on March 15, 2001 11:03:54 PM new
ebay might see this as fee avoidence
AND IT is over charging you know what you doing , reverse it would you pay $5.00 postage
not get priority tracking and insurance still wouldn't cost five bucks instead you charge $5.00 when real cost 0.99 cents
nothing wrong??? same as a 1cent cd but hey
it's only $5.00 to shipped it
GOOD LUCK on you OVER CHARGING seller
should state all the facts in the shipping charges not just hey $5.00 for shipping thinking that they will get PRIORITY SHIPPING
instead of OVER charging
newbie bidders always fall for your TRICK
if bidders wouldn't BID you wouldn't keep doing the overcharging would you
you put it at $5.00 and get FREE shipping
but then you have to pay ebay more
thought so. it just another TRICK and there is no treat for the buyer
posted on March 16, 2001 05:23:45 AM new
I see a lot of assuming here & not just on the part of jimh1948's buyer.
All those who think a seller MUST put "shipping AND HANDLING" in their TOS as opposed to just "Shipping" or the seller cannot charge more than actual shipping costs, please show me in the ebay guidelines that this is against ebay rules.
(Big hint for you..it isn't there)
One thing I've learned from these AW boards as a buyer is never assume what the shipping method will be unless it's stated.
Is is aggravating to pay $5.00 & it arrives with $.99 postage? YES..BUT, if I only assumed it was being sent priority & didn't ask...it was MY mistake.
I state in my auctions "$3.50 priority shipping". That should be pretty clear.
However, when I see another auction which states "$3.50 shipping", I no longer assume it's for priority. If I'm interested in bidding & I have a concern about the shipping method, I ask.
Now, let's change this around a bit. Let's say the game had ended at $15.00. Would the $5.00 shipping charge look so out of whack then? Just because it ended for $1.00, the $5.00 charge tends to stand out a lot more.
Fee avoidance? Possibly.
But let's say he paid $2.00 for the shipping, $1.00 for the box (it's possible, given what some of the Office places charge) and added in another $.50 for wrap, peanuts, labels, etc. Now his costs are up to $3.50 to ship this item & the $5.00 doesn't quite seem as much like fee avoidance as it did before.
Nor does it look like he's trying to run to the bank w/his profits..a whopping $1.50. And yes, I'm making some "assumptions" in that example here as well.
Let me as you this..how many of you are willing to put YOUR auctions up on ebay for a whopping $1-3 profit BEFORE you pay the ebay fees, PP/BP fees, AW fees, picture hosting fees & anything else you might incur along the way?
posted on March 16, 2001 06:04:30 AM new
This was not fee avoidance and SafeHarbor will NEVER call it as such. $1.00 is a very reasonable OPENING bid. $5.00 is a very reasonable shipping and handling charge.
The only thing this seller did wrong was end up with a jerk for a bidder. Next time choose your bidders wisely...
posted on March 16, 2001 10:51:07 AM new
Let me state this clearly....my shipping terms stated: USPS - $5.00. not priority, not 1st class....also in the body of the auction......clear as day 5.00 shipping & handling.
Global Pops you're kinda harsh on me....ever buy anything from e-bay's premiere sight....go look at that mail opener.....shipping and handling 16.75...probably weighs just about as much as this sega game....
posted on March 16, 2001 11:23:15 AM new
Look,
Not a lot of bidders know what sellers know.
If the guy got the game for a penny I think he would still belly ache.
He trusted you to ship priority based on the price of shipping.
I know that it's wrong.
BUT, it's the customer. Now if you're a one off seller, no skin off your nose, eh?
But if you have an ongoing commitment to selling on ebay then you need to be plain: $5 s/h sent USPS Media Rate.
Bam.
Game over.
There is no need to tell the guy about your wear and tear as a seller, your costs, 'nuffin' because those are your terms, plain and simple.
Why?
So the customer doesn't feel ripped off.
OH I KNOW!!! the arguments.
I agree!!!!! BIDDERS SHOULD email first.
Not a lot of bidders come to this board to get a good education.
Ebay doesn't seem to spend a lot of energy really waving the flag to get a bidder to go through a required read of say http://pages.ebay.com/help/buyerguide/bidding-how.html before they bid.
Heck I have helped out several customers walk through the sitemap to find it after they have bid or even won and auction.
And remember, too, that bidders aren't like sellers: They may come to bid on a 1957 rare item because they just heard about ebay from a friend. They don't have to deal with rules and regs to get on board selling.
So while agree that the bidder was unreasonable, and I don't think it's your responsibility to "tell all," I do think you should make it clear enough so that you don't give a bidder the feeling of being ripped off, even though that may not be the case.
Good Luck.
ps in all honesty, you can spend all day and all night with the "value" debate, but as long as the bidder sees the price on the envelope versus the price he paid for shipping, there aren't a lot of arguments to convince him. Me, I can be convinced, but I'm not the guy who may never buy from you again because of it.
Did he get a good value? I have paid $8 s/h without a peep because I knew the market value for a filter for my camera. Did I bark when it came insured first class for less than $4?
Nary a word.
.....JUST PLEASE:
