posted on April 2, 2001 03:36:39 PM
Yes, mrpotatoheadd...
But, sadly, the very seller we are championing...more or less...fails to read. You don't think...maybe...this whole thread was some kind of fast speed angling for fish???
posted on April 2, 2001 03:38:36 PM
Who gives a rodent's tushie who get the $1.10!!!!! I would rather give it directly to the seller, mainly because of the instant refund, rather than as extra profit to the USPS so they can investigate from the doughnut shop and then deny your claim.
As for stating that it is "self-insured", WHY?!?!. As a code word to scammers and deadbeats, stating that you have absolutely NO resources for investigating claims????
Sure, he may be taking in extra profit most of the time, however, just a few claims can turn that completely around. And you can guarantee it if "self-insured" is added.
However, your state regulators may want their kickbacks to allow you to legally do this. Check with them...
posted on April 2, 2001 03:41:18 PM
Passing thoughts on pleasing customers:
The little old lady who just can't live without her little pink pills and demands the doctor keep giving them to her...never mind they are placebos.
The hungry guy who orders a hamburger at Bigburgersforya...it tasted great, did it hurt him it wasn't 100% beef? He did ask for a hamburger, remember? Think when his hunger was satisfied, he was displeased?
Or, the sellers who accept a $20 payment plus expenses gleefully for an item which plainly has a printed price tag of $9.95...Flat out, took your money. You offered it and it was accepted. Perhaps you didn't do your homework, you don't want to go in public, or you can't go for other reasons...Not my business. Now, how many of those have included something extra to make up the difference? A bonus of sorts? Was it deceptive to take the money? Did the buyer get what they paid for? Do those of you who feel negatively about self insuring just take the cash? Or do you include extra value to make up the difference. Maybe the bonus included costs 50 cents to the seller...it might cost someone else $5.
posted on April 2, 2001 03:44:57 PMIn the case the item get lost or damaged, I refund them the money out of my own pocket (including shipping), or inmediately send them a duplicate item if I have doubles.
The item is really insured, and in case it gets lost/ damaged, they will have their refund (bid price+shipping) in their mailbox in 3 days!
I don't think an instant refund counts as a deceptive practice that drives bidders away from online auctions.
The refund/ replacement policy is depending on feedback. With a newbie (10 or less feedback) I might wait 2-3 week from time of delivery, depending on location (I'm in CA).
With a star feedback, (with no negs for low feedbacks or a low neg ratio for high ones) I refund immediately, with instructions on sending payment again if the package eventually shows up.
You explanations lose all credibility when you keep contradicting yourself. First you refund/replace instantly, now you place conditions on it. Well, didn't the newbie pay you their $1.10, too?
Hey, mrpotatoheadd, I've got nothing against you so don't take this that way. But you're hanging in there right along with the rest of us, you know? If the shoe fits...
According to BJGrolle, the $1.10 I charge is excessive, and constanly makes the reference of the $150 weekly pocketed money, not taking into account the sheer amount of packages sent. For every one I sent, I have a loss at stake.
Knowing how the USPS handles their claims, how much would you pay for a hassle free insurance with instant refun/return by a reputable seller?
With a damaged item, the refund/replacement is inmediate
As for the lost/undelivered packages, if I started giving refunds to anyone who emailed me 5 days from the date I sent the item, I wouldn't be in business for long.
I give refunds to lost packages, not delayed ones.
posted on April 2, 2001 04:14:51 PMCould you enlighten us on why it's illegal? You must have some grounds on it, don't you?
I know you didn't ask me, and I don't claim to be an expert...however, I have had some experience with "self-insuring" in other areas so I'll take a stab at it.
The problem is, you are telling the buyer that they are purchasing insurance. In most if not all states, it is illegal to sell insurance without a license. If you are telling buyers they are buying insurance and you are not licensed with your state, you are probably commiting a crime on that basis alone. The fact of the matter is, for their payment of $1.10, you are agreeing to refund or replace a lost or damaged item...YOU ARE NOT SELLING LEGITIMATE INSURANCE. If I were you, I would check with your state insurance commissioner to verify this.
Second, you must understand how legitimate "self insuring" works. There are many companies who self insure in many areas (automobile, health, etc.). The thing is there are insurance laws they must follow for this to be legal. You must also understand that insurance laws are in place to protect the consumer. There are lots of things that COULD happen. For example, you said you ship hundreds of packages a week. What if you got a "claim" for every package you mailed out for 2 weeks? Sure, this probably WON'T happen, but it COULD. And if it did, could you afford to refund immediately on all of those packages? Yes, insurance laws take into account the most bizarre of situations. For that reason, even when a company self insures, they almost always have a legitimate insurance policy from a licensed insurance company to cover major losses in the event that one of these bizarre events were to actually occur. In the absence of that insurance policy, the company is usually required to post a bond with the state insurance commission to show proof of financial responsibility. Also, these companies are usually required to register with the state as being self insured...because insurance laws do apply to them.
Third, telling someone a "insured stamp white lie" is also illegal. First, as you are using USPS, that could be considered mail fraud. Second, you are telling the customer they actually received a specific insurance that YOU DID NOT PROVIDE which also makes it insurance fraud.
This information is in no way intended to be presented as fact, it is simply my opinion based on the knowledge I have of self insuring. It is also in no way meant to be bashing the originator of this thread, only to provide input on a question they presented. My advice is first to check with your state insurance commissioner to determine whether or not your practice is legal or not. Second, I would stop calling it "insurance"...as I don't believe that it is in a legal sense. Third, don't lie to your customers when they ask about the insurance stamp...that will only bring you a whole heap of trouble you don't need. After all, if they are inquiring about the missing insurance stamp, they are admitting that they have already received the package or they wouldn't know the stamp was missing. How much do you have to lose at that point?
posted on April 2, 2001 04:15:30 PM
Maybe you could say something like:
Insurance is $1.00 extra. We do not insure through the USPS, we insure through another means. Purchasing insurance will guarantee you will be refunded or have your item replaced if your item is lost or damaged during shipping.
That way you're not saying you're insuring through the USPS, but you are specifying that you use a different method and you guarantee their satisfaction.
posted on April 2, 2001 04:43:41 PM
Hello everyone,
Minnow - I hope you do not mind my post here but I thought I would clarify a few things.
Insurance is an industry that has very strict reuglations, both on the Federal and State level. You are not allowed to sell insurance without being licensed. Somewhat similar to selling a house without a real estate license. You have to take State tests, continued education etc. to keep up your license.
To verify that what I am telling you all you would need to do is telephone your State Attorney General's office.
The term self insurance does not mean charging customers for insurance. It solely means accepting the loss and refunding or replacing the item. The majority of companies with revenues in excess of 10 million a year self insure. Such as most large catalog companies, medical supplies etc. They do not charge you for insurance but will replace items if lost or damaged. They absorb the cost.
By charging customers for insurance you are saying that you are a licensed agent with an underwriter that will cover your losses or damage. Your customers could complain to the State you do business in and you can and would be open to criminal charges. I know that sounds harsh but it is reality and since you are anonymous I think you should know.
It really comes down to how your TOS are written. But directly charging for insurance without a license is illegal and should be avoided.
If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to post here or contact me direct.
posted on April 2, 2001 04:47:52 PM
If we're going to talk about trust in the relationship between the buyer and the seller, how about this...
The seller accepts the buyer's check, without grilling him about his bank account balance, trusting that it won't bounce. Why should it be so hard for the buyer to trust that the seller will make good on an insurance claim without calling his integrity into question over the manner in which he decides to provide that service?
posted on April 2, 2001 04:48:58 PM
"...how much would you pay for a hassle free insurance with instant refun/return by a reputable seller?"
I'm not exactly sure this is the point of most of the posts arguing against your way of self insuring on this board. I've stated personally that while I don't care for how you've handled this practice, I really have nothing against self insurance (assuming it's legal, something I have no idea about) and would even probably be willing to pay $1.10 to someone self insuring the package (at least to someone with feedback such as yours)so long as I knew that's where my $1.10 was going. I wouldn't have a problem with you pocketing it (although "pocketing" could be dangerous if you suddenly run into some back luck through the mail system), so long as I knew up front that you were indeed self insuring the package. Yes, the biggest problem I have is the lie.
And as much as escandyo would like to compare this to someone who takes $50 for a $5 item, it's not the same. In that case a bidder is at fault for not knowing the value of the item and the seller is only selling it at what the market will bear. The information is out there if the bidder had bothered to look. With this insurance system, whether you're a bidder with 5 years of experience or a newbie, you're going to be deceived by this practice, pure and simple. How can you do your homework when all the facts aren't present?
I don't think I'm holier than thou, but when someone comes onto a board bragging (and yes, I saw it as bragging as well) about how much he's getting off unsuspecting buyers from insurance, of which I could have been one in the future, a reaction such as mine HAD to be expected from buyers as well as quite a few sellers who see a potential customer of theirs possibly getting deceived and swearing off online auctions.
I know the world isn't fair and business is business, but why not TRY BJGrolle (sorry about the gender mixup earlier ) and toke's idea about being upfront with the bidders about being self insured and see how it goes? It sounds like you're already thousands ahead in the insurance "pot" so what really do you have to lose to try it for awhile and see if all the deadbeats and cheats come out of the woodwork? I'm sure your feedback speaks for itself as to whether they can trust you or not to supply a refund if something DOES occur so I'm kind of doubting your bidding will be affected much by it.
I just hope you can give it a try and hopefully you'll find most bidders aren't all evil and out to make a buck at the seller's expense. Some will, no doubt, but I think the negative to positive experiences will be almost microscopic in the scope of selling hundreds of items on ebay each week.
I can see nothing wrong with self insuring a package. If you charge $1.10 so what, the customer doesn't have to buy the insurance. Just so long as you handle any lost or damaged claims professionally you have done your job. Ever stop to think what the post office is making off that $1.10 ?
Gateway charges $70.00 to ship a notebook UPS ground, is that fraud? When you rent a car and they want to charge $19.95 a day for their self insurance, is that fraud?
No, I would not consider that fraud. BUT...if that car rental place told me I was paying $19.95 daily for insurance and that it was going to Nationwide Insurance and they actually pocketed the money - yes, I do believe that would be considered fraud.
posted on April 2, 2001 05:26:10 PM
You said that alrady...
According to both your posts, you say that you're a professional in the scam business, and that I, a rookie in the scam bussines, was giving you a bad name.
Anyone reading phbroz's posts knows that he is not calling himself a scam artist.
You, on the other hand, are very good at changing words around to benefit yourself - not only in your "insurance scam" but also here on the boards, apparently.
posted on April 2, 2001 05:45:40 PM
In your first breath: According to both your posts, you say that you're a professional in the scam business, and that I, a rookie in the scam bussines, was giving you a bad name.
In your second breath: I didn't say that phbroz said that directly. I just said that's what I understood by reading both posts.
posted on April 2, 2001 05:45:53 PMAccording to BJGrolle, the $1.10 I charge is excessive, and constanly makes the reference of the $150 weekly pocketed money, not taking into account the sheer amount of packages sent. For every one I sent, I have a loss at stake.
Oh poor you. Anyone who sells on eBay or anywhere is taking a risk that the customer might be dishonest and lie and say they never got the package, etc., etc...
So, if I understand this right, you said you've had only 1 lost package in the last 6 months. And your average sale might be $20, according to your first post. So if you ship around 130 packages per week and collect around $150 per week in "insurance" money (which some have now pointed out might be illegal), then you've collected around $3900.00 in the last six months to pay out perhaps one $20 claim. You know, maybe you really should be in the insurance business, because they probably don't do nearly that well.
And even if you lost one $20 package per month, you're still collecting around $600 per month to pay out one claim.
You don't like my talking about the numbers you yourself posted? Too bad.
You'd have to make an awful lot of refunds before that amount would look justified IMO.
Oh, I myself understand the risks involved in doing business on auctions as well as anyone I guess and I constantly learn something new from people here at AW. I accept those risks as a natural part of doing business and see no need to conceal information from my customers and lie about it later to make myself feel better about shipping out those packages and taking those risks.
posted on April 2, 2001 06:43:45 PM
I completely understand going to these measures. I am currently down over $1000 in refunds to customers that have not been repaid by the post office (Canadian)
Although all of these lost or damaged items
were sent with insurance, the post office plays the stall game to discourage claims, them demands reams of paper work and then tells me insurance does not apply to "fragile" items. What I ask, constitutes a fragile item? Paraphrased: Anything they say is fragile. They have managed to break cast iron. I have certainly thought of self insuring, as the extra amount I have paid the post office over all my items would have more than covered this amount. I will probably have to file in small claims court, further time and effort taken away from the day to day business. I would very much like to hear what buyers think of self insured sellers and the legalities involved. Isn't insurance regulated in the US and Canada?
